WVU is used to last minute replacements after UCF bailed on us this year. If ECU insists on a home and home, I don't see the contract being extended beyond the current one. The administration has been upfront that they plan on 7 home games a year. That means 2 home and homes(already scheduled through 2011), 2 2 for 1's (Marshall being one of them), and 1 one and done(MAC or 1-AA).

It's not reneging if there is a buy out clause.

And if ECU goes 8-3, 9-2, 10-1, 11-0 in the next four seasons, I guarrantee that you'd want to have something to do with them then.

I guess legally ECU can opt out of the game. But is it the responsible, fair thing to do? NO.

Hell will freeze over before ECU goes 8-3, 9-2, 10-1, and 11-0 the next 4 years. It's time to return to the real world.

Absolutely! it's the right thing to do! If it was UofL, I'd have them do the exact same thing. You HAVE to do what is in the best interest of your program. That's the bottom line. Louisville has bought out games in the past. It was the right thing for the program. Look where we are as an athletic program now. I applaud ECU for standing up for themselves. You have to do what is you the best interest of YOUR program.

Army56Mike Wrote:Absolutely! it's the right thing to do! If it was UofL, I'd have them do the exact same thing. You HAVE to do what is in the best interest of your program. That's the bottom line. Louisville has bought out games in the past. It was the right thing for the program. Look where we are as an athletic program now. I applaud ECU for standing up for themselves. You have to do what is you the best interest of YOUR program.

If Louisvile were the school that got reneged on, you would feel totally different about the situation. But then again, since you love cusa so much, you would probably be ok with it.

WacoBearcat Wrote:Well I think 2-1 are crap too. But no-one put a gun to ECU's head and made them sign it. Reneging on the game, not once, but twice communicate volumes to me about ECU, and its leadership.

Frankly, I don't want anything to do with that low-class bunch.

Syracuse ECU series (one game remaining in on the contract in Syracuse)

10 games

5 in Greenville
5 in Syracuse

Hardly 2 for 1's

As I see it, the issue isn't - does ECU have the right to opt out of the final game. Obviously with the buyout clause, it does.

What ECU did was to try and use the previously committed to game as leverage to get another series from Syracuse - "if you want us to honor our agreement with you, we will, as long as you agree to future home-and-home series with us".

Some in this thread see absolutely nothing wrong with this. After all, every school has to look out for themselves. And while this is true to a certain extent, the plain truth about scheduling is that it is a give-and-take, looking out for mutual interests type of thing.

And the ECU-SU series is a perfect example of how one institution operates versus the other. For a little background history, the agreement between the schools was reached well over a decade and a half ago when Syracuse was the 'name school' and ECU wasn't even on the national radar. To demonstrate this even further, at the time ECU had difficulty getting 5 home games scheduled in an 11-game schedule.

Both VT and SU agreed to long term 11-game series with ECU that gave them only a one game advantage. I believe, WVU kept with the traditional 2-for-1 - you know the same WVU team that Holland is trumpeting as being in their best interest to continue scheduling.

Anyway, as the result of a number of the 2-for-1s ECU was normally getting at that time, it was having difficulty getting enough 'home' games for its schedule, so they asked the Orange if they would agree to three straight games in consecutive years (92, 93, 94) at their place. Which the Orange did. After all, this would just mean ECU would be playing at Syracuse in 95, 96, and 97.

Then ECU backed out of the 96 game at Syracuse for the same reason - a game at SU on their schedule would have meant only 4 home games and they were having no luck getting other teams to be flexible. At this point in the 11 game series Syracuse (the more nationally prominent team - who had no problems scheduling other elite teams) had played 2 home games against the Pirates and 4 away games.

In 1997, ECU played at Syracuse. ECU then asked for a two year postponement in the series because it was starting to play a full C-USA schedule in 1998. Again, Syracuse understood and didn't have a problem with this. VT wanted their last game and they got it.

The series resumed in 2000 and 2001 with each side getting to play at home leaving only the game at Syracuse remaining.

