Now that Villanova's previously assumed to be slam dunk candidacy has either bitten the dust or more likely hit a temporary snag the conversation seems to have changed to so called "football-only" candidates.

Everyone has been discussed, from schools that would take it in a heartbeat (ECU, HOU), to schools that would probably reluctantly accept the offer if it became clear that was their only option (UCF), to schools that have repeatedly told the Big East to piss off (Navy and Army).

Personally I'm not buying it at all. If we learned anything from our disastrous partnership with Temple it was that the "football only" does very little to help either the conference or the program and can in fact do damage to both sides. In fact I think the only question remaining about that is how much damage will it do?

I am almost positive that, when the whole expansion talk began more than a year ago, outgoing Big East commisioner Mike Tranghese specifically and emphatically said that the BE had learned its lesson and that it would not do any more football-only deals with anyone going forward.

So with that as the backdrop, it seems to me that the only people talking about the Big East doing a football-only membership of any kind are the ECU folks who are desperately trying to wedge their program into a BCS league.

Not going to happen...at least not as a football-only.

My hope going forward is that we add Central Florida and stick at 10-18 for the foreseeable future. However, if for whatever reason the league decides that it needs to add more teams to the football side then we simply add Houston and East Carolina and be done with it. That would give us a nice even 12/20 split and we will have improved our bowl attractiveness and our television reach. And in ECU we will have added a school that is HUNGRY to become our new Virginia Tech and appears financially committed to attaining that goal.

Win! Win!

However if Villanova decides that it is indeed serious about this D-1A deal and is committed to being more than poor man's Wake Forest (including its stadium situation) then HOU or (more likely) ECU is out in favor of the Wildcats by virtue of our longstanding shared relationship.

To me that is the most reasonable outcome of this whole deal. I hope VU turns us down outright but if they don't and if they commit to enhancing the Big East on and off the field then I will graciously welcome them as full partners. If they can't/won't make that commitment then I will wish them the very best of luck competing in the Colonial Athletic Association.

I disagree with a few things but agree with most of what you have said. Just a side note: It seems there are more "non-ECU" folks pushing the football only stuff here. Especially UCF fans.

I was under the impression it was understood ECU would do a FB only invite because you have a decent conference in the region where your other sports could still see decent success in?

(04-11-2011 11:39 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  I was under the impression it was understood ECU would do a FB only invite because you have a decent conference in the region where your other sports could still see decent success in?

I'm not saying ECU itself wouldn't push for that. But the fans on this board, which is what I believe he was referring to, who are pushing the football-only invite talk are mostly non-ECU fans. Including UCF fans who are saying this is what is coming.

Football only is only a shorterm solution IMO. I personally hope the Big East thinks more long term than that.

More complicated hybrids?

As a Louisville fan I wasn't around to witness the Temple experiment, but I don't think you can compare that situation with the current one.

The one team I would really enjoy adding the Big East as a football only is ECU. ECU and Temple are radically different in important ways and conference isn't the same as it was during that era.

When we were in C-USA ECU traveled to Louisville better than most Big East schools do now.

Basketball in the Big East is great, adding more teams could potentially damage that product. So unless someone can clearly state HOW a football only participant causes a problem, I think it could be the best solution to improving the football side.

(04-11-2011 12:14 PM)ULdave Wrote:  Basketball in the Big East is great, adding more teams could potentially damage that product. So unless someone can clearly state HOW a football only participant causes a problem, I think it could be the best solution to improving the football side.

This is what I don't get, the Big East doesn't need to worry about the basketball side of their conference. According to every media outlet it's undoubtedly the top Basketball Conference in the nation and is in no risk of losing that status. Compare that to your Football side, which is nationally ridiculed by almost every media outlet with concerns that it doesn't deserve a BCS tag (per your bowl records in the BCS era, it's not deserved but it's how it is right now). Yet you were willing to add Nova, an FCS team, to your football side just so you wouldn't risk damaging an already great product? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Hell, your Baskeball teams could probably use a bad team in their schedule between beating the everloving sh*t out of yourselves week in and week out. Furthermore, even if the team you add isn't great in basketball, you still open more markets to your viewership and recruiting base for your good teams.

I dunno, it's just mindboggling that the Big East would be worried about an area where they are so strong it's literally hurting some of their teams abilities to get to the Tournament instead of the sport which sent an unranked team to a BCS Bowl game.

Don't confuse the Big East with message board fans. Again they're clearly looking to improve football considering the fact they have added a near annual Top 25 program.

(04-11-2011 11:39 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  I was under the impression it was understood ECU would do a FB only invite because you have a decent conference in the region where your other sports could still see decent success in?

Yes, IF that were to happen we have several options:

1. Colonial (CAA) - UNC-Wilmington, Old Dominion, Virginia Commonwealth, James Madison, George Mason, Delaware, etc.

2. Southern Conference (SoCon): Appalachian State, Elon, Davidson, UNC-Greensboro, College of Charleston, Western Carolina, etc.

