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A new tax coming down the pike?
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HtownOrange Offline
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Post: #21
RE: A new tax coming down the pike?
You might try looking into definitions and exploration. Proven reserves are limited to what is already proven and economical to extract. As oil prices increase, these reserves also increase because more oil is now economically viable for exploitation.

As to exploration, these areas are not usually developed due to political reasons. There is oil available, but when the government increases the the costs of extraction, or denies drilling in the first place, these ressources are not included in proven reserves.

Further, there is much more oil of the coast. I am concerned for the environment and do not want wreckless behavior. I point out that the U.S. has one of the best environmental records while we allow Mexico (whom we cannot stop anyway) as well as others to drill in the Gulf that our government bans from U.S. companies.

Sorry CB, your arguments fail. Cuba has a deal with the Chinese and others to drill in the areas shared with the U.S. As we are not drilling, we get none of our oil and they get to pollute all they want. The Chinese are not noted for their environmental concern. The net result is that we lose natural resources and we get poluuted all in the name of saving the environment. If for no other reason, we should drill off Florida and the GoM to avoid pollution from other nations.

I am not solely interested in carbon based energy, but I understand what it takes to develop new technologies and money is not the only answer. Physics inhibit may advances, especially in electricty and electronics. Patience and time are usually required to overcome these issues in technologies.
05-10-2011 09:41 AM
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HtownOrange Offline
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Post: #22
RE: A new tax coming down the pike?
Passenger trains in the northeast are great ideas. They may also work in the southern half of the east coast and possibly in So. Cal.

Another non-carbon based electricity generation is nuclear, but politically, nobody has the cajones to push this.
05-10-2011 09:44 AM
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bitcruncher Offline
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Post: #23
RE: A new tax coming down the pike?
Exploring technologies like WVU's PRT, which was shelved long ago, could be another option. The PRT uses almost no power. It generates nearly as much power as it uses. So it's cost effective, and the only manpower needed is that which is required for maintenance and repair. You could convert an entire city to this kind of technology, without feeling any loss of mobility from not having a car...
05-10-2011 09:58 AM
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Cubanbull Offline
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Post: #24
RE: A new tax coming down the pike?
(05-10-2011 09:41 AM)HtownOrange Wrote:  You might try looking into definitions and exploration. Proven reserves are limited to what is already proven and economical to extract. As oil prices increase, these reserves also increase because more oil is now economically viable for exploitation.

As to exploration, these areas are not usually developed due to political reasons. There is oil available, but when the government increases the the costs of extraction, or denies drilling in the first place, these ressources are not included in proven reserves.

Further, there is much more oil of the coast. I am concerned for the environment and do not want wreckless behavior. I point out that the U.S. has one of the best environmental records while we allow Mexico (whom we cannot stop anyway) as well as others to drill in the Gulf that our government bans from U.S. companies.

Sorry CB, your arguments fail. Cuba has a deal with the Chinese and others to drill in the areas shared with the U.S. As we are not drilling, we get none of our oil and they get to pollute all they want. The Chinese are not noted for their environmental concern. The net result is that we lose natural resources and we get poluuted all in the name of saving the environment. If for no other reason, we should drill off Florida and the GoM to avoid pollution from other nations.

I am not solely interested in carbon based energy, but I understand what it takes to develop new technologies and money is not the only answer. Physics inhibit may advances, especially in electricty and electronics. Patience and time are usually required to overcome these issues in technologies.

My whole point is that we cannot drill our way out of this problem. the US must work harder at alternatives to oil and also become more efficient in its use. as for drilling arounf Florida, I undrstand what you say about those other nations drilling in that area, but if we drill in those areas we lose all right to push them not to do so. Im not naive that we can do that but Im also not sold on let us do it so if its going to get polluted we at least get ours. The state of Florida relies almost entirely on tourism a huge oil spill no matter who it comes from would be a horrendous economic downturn to our state, that sometimes its hard for those from other states to understand.
05-10-2011 03:48 PM
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USFMike Offline
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Post: #25
RE: A new tax coming down the pike?
htownorange is right, exploration in america is severely hampered for political reasons and other countries take advantage of that. and if you think about it, it's hypocritical for us to restrict american companies from exploring and than turn around and allow countries like brazil and china (countries with terrible environmental records) to drill as they please on our own coasts.
05-10-2011 11:48 PM
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USFMike Offline
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Post: #26
RE: A new tax coming down the pike?
(05-10-2011 03:48 PM)Cubanbull Wrote:  
(05-10-2011 09:41 AM)HtownOrange Wrote:  You might try looking into definitions and exploration. Proven reserves are limited to what is already proven and economical to extract. As oil prices increase, these reserves also increase because more oil is now economically viable for exploitation.