ECU was scheduled to play us in 2002 at the Carrier Dome, but pulled out at the last minute resulting in a mad scramble. As a result we wound up with Rhode Island on the schedule. Syracuse, who with time can schedule just about any team in the nation, had to settle for Rhode Island because of ECU again 'looking out for its best interests'.

In 2003, when we were scrambling to fill holes in the 2004 schedule due to Miami and VT leaving for the ACC, SU turned to ECU again, but they were unable to accomodate. Of course, ECU wasn't the only school that 'looked out for their best interests', thankfully not all schools think like that. FSU came to the rescue for our major home game and most on this board recall the hoops Cincinnati went through that helped Syracuse come up with a workable schedule.

Three times before in the ECU-SU series, Syracuse didn't think about its best interest, but was willing to work with ECU on achieving mutual interests. Now ECU wants to use that final game to try and leverage a future series from Syracuse. A series Syracuse probably would have agreed to, if ECU honored their commitment.

But to try and blackmail the Orange into the series using the other game as leverage? Obviously this is something the current AD finds insulting. And I know Jake C would have felt the same way.

Terry Holland would have simply been much better off saying, things aren't working out, we will buy the game out rather than just keep it out there hanging.

His rationalization is weak and will, no doubt, come back to bite him in the rearend. And I'm not even referring to any conference expansion. Because ultimately, when ECU gets 'good again', why would it be in any BCS conference team's 'best interests' to schedule them? Sure they are scheduling them now - because everyone thinks they are an easy mark. But what happens if they should get good again?

Look for a lot of buyouts then TH

Cheers,
Neil

Doubtful we will have any such problems in the future. UNC and NCSU now realize a series with us is more valuable than flying out to play Utah or playing Furman and getting beat. Attitudes have changed to the west from our recent series. Everyone has decided they like to make money and have games fans can travel to. Duke and Wake know we will bring 15,000 to their stadium. Hell that is why the ticket prices for the ECU game is more than the games against Maryland, Clemson and some other "Name Schools" as you say, Wake plays this year. All the ACC NC teams had a policy of not playing us at home, but we hit a point where they can't demand that anymore and they are not going to miss the revenue that can be generated by the game now.

Virginia Tech plays us for the next 8 years straight home and home. and played us 11 times from 1987-2000 and now 8 more. This is a rich series and will not dry up. Don't worry about us getting home games. We are more than fine in the future. The days of being an Indy are long gone and that was a different time period one in which schduling was more difficult anyway. There were not as many teams There wasn't a MAC close by for us we could just go buy a game from, the ACC wouldn't play us, there was no Sun Belt. We were on an island but we still did ok.

Spin it like you want Syracuse was hardly the first "name" school that played in Greenville. Miami came to Greenville in 1987 one of the years they won the national championship as well as the following year in 1988 and several other times as well in the early 80's. West Virginia, South Carolina, Florida State and Pitt came to Greenville in the 80's. Others backed out on us like LSU. We were getting some major teams into Greenville before Syracuse.

No one gives anyone anything, you guys would have gotten 2 for 1's, 3 for 1's or guarantee games that we played at the time IF you had the leverage for those better deal. Hell we were giving them to Miami, S. Carolina, West Virginia, LSU, Penn State, Missiouri, Washington and all the major teams we played at the time those deals. The exact same time period we signed that deal with you. You did not have the leverage they did to get anything better than 5 for 6 or you would have gotten those types of deals from us as well back then. In the future Terry Holland has said we will only play home and home or possibly one on a neutral site if it is a long series. The West Virginia 2 for 1 deals have been on the books forever. If they don't want to play on 1 for 1 terms they can look elsewhere as well, because that is the new standard set by Holland.

Omni,

Thanks for the historical perspective here. I now understand more fully why CUSE fans are not happy with ECU. I agree with you as well that the big reason why ECU is getting some of these 1 + 1 deals is that ECU is an easy win. IF, and that's an incredibly big IF, ECU returns to respectability, the Pirates may find some of its new scheduling partners backing out of games with buyout clauses, just like it did to you.

