Hello There, Guest! (LoginRegister)

Thread Closed 
OT--ND/Temple 3 game series
Author Message
quo vadis Offline
Legend
*

Posts: 50,012
Joined: Aug 2008
Reputation: 2372
I Root For: USF/Georgetown
Location: New Orleans
Post: #41
RE: OT--ND/Temple 3 game series
(02-18-2011 01:48 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  I'd also favor a split immediately afterward. So we could setup a true all sports conference, and develop the kind of traditions between the member schools that every other conference that is more stable than us has. Those conferences don't have different rivals for every sport that comes down the pike, like we do. The rivals are exactly the same in every single sport they play. As long as we remain in this hybrid, that's always going to be the case...

Agreed. We need to be an all-sports conference, like all the other AQ conferences. 04-cheers
02-18-2011 03:00 PM
Find all posts by this user
MichaelSavage Offline
Banned

Posts: 3,583
Joined: Apr 2006
I Root For: WVU, Nebraska
Location:
Post: #42
RE: OT--ND/Temple 3 game series
(02-18-2011 03:00 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-18-2011 01:48 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  I'd also favor a split immediately afterward. So we could setup a true all sports conference, and develop the kind of traditions between the member schools that every other conference that is more stable than us has. Those conferences don't have different rivals for every sport that comes down the pike, like we do. The rivals are exactly the same in every single sport they play. As long as we remain in this hybrid, that's always going to be the case...

Agreed. We need to be an all-sports conference, like all the other AQ conferences. 04-cheers

If it could be proven that such a conference would be more profitable & stable than the hybrid I'd be inclined to agree. But splitting just for the sake of splitting does not make much sense to me.
02-18-2011 03:31 PM
Find all posts by this user
bitcruncher Offline
pepperoni roll psycho...
*

Posts: 61,859
Joined: Jan 2006
Reputation: 526
I Root For: West Virginia
Location: Knoxville, TN
Post: #43
RE: OT--ND/Temple 3 game series
It already is proven, MS. The oldest all sports AQ conferences (SEC, Big Tin, Pac Tin, Ivy) are the most stable conferences around...
02-18-2011 04:03 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
quo vadis Offline
Legend
*

Posts: 50,012
Joined: Aug 2008
Reputation: 2372
I Root For: USF/Georgetown
Location: New Orleans
Post: #44
RE: OT--ND/Temple 3 game series
(02-18-2011 03:31 PM)MichaelSavage Wrote:  If it could be proven that such a conference would be more profitable & stable than the hybrid I'd be inclined to agree. But splitting just for the sake of splitting does not make much sense to me.

I have to admit i'm sympathetic to a demand for proof, and i don't have it.

But as bit notes, the circumstantial evidence supports the notion that all-sports is more stable/profitable than a hybrid, and logic and analogy seems to point in that direction as well ("hybrids" inherently tend to be less stable, in nature they often can't reproduce, etc.).

My conjecture would be that initially, a split would weaken the remaining all-sports conference, but after a transition period, we would emerge stronger than before.

That said, i acknowledge i could be wrong. One bit of evidence that troubles me is that the football conference currently gains some reflective glory, and cash via the TV contracts, from the strength of the basketball conference, and that basketball conference would be weakened.

There would definitely be more pressure on the football side to get better, but at this point i'm willing to take that leap ...
(This post was last modified: 02-18-2011 05:39 PM by quo vadis.)
02-18-2011 05:37 PM
Find all posts by this user
brista21 Offline
The Birthplace of College Football
*

Posts: 10,042
Joined: Apr 2005
Reputation: 262
I Root For: Rutgers
Location: North Jersey

Donators
Post: #45
RE: OT--ND/Temple 3 game series
(02-18-2011 04:03 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  It already is proven, MS. The oldest all sports AQ conferences (SEC, Big Tin, Pac Tin, Ivy) are the most stable conferences around...

Although the Ivy as a formal league really didn't start until early 50s. Rutgers, Army and Navy were usually considered part of the old informal Ivy League.
02-18-2011 06:00 PM
Find all posts by this user
bitcruncher Offline
pepperoni roll psycho...
*

Posts: 61,859
Joined: Jan 2006
Reputation: 526
I Root For: West Virginia
Location: Knoxville, TN
Post: #46
RE: OT--ND/Temple 3 game series
(02-18-2011 05:37 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  My conjecture would be that initially, a split would weaken the remaining all-sports conference, but after a transition period, we would emerge stronger than before.

That said, i acknowledge i could be wrong. One bit of evidence that troubles me is that the football conference currently gains some reflective glory, and cash via the TV contracts, from the strength of the basketball conference, and that basketball conference would be weakened.
The basketball end of the conference would be smaller. But it wouldn't be weaker. The overall strength rating wouldn't change at all, even with the addition of TCU...