As to exploration, these areas are not usually developed due to political reasons. There is oil available, but when the government increases the the costs of extraction, or denies drilling in the first place, these ressources are not included in proven reserves.

Further, there is much more oil of the coast. I am concerned for the environment and do not want wreckless behavior. I point out that the U.S. has one of the best environmental records while we allow Mexico (whom we cannot stop anyway) as well as others to drill in the Gulf that our government bans from U.S. companies.

Sorry CB, your arguments fail. Cuba has a deal with the Chinese and others to drill in the areas shared with the U.S. As we are not drilling, we get none of our oil and they get to pollute all they want. The Chinese are not noted for their environmental concern. The net result is that we lose natural resources and we get poluuted all in the name of saving the environment. If for no other reason, we should drill off Florida and the GoM to avoid pollution from other nations.

I am not solely interested in carbon based energy, but I understand what it takes to develop new technologies and money is not the only answer. Physics inhibit may advances, especially in electricty and electronics. Patience and time are usually required to overcome these issues in technologies.

My whole point is that we cannot drill our way out of this problem. the US must work harder at alternatives to oil and also become more efficient in its use. as for drilling arounf Florida, I undrstand what you say about those other nations drilling in that area, but if we drill in those areas we lose all right to push them not to do so. Im not naive that we can do that but Im also not sold on let us do it so if its going to get polluted we at least get ours. The state of Florida relies almost entirely on tourism a huge oil spill no matter who it comes from would be a horrendous economic downturn to our state, that sometimes its hard for those from other states to understand.

what alternative energy sources do you think can replace oil/natural gas/coal in america?
05-10-2011 11:50 PM
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miko33 Offline
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Post: #27
RE: A new tax coming down the pike?
(05-10-2011 03:48 PM)Cubanbull Wrote:  
(05-10-2011 09:41 AM)HtownOrange Wrote:  You might try looking into definitions and exploration. Proven reserves are limited to what is already proven and economical to extract. As oil prices increase, these reserves also increase because more oil is now economically viable for exploitation.

As to exploration, these areas are not usually developed due to political reasons. There is oil available, but when the government increases the the costs of extraction, or denies drilling in the first place, these ressources are not included in proven reserves.

Further, there is much more oil of the coast. I am concerned for the environment and do not want wreckless behavior. I point out that the U.S. has one of the best environmental records while we allow Mexico (whom we cannot stop anyway) as well as others to drill in the Gulf that our government bans from U.S. companies.

Sorry CB, your arguments fail. Cuba has a deal with the Chinese and others to drill in the areas shared with the U.S. As we are not drilling, we get none of our oil and they get to pollute all they want. The Chinese are not noted for their environmental concern. The net result is that we lose natural resources and we get poluuted all in the name of saving the environment. If for no other reason, we should drill off Florida and the GoM to avoid pollution from other nations.

I am not solely interested in carbon based energy, but I understand what it takes to develop new technologies and money is not the only answer. Physics inhibit may advances, especially in electricty and electronics. Patience and time are usually required to overcome these issues in technologies.

My whole point is that we cannot drill our way out of this problem. the US must work harder at alternatives to oil and also become more efficient in its use. as for drilling arounf Florida, I undrstand what you say about those other nations drilling in that area, but if we drill in those areas we lose all right to push them not to do so. Im not naive that we can do that but Im also not sold on let us do it so if its going to get polluted we at least get ours. The state of Florida relies almost entirely on tourism a huge oil spill no matter who it comes from would be a horrendous economic downturn to our state, that sometimes its hard for those from other states to understand.

I agree that you can't rely on fossil fuels forever and that alternative energy must be found. However, making the government the referee to choose which direction research should take for alternative energy is scary. Looking at the ethanol situation alone, this proves that the government has no business directing energy research. Ethanol is nothing more than a kick back to agriculture for one thing and it is an additive that requires more fuel to be consumed overall than if 100% gasoline was used in our vehicles. In the end, the gov't would play politics instead of spurring true innovation that would put the country on sound energy footing.
05-11-2011 06:10 AM
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brista21 Offline
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Post: #28
RE: A new tax coming down the pike?
(05-11-2011 06:10 AM)miko33 Wrote:  In the end, the gov't would play politics instead of spurring true innovation that would put the country on sound energy footing.