WacoBearcat Wrote:Omni,

Thanks for the historical perspective here. I now understand more fully why CUSE fans are not happy with ECU. I agree with you as well that the big reason why ECU is getting some of these 1 + 1 deals is that ECU is an easy win. IF, and that's an incredibly big IF, ECU returns to respectability, the Pirates may find some of its new scheduling partners backing out of games with buyout clauses, just like it did to you.

ECU fans might find that offensive, being viewed as an easy win, but for years in C-USA UC was viewed as that. Teams like Boston College and Virginia Tech and others viewed us as easy wins. But, during the mid to last 90s, when UC went up to Kansas, Virginia Tech and Boston College and beat them on their home fields, then went to Ohio State and gave them a scare, and then went to Wisconsin and beat them at Nippert and then almost beat them on their home field, and then almost beat Kansas State that hurt UC's chances of scheduling teams outside of Ohio State and Big East teams. And when UC beat West Virginia on their home field we probably would have had a nightmare of a time scheduling home and home games if it wasn't for the Big East invitation. Perception is reality unfortunately.

WacoBearcat Wrote:I agree with you as well that the big reason why ECU is getting some of these 1 + 1 deals is that ECU is an easy win.

That just show what you guys know about our schedule. All of the West Virginia games were signed in the 90's when we were playing well None of those are Holland games. The large majority of UNC and NC State games were also scheduled in the late 90's when we were battling them as top team in the state.

Holland only added two extra games with UNC. He also added UVA, Navy and Virginia Tech. Tech has played us for years when we were very good and still signed on for 8 more years. You think even if we get pretty good again they are going to be scared??. :laugh:

StillJonesing Wrote:

WacoBearcat Wrote:I agree with you as well that the big reason why ECU is getting some of these 1 + 1 deals is that ECU is an easy win.

That just show what you guys know about our schedule. All of the West Virginia games were signed in the 90's when we were playing well None of those are Holland games. The large majority of UNC and NC State games were also scheduled in the late 90's when we were battling them as top team in the state.

Holland only added two extra games with UNC. He also added UVA, Navy and Virginia Tech. Tech has played us for years when we were very good and still signed on for 8 more years. You think even if we get pretty good again they are going to be scared??. :laugh:

Funny how you can't refute anything in Neil's post

Bottomline: ECU lost several allies in the Big East over this

Quote:Doubtful we will have any such problems in the future. UNC and NCSU now realize a series with us is more valuable than flying out to play Utah or playing Furman and getting beat. Attitudes have changed to the west from our recent series.

Yep, as long as one of ECU's 'home' games is in Charlotte.

You do realize that the ACC is trying to soothe over hurt feelings with Charlotte cough*bankers*cough for not getting the ACC championship game.

Quote:Duke and Wake know we will bring 15,000 to their stadium. Hell that is why the ticket prices for the ECU game is more than the games against Maryland, Clemson and some other "Name Schools" as you say, Wake plays this year. All the ACC NC teams had a policy of not playing us at home, but we hit a point where they can't demand that anymore and they are not going to miss the revenue that can be generated by the game now.

Since Wake just scheduled the series with Syracuse, it would seem they are telling Holland the same thing the Orange are - buy the game out - we don't need ECU. So, while I certainly agree more ECU fans will travel to Winston-Salem then Orange fans will, apparently the Demon Deacons are willing to miss the revenue based on the principles involved.

Quote:Virginia Tech plays us for the next 8 years straight home and home and played us 11 times from 1987-2000 and now 8 more. This is a rich series and will not dry up.

Of course, they are getting one of the 'home' games that Syracuse and Wake Forest lost by not agreeing to schedule a future series with them. So, in reality it is a 5 for 4 deal, until your AD holds that last game hostage for another future series :rolleyes:

Quote:Don't worry about us getting home games. We are more than fine in the future. The days of being an Indy are long gone and that was a different time period one in which schduling was more difficult anyway. There were not as many teams There wasn't a MAC close by for us we could just go buy a game from, the ACC wouldn't play us, there was no Sun Belt. We were on an island but we still did ok.