3. Big South - Coastal Carolina, Liberty, Charleston Southern, High Point, etc.

4. Atlantic 10- UNC-Charlotte, Richmond, etc.

The CAA is probably the most likely given our history with the members of that conference.. we play many of them OOC as it is. SoCon is probably the backup. The Big South and Atlantic 10 are not likely but both have schools from NC as members.

Surprisingly, there are 8 Division 1 conferences with teams in North Carolina: Atlantic Coast, Atlantic Sun, Atlantic 10, Big South, Colonial, Conference USA, Mid-Eastern Athletic, Southern.

BYU, ECU, and Temple would be perfect football-only candidates.

Not Temple, please. IMO trying to garner an audience in Philly is a waste of time...

(04-11-2011 01:14 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Not Temple, please. IMO trying to garner an audience in Philly is a waste of time...

This.

Why not get the Buffalo market? The Bills aren't a great team, anyway...

(04-11-2011 11:31 AM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  Now that Villanova's previously assumed to be slam dunk candidacy has either bitten the dust or more likely hit a temporary snag the conversation seems to have changed to so called "football-only" candidates.

Everyone has been discussed, from schools that would take it in a heartbeat (ECU, HOU), to schools that would probably reluctantly accept the offer if it became clear that was their only option (UCF), to schools that have repeatedly told the Big East to piss off (Navy and Army).

Personally I'm not buying it at all. If we learned anything from our disastrous partnership with Temple it was that the "football only" does very little to help either the conference or the program and can in fact do damage to both sides. In fact I think the only question remaining about that is how much damage will it do?

I am almost positive that, when the whole expansion talk began more than a year ago, outgoing Big East commisioner Mike Tranghese specifically and emphatically said that the BE had learned its lesson and that it would not do any more football-only deals with anyone going forward.

So with that as the backdrop, it seems to me that the only people talking about the Big East doing a football-only membership of any kind are the ECU folks who are desperately trying to wedge their program into a BCS league.

Not going to happen...at least not as a football-only.

My hope going forward is that we add Central Florida and stick at 10-18 for the foreseeable future. However, if for whatever reason the league decides that it needs to add more teams to the football side then we simply add Houston and East Carolina and be done with it. That would give us a nice even 12/20 split and we will have improved our bowl attractiveness and our television reach. And in ECU we will have added a school that is HUNGRY to become our new Virginia Tech and appears financially committed to attaining that goal.

Win! Win!

However if Villanova decides that it is indeed serious about this D-1A deal and is committed to being more than poor man's Wake Forest (including its stadium situation) then HOU or (more likely) ECU is out in favor of the Wildcats by virtue of our longstanding shared relationship.

To me that is the most reasonable outcome of this whole deal. I hope VU turns us down outright but if they don't and if they commit to enhancing the Big East on and off the field then I will graciously welcome them as full partners. If they can't/won't make that commitment then I will wish them the very best of luck competing in the Colonial Athletic Association.

Temple had to deal with Villanova and a poor administration and that is why things ended in disaster for them in the Big East.

Rutgers, West Virginia, and Virginia Tech are all examples of programs that started off as "football only" and have done well. If UCF took a football only invite and continued to build up that program and the existing athletic teams they would be an all-sport invite in under four years.

(04-11-2011 12:25 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  I dunno, it's just mindboggling that the Big East would be worried about an area where they are so strong it's literally hurting some of their teams abilities to get to the Tournament instead of the sport which sent an unranked team to a BCS Bowl game.

The more the league is expanded the more distant the teams in the league become to each other as rivals and competitors.

As a fan I don't really want to replace games vs Syracuse, Georgetown, or UConn to play ECU or UCF in basketball. Sure the coaches might like an easier schedule, but the fact that the Big East is so hard plays a great deal in determining its legitimacy.

If the SEC were to expand adding Memphis and UAB in the West and ECU and UCF in the East, don't you think the fans of LSU and Florida would be in a uproar to lose that rivalry to play less competitive games? Winning in the SEC would all of a sudden become less special if you played less marquee games, the same would happen in Big East Basketball.

(04-11-2011 01:14 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Not Temple, please. IMO trying to garner an audience in Philly is a waste of time...

You have this response saved for easy copy and pasting, don't you?

Btw, guess where Nova is from?

(04-11-2011 01:44 PM)JHG722 Wrote:  

(04-11-2011 01:14 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Not Temple, please. IMO trying to garner an audience in Philly is a waste of time...

You have this response saved for easy copy and pasting, don't you?

Btw, guess where Nova is from?

That's the point. I can see there is a good chunk of Big East fans that aren't excited about this move we thought the football schools were supporting. Seems that they are seeing the light as well.

Philadelphia is occupado.

(04-11-2011 01:45 PM)TampaKnight Wrote:  

(04-11-2011 01:44 PM)JHG722 Wrote:  

(04-11-2011 01:14 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Not Temple, please. IMO trying to garner an audience in Philly is a waste of time...

You have this response saved for easy copy and pasting, don't you?

Btw, guess where Nova is from?

That's the point. I can see there is a good chunk of Big East fans that aren't excited about this move we thought the football schools were supporting. Seems that they are seeing the light as well.

Philadelphia is occupado.

The point is that if Nova were in the same situation as us, we would be the easy choice. The only reason they're involved is because of their BE affiliation minus football and the CYO leadership. Nova is in as good a position to play BCS football as Georgetown, Holy Cross, and North Dakota.

Quote:The more the league is expanded the more distant the teams in the league become to each other as rivals and competitors.

As a fan I don't really want to replace games vs Syracuse, Georgetown, or UConn to play ECU or UCF in basketball. Sure the coaches might like an easier schedule, but the fact that the Big East is so hard plays a great deal in determining its legitimacy.

I can understand the first statement, but it's asinine to think that adding 2-3 top 100 teams to the Big East would in anyway affect it's standing as the toughest basketball league in the nation. None of the teams in the discussion are so awful in basketball that it'd affect an league with ~20 members, unlike the addition of Nova to a 10 team league.

Quote:If the SEC were to expand adding Memphis and UAB in the West and ECU and UCF in the East, don't you think the fans of LSU and Florida would be in a uproar to lose that rivalry to play less competitive games? Winning in the SEC would all of a sudden become less special if you played less marquee games, the same would happen in Big East Basketball.

This argument is pretty flawed for a few reasons.

1) You're looking at it in the opposite manner than you need to for it to be comparable. If the SEC desperately needed basketball strength to continue to hold onto it's BCS status, then yeah I could easily see them adding Memphis despite their horrendous football team. That's the situation the Big East is in right now, they need to shore up their football and if that means they invite a basketball team that isn't up to their usual standards, so be it.

2) None of those teams listed would bring any economic considerations into the SEC, unlike Houston/ECU/UCF would for the Big East.

The point is, with your conferences basketball strength, the expansion teams basketball teams shouldn't even be an issue. Add in the fact that at least UCF had a 69th ranked RPI so we're not exactly little sisters of the poor either. You need football support and strength, your basketball is fine.

(04-11-2011 01:27 PM)snowycuse Wrote:  Temple had to deal with Villanova and a poor administration and that is why things ended in disaster for them in the Big East.

Rutgers, West Virginia, and Virginia Tech are all examples of programs that started off as "football only" and have done well. If UCF took a football only invite and continued to build up that program and the existing athletic teams they would be an all-sport invite in under four years.

I am SOOOO glad that you brought up this point because it is a flat out myth that gets floated again and again and it is high time someone put it to bed once and for all.

David Adamany, the man generally demonized by Temple fans for all of their woes, served as the president of that university from 2000-2006.

However for YEARS before we formalized the football side of the conference in the early 90's all of the Eastern independents competed against each other in what was essentially a de facto conference.

I'm sorry to demonstrate (in the chart below) that Temple was basically the same program pre Big East (and WELL before Adamany's tenure) as they were after the league formalized in 1993.

The Owls' troubles on the field and at the gate had/have nothing to do with Adamany or Villanova's men's basketball program. They just sucked, period. And nobody in Philly cared about them then and nor do they now. I can't find TU's attendance data but I do have their abysmal won loss record from that era.

1975: 6-5-0
1976: 4-6-0
1977: 5-5-0
1978: 7-3-1
1979: 10-2-0
1980: 4-7-0
1981: 5-5-0
1982: 4-7-0
1983: 4-7-0
1984: 6-5-0
1985: 4-7-0
1986: 0-11-0
1987: 3-8-0
1988: 4-7-0
1989: 1-10-0
1990: 7-4-0
1991: 2-9-0
1992: 1-10-0
1993: 1-10-0
1994: 2-9-0
1995: 1-10-0
1996: 1-10-0
1997: 3-8-0
1998: 2-9-0
1999: 2-9-0
2000: 4-7-0
2001: 4-7-0
2002: 4-8-0
2003: 1-11-0
2004: 2-9-0
*The blue indicates formalized years in the Big East.

That is a 30 year sample size - which is more than fair, IMHO. And from looking at those undisputable figures (which, if my math is correct, comes out to 104-225-1 or a .315 win pct.) it is therefore unreasonable to blame Temple's ENORMOUS issues on one guy who was only the prez for six of those 30 years. Now they were certainly at their lowest ebb under Adamany but even if you take his time as prez out of the equation their record is still horrific and unworthy of BCS status. So either Marvin Wachman, Peter Liacouras, and David Adamany - the three TU presidents during the above period - each hated college football or the people of Philadelphia hated college football? It's got to be one or the other. I know which way I'd go but of course everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion.

We can argue all day long about football only memberships versus all sports memberships but Temple's shortcomings have a lot more to do with Temple than with anything else. They are also permanent challenges that they will never solve, IMHO.

That is why I say that the day the Temple Owls are invited back into the Big East is the day I officially stop supporting this league once and for all because it will mean that we have officially surrendered. I have emphatically and consistently demonstrated why Villanova is a horrific addition to the Big East for about 1,000 reasons but truth be told they are an infinitely better choice than their cross town rivals.