In this Second Gilded Age you may be right. However, we can point to successful instances of the Federal Government spurring true innovation as with the space race which spawned an unbelievable amount of innovation which is still reverberating today. OTOH, very different political climate where most everyone was more concerned with moving the Nation forward rather than silly wedge issues or monomaniacally obsessed with nominal tax rates.

And for the record I consider Natural Gas a big part of the short-term and midterm energy strategies. Long term I'd like to get off of that too, but natural gas is the cleanest fossil fuel/hydrocarbon going and can be extensively used in the mean time. The real key to shifting oil and especially natural gas production back here is underscoring it as a national security threat to continue importing over half of our oil.
05-11-2011 09:11 AM
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miko33 Offline
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Post: #29
RE: A new tax coming down the pike?
(05-11-2011 09:11 AM)brista21 Wrote:  
(05-11-2011 06:10 AM)miko33 Wrote:  In the end, the gov't would play politics instead of spurring true innovation that would put the country on sound energy footing.

In this Second Gilded Age you may be right. However, we can point to successful instances of the Federal Government spurring true innovation as with the space race which spawned an unbelievable amount of innovation which is still reverberating today. OTOH, very different political climate where most everyone was more concerned with moving the Nation forward rather than silly wedge issues or monomaniacally obsessed with nominal tax rates.

And for the record I consider Natural Gas a big part of the short-term and midterm energy strategies. Long term I'd like to get off of that too, but natural gas is the cleanest fossil fuel/hydrocarbon going and can be extensively used in the mean time. The real key to shifting oil and especially natural gas production back here is underscoring it as a national security threat to continue importing over half of our oil.

In your example, the gov't focused on "providing for the common defense" of the country, which is an authorized power granted by our laws. It's a good thing when the gov't stays within its own sandbox, because as you point out the public benefited from the space race (which was really based on improving the military). But the gov't is not good at controlling the economy. Energy security for the country is a national security issue in that it is within the best interest of our economy that the U.S. has access to a reliable supply of energy. In a situation like this, the private sector is better equipped to pick the "winners" and "losers" of alternative energy ideas because the markets will tell us pretty quickly which ideas make sense and which are not feasible. Energy security, as far as the gov't role, is to sit back and play ensure that the free market is operating properly and from a literal standpoint to set up the strategic oil reserve for the military to have enough energy to fight a war for a short to medium term and win.
05-11-2011 09:52 AM
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Cubanbull Offline
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Post: #30
RE: A new tax coming down the pike?
(05-10-2011 11:50 PM)USFMike Wrote:  
(05-10-2011 03:48 PM)Cubanbull Wrote:  
(05-10-2011 09:41 AM)HtownOrange Wrote:  You might try looking into definitions and exploration. Proven reserves are limited to what is already proven and economical to extract. As oil prices increase, these reserves also increase because more oil is now economically viable for exploitation.

As to exploration, these areas are not usually developed due to political reasons. There is oil available, but when the government increases the the costs of extraction, or denies drilling in the first place, these ressources are not included in proven reserves.

Further, there is much more oil of the coast. I am concerned for the environment and do not want wreckless behavior. I point out that the U.S. has one of the best environmental records while we allow Mexico (whom we cannot stop anyway) as well as others to drill in the Gulf that our government bans from U.S. companies.

Sorry CB, your arguments fail. Cuba has a deal with the Chinese and others to drill in the areas shared with the U.S. As we are not drilling, we get none of our oil and they get to pollute all they want. The Chinese are not noted for their environmental concern. The net result is that we lose natural resources and we get poluuted all in the name of saving the environment. If for no other reason, we should drill off Florida and the GoM to avoid pollution from other nations.

I am not solely interested in carbon based energy, but I understand what it takes to develop new technologies and money is not the only answer. Physics inhibit may advances, especially in electricty and electronics. Patience and time are usually required to overcome these issues in technologies.

My whole point is that we cannot drill our way out of this problem. the US must work harder at alternatives to oil and also become more efficient in its use. as for drilling arounf Florida, I undrstand what you say about those other nations drilling in that area, but if we drill in those areas we lose all right to push them not to do so. Im not naive that we can do that but Im also not sold on let us do it so if its going to get polluted we at least get ours. The state of Florida relies almost entirely on tourism a huge oil spill no matter who it comes from would be a horrendous economic downturn to our state, that sometimes its hard for those from other states to understand.

what alternative energy sources do you think can replace oil/natural gas/coal in america?

Right now? None. and i think natural gas and coal should be used more in the short term, but we also must continue to work on wind, solar and nuclear. And as I said before we need to do a better job at being more efficient on how we use oil. To just say we are going to drill our way out of our oil shortage will NOT solve the problem.
05-11-2011 10:18 AM
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HtownOrange Offline
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Post: #31
RE: A new tax coming down the pike?
(05-10-2011 03:48 PM)Cubanbull Wrote:  
(05-10-2011 09:41 AM)HtownOrange Wrote:  You might try looking into definitions and exploration. Proven reserves are limited to what is already proven and economical to extract. As oil prices increase, these reserves also increase because more oil is now economically viable for exploitation.

As to exploration, these areas are not usually developed due to political reasons. There is oil available, but when the government increases the the costs of extraction, or denies drilling in the first place, these ressources are not included in proven reserves.

Further, there is much more oil of the coast. I am concerned for the environment and do not want wreckless behavior. I point out that the U.S. has one of the best environmental records while we allow Mexico (whom we cannot stop anyway) as well as others to drill in the Gulf that our government bans from U.S. companies.

Sorry CB, your arguments fail. Cuba has a deal with the Chinese and others to drill in the areas shared with the U.S. As we are not drilling, we get none of our oil and they get to pollute all they want. The Chinese are not noted for their environmental concern. The net result is that we lose natural resources and we get poluuted all in the name of saving the environment. If for no other reason, we should drill off Florida and the GoM to avoid pollution from other nations.

I am not solely interested in carbon based energy, but I understand what it takes to develop new technologies and money is not the only answer. Physics inhibit may advances, especially in electricty and electronics. Patience and time are usually required to overcome these issues in technologies.

My whole point is that we cannot drill our way out of this problem. the US must work harder at alternatives to oil and also become more efficient in its use. as for drilling arounf Florida, I undrstand what you say about those other nations drilling in that area, but if we drill in those areas we lose all right to push them not to do so. Im not naive that we can do that but Im also not sold on let us do it so if its going to get polluted we at least get ours. The state of Florida relies almost entirely on tourism a huge oil spill no matter who it comes from would be a horrendous economic downturn to our state, that sometimes its hard for those from other states to understand.

I understand your point, but it is a "micro" point applied to a "macro" issue. Regardless of whether we drill or not, we cannot stop Cuba, or any of their partners doing so on Cuba's behalf, from drilling. Nor can we force Cuba, or its partners, to pay for a cleanup, short of war. Common sense also dictates that since 1/2 half of the opil in shared waters is ours, we should utilize it to our benefit.

The Federal government owns the U.S. rights to that oil and makes a profit for leasing the rights to oil companies, usually 50/50 or thereabouts. Failure to utilize the oil is really stealing money from the Americans as it is ours and each administration that fails to utilize the oil for America's benefit is denying Americans benefits/tax relief. This amounts to a breach of a fiduciary duty of the President/Congress/Administration against Americans.
05-11-2011 11:06 AM
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HtownOrange Offline
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Post: #32
RE: A new tax coming down the pike?
(05-11-2011 10:18 AM)Cubanbull Wrote:  
(05-10-2011 11:50 PM)USFMike Wrote:  
(05-10-2011 03:48 PM)Cubanbull Wrote:  
(05-10-2011 09:41 AM)HtownOrange Wrote:  You might try looking into definitions and exploration. Proven reserves are limited to what is already proven and economical to extract. As oil prices increase, these reserves also increase because more oil is now economically viable for exploitation.

As to exploration, these areas are not usually developed due to political reasons. There is oil available, but when the government increases the the costs of extraction, or denies drilling in the first place, these ressources are not included in proven reserves.

Further, there is much more oil of the coast. I am concerned for the environment and do not want wreckless behavior. I point out that the U.S. has one of the best environmental records while we allow Mexico (whom we cannot stop anyway) as well as others to drill in the Gulf that our government bans from U.S. companies.

Sorry CB, your arguments fail. Cuba has a deal with the Chinese and others to drill in the areas shared with the U.S. As we are not drilling, we get none of our oil and they get to pollute all they want. The Chinese are not noted for their environmental concern. The net result is that we lose natural resources and we get poluuted all in the name of saving the environment. If for no other reason, we should drill off Florida and the GoM to avoid pollution from other nations.