It was during this 'island' period that Syracuse helped ECU out, remember, by scheduling three straight at ECU when the Pirates were having difficulty getting 5 home games.

Quote:Spin it like you want Syracuse was hardly the first "name" school that played in Greenville. Miami came to Greenville in 1987 one of the years they won the national championship as well as the following year in 1988 and several other times as well in the early 80's. West Virginia, South Carolina, Florida State and Pitt came to Greenville in the 80's. Others backed out on us like LSU. We were getting some major teams into Greenville before Syracuse.

Yes, but they were the other indies with us. Those games dried up for the most part when those teams joined conferences. By 1992-97 before joining C-USA and ceasing to be 'an island' the only name teams ECU had coming to Greenville were Syracuse and West Virginia (VT didn't become a name team until 1999 with Vick). And of those two name teams, it was Syracuse that was willing to help the Pirates out in terms of getting a name program in the home stadium for three consecutive years.

As for 'spinning', I think we know who the real spin-doctor is here - it's Terry Holland.

Quote:In the future Terry Holland has said we will only play home and home or possibly one on a neutral site if it is a long series. The West Virginia 2 for 1 deals have been on the books forever. If they don't want to play on 1 for 1 terms they can look elsewhere as well, because that is the new standard set by Holland.

And all I'm saying is get those home games in first, because when your AD starts making demands ECU isn't in the position to back up, don't be surprised to see a lot of 'buy-outs' coming the Pirates way.

Cheers,
Neil

Army56Mike Wrote:Good job ECU. I am behind you on this one. I think 2 for 1's are crap! I got so sick in the early days of UofL having to do 2 for 1's. If you had a buy out clause, than you had every right to do what is in the best interest of your program. Everyone must respect that.

And don't worry about the Big East. They will do what is in their best interest. If, 5 years from now, you are the most competitive program, you will get invited, because it's in the best interest of the conference.

I'm tired of people getting their pride and feelings bent out of shape. It's stupid.

So, good job Pirates, job well done. Sounds like you guys are on the right track.

It has nothing to do with pride and all that crap. It has to do with East Carolina pulling a stunt that hurt Syracuse and eventually Cincinnati. If you don't want a 2 for 1 deal don't sign the contract. This goes beyond 2 for 1 deals. Even if East Carolina is competitive it isn't a given that they'll get invited. It didn't get Memphis invited so nothing is a given. Especially when you're burning potential allies.

Army56Mike Wrote:Absolutely! it's the right thing to do!  If it was UofL, I'd have them do the exact same thing.  You HAVE to do what is in the best interest of your program.  That's the bottom line.  Louisville has bought out games in the past.  It was the right thing for the program.  Look where we are as an athletic program now.  I applaud ECU for standing up for themselves.  You have to do what is you the best interest of YOUR program.

This isn't about standing up for yourself, this is about pulling out a deal at the last second because you don't want to fulfill your end of the bargain and travel on the road. How is it in their best interest in taking years to complete a contract THEY SIGNED, waiting until the last second and screwing up Syracuse's schedule last year and then making scheduling for next year a pain? How is that "Standing up for yourself". I guarantee, that if Florida State somehow was able to "buy out" a contract and not come to Louisville, you would be calling them cowards and gutless and saying that Louisville should never play them again. Now imagine if a school refused to fulfill their end of the bargain and hold you up for a future series that you may or may not want? That's why Syracuse is p*ssed, and rightfully so.

I can guarantee you that Terry Holland wouldn't have pulled this stunt if it was a ECU home game.

WacoBearcat Wrote:The Big East does not need to associate with a low-class operation like East Carolina.

WOW...REALLY...that is funny coming from a cincy fan. WOW :laugh: