No reason to cut guys. Still need bodies to practice etc. Look at Toledo this year. At times they've had 3 or 4 walk-ons on the court together because they only have 6 or 7 guys available.

(02-18-2011 06:17 PM)Doggone Wrote:  Do you really think that a new coach will be able to bring in players this year that will help us win a MAC Championship in 3 to 4 years? Most of the players left for next season are scraps, as the better ones signed in November. You would be bringing in players that will sit on the bench for a MAC Championship team. So if you are doing that, you might as well let the Seniors graduate and use those scholarships next year when you have a chance to recruit players that can make a difference on a MAC Championshio in 3 to 4 years.

That's a fair argument. If there aren't any good players that are worth giving out a scholarship to, then by all means keep everyone. But that's looking at it from a basketball perspective, not a "let's do right by these athletes/PR" crap everyone is arguing.

To my point. A new coach is going to want to bring his type of players as soon as possible. Yea, the cream of the crop has already been signed, but those type players weren't coming here to begin with. There are a lot of good players still uncommitted and it's not unrealistic to think the new coaching staff will have some players on their radar that they will be ready to offer once they get hired. You can't tell me there aren't 2 players out there that aren't better than Lee and Storm.

Whether those players are worth using the remaining scholarships on will be up to the new coaching staff, but it's not unrealistic to think they will have 6-7 new guys they feel are going put us in a better position to succeed in the near future.

This whole program needs to be revamped and I am surprised to see that are that many players worth keeping.

For those of you thinking the new coaching staff owes anyone in this roster anything doesn't understand how college basketball works. It's all about looking out for number 1, and the new staff will be looking to clean house instead of passing out merit badges for loyalty.

(02-18-2011 09:43 PM)NIUSAE Wrote:  No reason to cut guys. Still need bodies to practice etc. Look at Toledo this year. At times they've had 3 or 4 walk-ons on the court together because they only have 6 or 7 guys available.

Yea and Toledo will be a much better team next year for it.

(02-18-2011 10:07 PM)niuliger09 Wrote:  

(02-18-2011 09:43 PM)NIUSAE Wrote:  No reason to cut guys. Still need bodies to practice etc. Look at Toledo this year. At times they've had 3 or 4 walk-ons on the court together because they only have 6 or 7 guys available.

Yea and Toledo will be a much better team next year for it.

Huskies have a total of 2 more wins in the MAC than Toledo.

BTW, Fisher was a walk-on at one point and Storm has played worst than a walk-on. So how is NIU better off with those two?

athletic scholarships are ONE year deals....typically they are renewed, year to year, but, there is no guarantee, especially when coaching changes occur. Seniors are often "placed," for their last year at, NAIA or D2 schools where they can get a scholarship and PLAY immediately. While some scholarships may be used for the 2011-12 season, others could be used to expand the class of 2012-13 which is who all coaches will be watching in the AAU spring and summer seasons starting in April. PR never saves your job, only winning guarantees that. Tark was a crook and won with bandits and even love the NCAA was always after him, he remains, today, a LEGEND at UNLV because he WON. Todd Lickliter was a HERO at Butler where he won and a BUM who got fired at Iowa cuz he lost...

The letter of the law may be that scholarships are year-to-year but I don't see how any fan can rationalize treating athletes like that.

My view is that advocating pulling the scholarship of a anyone who's making good faith effort, putting in the work, is advocating ******* behavior.. If there are character issues or someone isn't putting in work, fine, they can go. If they're putting in the work, they're holding up their end. There's only one honorable thing to do in that case.

(02-18-2011 11:20 PM)DogTracks Wrote:  The letter of the law may be that scholarships are year-to-year but I don't see how any fan can rationalize treating athletes like that.

My view is that advocating pulling the scholarship of a anyone who's making good faith effort, putting in the work, is advocating ******* behavior.. If there are character issues or someone isn't putting in work, fine, they can go. If they're putting in the work, they're holding up their end. There's only one honorable thing to do in that case.

I wish coaches had enough time to treat every athlete decently but that's just not realistic. They have to get results, and within a few years. They can't wait.

College sports is scummy. It's not really about improving young men and giving them time to flourish athletically and academically, though we'd all prefer that. Coaches get paid to bring positive attention to the school, mostly through winning.

Coaches have to find a way to win within the rules (unless you're Calipari or Pete Carroll) and do it quickly. If that means cutting players, they're going to do it. They have to think about their job and their family first, not the players. It sucks but I don't think there is any way around it.

good explanation, frisky....one only has to look at the manner in which Judson and Patton have been treated on this board to see how nasty and personal the attacks on a coach become when one doesn't win. The vitriol is so cruel it actually encourages whatever drastic action a coach may take to avoid it....and being fired. It is hypocritical to launch into some specious argument that wreaks of "loyalty" when, at the same time screaming for wins at all cost. Look out how "loyal" some on this board were to Coach Kill who had the most successful season ever in NIU football. That response is the reason coaches take care of themselves and their families first: the fanbase is so damn fickle.

(02-18-2011 04:26 PM)The Frisky Biscuit Wrote:  Ricardo Patton should have gotten rid of the guys he chased away waaaaaaaayyy sooner. It might have ruined his chances here because he didn't. It bred massive discontent. New coaches come in and clean house and build with "their guys." When you aren't winning squat, how much does it matter who you keep? As we're about to see with Patton, you only get so many years to turn it around. It'd be nice to treat the kids humanely and let them finish out their scholarships but it's too much of a cutthroat industry to do so. Also, I'll bet a lot of the players could use a fresh start in a new place.

No matter who stays, I think we're in for a couple more tough years at least. I think NIUliger has it pretty much spot on. After watching our horrible point guard play the last few years, I value Grady more than NIUliger seems to.

If we get rid of the devils we know (or if they flee), be prepared for a lot of transfers and freshman playing. It'll be exciting to see new faces, but I don't think the results will be what we want for at least 2 or 3 years.

i can't think of any players that needed to be moved out because attitude. We needed an upgrade of talent and a plan on how to build a team, that is the coaches job and he failed miserably.

(02-18-2011 05:11 PM)niuliger09 Wrote:  

(02-18-2011 04:38 PM)Doggone Wrote:  

(02-18-2011 04:27 PM)niuliger09 Wrote:  

(02-18-2011 04:08 PM)HuskieFan84 Wrote:  MD I was replying to liger.

There actually is time for feel good stories, particularly when you're rebuilding a program that's reputation has been destroyed. You need all the good publicity you can get, you don't start off by cutting the seniors who have done nothing wrong.

Maybe it makes you feel good that Storm and Fisher would be coming back, but the reality is 90% of people wouldn't even notice.

The bigger publicity is the new coach coming in and starting fresh. No one is going to start attending Huskies bball because Storm and Fisher are back.

People are going to get interested when this program starts winning regardless of who is on the court. Hard to feel bad for someone who has had 3 years of schooling paid for (even though I know Fisher was a walk-on for a few years).

People always feel like coaches have some sort of duty to the school and players. No one ever feels bad for a coach getting canned, but it's a big deal if they bolt or if a player gets cut.

Whoever gets hired will most likely get rid of those two, and if they do end keeping them it will be out necessity not out of pity.

And what reputation is being destroyed? NIU doesn't have a reputation.

You would want to keep the seniors because a) it is the right thing to do, and b) you want the scholarships for next years class. No coach will be able to bring in many players that can really play in the little time frame they will have to sign a class after the season. Next year, the scholarships are more valuable as the new coach would have a full year (or less for November signees) to sign his own class. Anything the new coach signs this year would be filler and not the nucleus for a turnaround. The scholarships for the '12-13 season are more valuable then the '11-12 season.

No point in bringing back two players on scholarships just to let them finish their careers. That's 2 scholarships you can be giving to a freshman that is going to help you 2/3 years down the line when improvement is going to be required. Or even a transfer player or a JUCO/prep school player that can help right away.

Storm seems like a great kid, and I wish he had been given a fair chance to show his worth, but unless he improves by leaps and bounds he has no business taking up a scholly. He is averaging 1 ppg as a Junior and is shooting .286% from the field. That's god awful.

Fisher is a great kid as well, hard worker with great heart. But that doesn't help a whole lot when you are extremely undersized and can't shoot.

If they want to stay on the team and finish their careers as Huskies...so be it...but let those two scholarships go to someone who is going to help the team either in the short term or in the long run.

The fact is whoever comes in will want to bring in their players as soon as possible. 3 years will go by real quick and if they are not winning by then, they will be on the brink of losing their job.

College basketball is big business and if 2 players get the shaft for the good of the program, so be it. None of you will even remember that happened if the Huskies are going to the Tourney in a few years.

Pulling rides from seniors who have presented themselves properly is probably the worst PR move you can make. Word gets around high schools. This fiasco is in the hands of one person Patton

(02-18-2011 08:09 PM)HuskieFan84 Wrote:  Pancrantz was coming off a serious injury and requested an extra year, completely different situation. And we have plenty of open scholarships, there's absolutely no incentive to cut guys.

84, you could not be more correct

(02-19-2011 11:10 AM)gcd Wrote:  Pulling rides from seniors who have presented themselves properly is probably the worst PR move you can make. Word gets around high schools. This fiasco is in the hands of one person Patton

Here we go again with the PR crap. Do you work for a marketing company?

Whenever we need someone to promote Britney Spears new album, expect a phone call. As far as running a quality basketball program...yea, we're going to pass on you.

The truth is, as bad PR as Patton had here...if this was a winning season, no one would have cared about whatever he did in the past.

Winning is the best PR you can get. And you can't win games if you are going to have guys on your team that are undersized/can't shoot/not athletic.

Rob Judson was a good PR guy and Patton is a bad PR guy, yet they both will be in the same category in about a month...fired...

Shows how much PR matters.

How can our PR get any worse? We're so bad we have no relationship with the public at all. Even infamy would be an improvement. Most people probably think the Convo is a Mausoleum. (And in many ways, one could argue, it is.)

Players have been booted, we can't win, can't draw a crowd to our trainwreck, nobody is even making fun of how bad we are. We can't even get enough disrespect to be of note.

A new coach coming in and getting rid of players that have done nothing wrong is a great way to ensure people won't want to play for you.

(02-19-2011 02:37 PM)OZoner Wrote:  A new coach coming in and getting rid of players that have done nothing wrong is a great way to ensure people won't want to play for you.

People will play for a coach who wins regardless of what he does to his players. Bob Knight beat the hell out of his players, Callipari cuts players left and right who don't perform.

A coach coming in on his first year and cutting a few misfits is different from a coach cutting players that have played for him for a few years. The new coach owes nothing to anyone on this current roster.

He will do whatever it takes for him to win, and if he does end up keeping everyone, it will be for basketball reasons, not for "duty", "loyalty" or "PR".

So basically, to some people winning is more important than doing right by the student athletes.

I don't see how punishing guys who do what is expected of them is anything but wrong. They aren't the people who screwed up, who messed up on projecting what they could be, or in developing them.

Winning and treating people the right way are not incompatible.

(02-19-2011 10:25 AM)cagy cager Wrote:  good explanation, frisky....one only has to look at the manner in which Judson and Patton have been treated on this board to see how nasty and personal the attacks on a coach become when one doesn't win. The vitriol is so cruel it actually encourages whatever drastic action a coach may take to avoid it....and being fired. It is hypocritical to launch into some specious argument that wreaks of "loyalty" when, at the same time screaming for wins at all cost. Look out how "loyal" some on this board were to Coach Kill who had the most successful season ever in NIU football. That response is the reason coaches take care of themselves and their families first: the fanbase is so damn fickle.

(02-19-2011 03:01 PM)DogTracks Wrote:  So basically, to some people winning is more important than doing right by the student athletes.

I don't see how punishing guys who do what is expected of them is anything but wrong. They aren't the people who screwed up, who messed up on projecting what they could be, or in developing them.

Winning and treating people the right way are not incompatible.

Coaches aren't given that leeway by fans and the university, so it's unfair to ask them to risk their jobs by giving that leeway to the players.

(02-19-2011 03:01 PM)DogTracks Wrote:  So basically, to some people winning is more important than doing right by the student athletes.

I don't see how punishing guys who do what is expected of them is anything but wrong. They aren't the people who screwed up, who messed up on projecting what they could be, or in developing them.

Winning and treating people the right way are not incompatible.

Yea, in the land of puppy dogs, cotton candy and rainbows.

We are talking about college basketball.

How many coaches do what they are asked to do, don't succeed and get canned? I don't see anyone crying foul on that.

Patton is going to be let go before his contract ends. He has done all that was asked of him from the contract. Why is it different to expect the same from student athletes?

Remember, it's a privilege to play D-I basketball, not a right.

And yes, winning is more important than doing right by the student athletes, especially when your job is evaluated by wins/losses.

(02-19-2011 10:25 AM)cagy cager Wrote:  good explanation, frisky....one only has to look at the manner in which Judson and Patton have been treated on this board to see how nasty and personal the attacks on a coach become when one doesn't win. The vitriol is so cruel it actually encourages whatever drastic action a coach may take to avoid it....and being fired. It is hypocritical to launch into some specious argument that wreaks of "loyalty" when, at the same time screaming for wins at all cost. Look out how "loyal" some on this board were to Coach Kill who had the most successful season ever in NIU football. That response is the reason coaches take care of themselves and their families first: the fanbase is so damn fickle.

What the ???? What are you talking about??? How were Judson or Patton treated ? Nasty personal attacks? What? Three or four years of EMBARASSMENT with no sign of progress merits getting fired. Over 4 years Patton made $1.2 million and produced nothing. Sorry if that's "nasty," but go home and be happy for the 4 years you had. Don't dare try to say anyone on here has been "nasty" to Patton or in any way unfair. $1.2 million over 4 years. What the hell should we expect from that???? Seven wins? Embarrassing losses? The complete dismemberment of the program? A new coach will have plenty of time to build a winner. Patton had his. It didn't work. Nothing personal, but a change obviously has to be made. Not just because of wins and losses, but the way we have lost.

(02-19-2011 03:25 PM)chihuskie Wrote:  

(02-19-2011 10:25 AM)cagy cager Wrote:  good explanation, frisky....one only has to look at the manner in which Judson and Patton have been treated on this board to see how nasty and personal the attacks on a coach become when one doesn't win. The vitriol is so cruel it actually encourages whatever drastic action a coach may take to avoid it....and being fired. It is hypocritical to launch into some specious argument that wreaks of "loyalty" when, at the same time screaming for wins at all cost. Look out how "loyal" some on this board were to Coach Kill who had the most successful season ever in NIU football. That response is the reason coaches take care of themselves and their families first: the fanbase is so damn fickle.

What the ???? What are you talking about??? How were Judson or Patton treated ? Nasty personal attacks? What? Three or four years of EMBARASSMENT with no sign of progress merits getting fired. Over 4 years Patton made $1.2 million and produced nothing. Sorry if that's "nasty," but go home and be happy for the 4 years you had. Don't dare try to say anyone on here has been "nasty" to Patton or in any way unfair. $1.2 million over 4 years. What the hell should we expect from that???? Seven wins? Embarrassing losses? The complete dismemberment of the program? A new coach will have plenty of time to build a winner. Patton had his. It didn't work. Nothing personal, but a change obviously has to be made. Not just because of wins and losses, but the way we have lost.

Patton deserves every ounce of criticism.

Coaches are an easy target. It's easy to pick on one guy rather than pick on 13 (the players).

The truth is, players do wrong by coaches just as much as coaches do wrong by the players. How many players spurn a coach at the last minute (Miles Osei anyone?), don't make grades, transfer schools, leave early (for the draft), get in trouble, or just plain under-perform?

Nobody feels sorry for coaches when things like that happen. But somehow it's crazy to suggest 2 players should not be extended a scholarship by the new coaching staff when they have clearly under-performed? That's just ridiculous.