I am not solely interested in carbon based energy, but I understand what it takes to develop new technologies and money is not the only answer. Physics inhibit may advances, especially in electricty and electronics. Patience and time are usually required to overcome these issues in technologies.

My whole point is that we cannot drill our way out of this problem. the US must work harder at alternatives to oil and also become more efficient in its use. as for drilling arounf Florida, I undrstand what you say about those other nations drilling in that area, but if we drill in those areas we lose all right to push them not to do so. Im not naive that we can do that but Im also not sold on let us do it so if its going to get polluted we at least get ours. The state of Florida relies almost entirely on tourism a huge oil spill no matter who it comes from would be a horrendous economic downturn to our state, that sometimes its hard for those from other states to understand.

what alternative energy sources do you think can replace oil/natural gas/coal in america?

Right now? None. and i think natural gas and coal should be used more in the short term, but we also must continue to work on wind, solar and nuclear. And as I said before we need to do a better job at being more efficient on how we use oil. To just say we are going to drill our way out of our oil shortage will NOT solve the problem.

Drilling our own oil is a means to diminish importation of oil, put Americans to work, increase the tax basis, increase income to the Federal government (lease and royalties). This is an admitted short term answer.

Building enough nuclear plants will take years, no debate there and no one wants nuclear plants done wrong. Developing wind, solar, wave and any other technologies takes time. We need a short term answer.

As to ethanol (mentioned by someone else), the corn used could be feeding the world which is hurting right now. Food prices are up as we no longer have surplusses. A solution here might be to either cancel ethanol altogether or at least from corn, use a more efficient source (sugarbeets, switchgrass), encourage corn production for sale across the seas, decrease farm subsidies (since the farmers can grow for overseas sales - just sayin'...
05-11-2011 11:25 AM
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HtownOrange Offline
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Post: #33
RE: A new tax coming down the pike?
CB,

Sorry, I forgot to address you claim re: a spill and its affect on tourism. Basically, this past year has shown many faults with the emergency planning. The spill was made worse by failings of BP, the current administration, and the several states. Don't read too much into my cristicism as this is the first spill of this size we have faced so there will naturally be many lessons learned from this spill. My point is that the spill was contained and relatively quickly cleaned up. If the lessons learned are applied, the spill would not have been as bad and the cleanup would not have requierd as much time/expense.

Florida has a tourism based economy and may be affected by spills. However, as BP created a fund to insure those affected, future spillers can be required to do the same. Future spills are likely to be capped quicker, cleaned up quicker and far less disruptive of life. I lived in North Florida for several years and am sympathetic to your concerns. I believe that your concerns can be used to force the lessons learned from the BP spill to be aplied better in the future.

NOTE: the above does not necessarily apply to a spill by Cuba or its partners as we really have limited, if any, real recourse. The World Court is really not useful unless the Sovreign nation is willing to submit itself to the jurisdiction of the WC AND abide by its rulings. In short, Cuba will simply say, "Make me pay you."
05-11-2011 11:35 AM
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Post: #34
RE: A new tax coming down the pike?
(05-11-2011 11:35 AM)HtownOrange Wrote:  CB,

Sorry, I forgot to address you claim re: a spill and its affect on tourism. Basically, this past year has shown many faults with the emergency planning. The spill was made worse by failings of BP, the current administration, and the several states. Don't read too much into my cristicism as this is the first spill of this size we have faced so there will naturally be many lessons learned from this spill. My point is that the spill was contained and relatively quickly cleaned up. If the lessons learned are applied, the spill would not have been as bad and the cleanup would not have requierd as much time/expense.

Florida has a tourism based economy and may be affected by spills. However, as BP created a fund to insure those affected, future spillers can be required to do the same. Future spills are likely to be capped quicker, cleaned up quicker and far less disruptive of life. I lived in North Florida for several years and am sympathetic to your concerns. I believe that your concerns can be used to force the lessons learned from the BP spill to be aplied better in the future.

NOTE: the above does not necessarily apply to a spill by Cuba or its partners as we really have limited, if any, real recourse. The World Court is really not useful unless the Sovreign nation is willing to submit itself to the jurisdiction of the WC AND abide by its rulings. In short, Cuba will simply say, "Make me pay you."

I wish I was as sure as you seem to be that the oil industry has learned from the Gulf disaster and will take steps to improve. sadly I havent seen that and in fact there might be less oversight in what they do. I can tell you that in our state, the new Gov has slashed most oversight when it comes to the environment.
05-11-2011 04:11 PM
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