Currently the football schools have 6 schools that will most likely be in the NCAA tourney, out of the 8 football members (assuming WVU and UC earn invites). That's 75%. Name another conference that gets such a large percentage of their membership into the big dance...

The non-football schools are likely to garner 4 invites, which is 50% of the non-football membership, unless Marquette manages to play its way in, which would bump it up to 62.5%. That's not too shabby for them either...

I just can't see The BEast getting 11 bids this year, unless a miracle happens. At the moment, it seems like the media is trying to think of a way to campaign against allowing us too many NCAA tourney bids. They just haven't come up with a reason that makes sense yet...
02-18-2011 07:29 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
quo vadis Offline
Legend
*

Posts: 50,012
Joined: Aug 2008
Reputation: 2372
I Root For: USF/Georgetown
Location: New Orleans
Post: #47
RE: OT--ND/Temple 3 game series
(02-18-2011 07:29 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  The basketball end of the conference would be smaller. But it wouldn't be weaker. The overall strength rating wouldn't change at all, even with the addition of TCU...

Currently the football schools have 6 schools that will most likely be in the NCAA tourney, out of the 8 football members (assuming WVU and UC earn invites). That's 75%. Name another conference that gets such a large percentage of their membership into the big dance...

The non-football schools are likely to garner 4 invites, which is 50% of the non-football membership, unless Marquette manages to play its way in, which would bump it up to 62.5%. That's not too shabby for them either...

I think we might be at the point of kicking a dead horse here, in that you and i subscribe to different views of 'strength'. I don't think percentages matter as much as gross numbers (to me, a conference that gets 10 of 18 into the dance is clearly stronger than one that gets 6 of 9 in, because 10 is more than 6). You think the opposite.

And the root of that difference is how we think about the weakest teams. To me, weak teams don't matter, it's the strong ones that define a conference. One reason for that is that there are only so many strong, blue-chip programs, and if one is in your conference, it also means that program isn't in some OTHER conference. That matters, because we can't define conference strength in a vacuum, it's always relative to other conferences.

Put it this way: Do you think Big East basketball would be weakened or strengthened if we added Duke, Louisiana-Monroe, and Southern Illinois? To me, we'd clearly be strengthened, and one reason for that would be that not only would we now have Duke, but it also means the ACC, a rival of ours in the "best conference" race, would no longer have Duke.

But you would say otherwise ...
(This post was last modified: 02-18-2011 08:52 PM by quo vadis.)
02-18-2011 08:42 PM
Find all posts by this user
SO#1 Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 2,008
Joined: Sep 2004
Reputation: 18
I Root For: Connecticut
Location:
Post: #48
RE: OT--ND/Temple 3 game series
Quo Vadis, when you wear two hats you have to look out for the interest of the dog.
You are willing to overlook 10/18 as better than 6/9 for the dog sake.
02-18-2011 09:31 PM
Find all posts by this user
quo vadis Offline
Legend
*

Posts: 50,012
Joined: Aug 2008
Reputation: 2372
I Root For: USF/Georgetown
Location: New Orleans
Post: #49
RE: OT--ND/Temple 3 game series
(02-18-2011 09:31 PM)SO#1 Wrote:  Quo Vadis, when you wear two hats you have to look out for the interest of the dog.
You are willing to overlook 10/18 as better than 6/9 for the dog sake.

Dude, i wish i could interpret this, but it's too cryptic for me. :ncaabbs:
02-18-2011 11:46 PM
Find all posts by this user
bitcruncher Offline
pepperoni roll psycho...
*

Posts: 61,859
Joined: Jan 2006
Reputation: 526
I Root For: West Virginia
Location: Knoxville, TN
Post: #50
RE: OT--ND/Temple 3 game series
(02-18-2011 11:46 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-18-2011 09:31 PM)SO#1 Wrote:  Quo Vadis, when you wear two hats you have to look out for the interest of the dog.
You are willing to overlook 10/18 as better than 6/9 for the dog sake.
Dude, i wish i could interpret this, but it's too cryptic for me. :ncaabbs:
And therein lies the root of your problem, quo. 10/18 equates to 5/9, whereas 6/9 is stronger. You need some basic math skills, and stop paying attention to one single number as your be all and end all. It's self-defeating, and naive...
02-19-2011 08:26 AM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Shannon Panther Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 6,877
Joined: Apr 2005
Reputation: 370
I Root For: Pitt
Location: Nashville, TN

Donators
Post: #51
RE: OT--ND/Temple 3 game series
The number of teams that qualify are all good and well, but a more relevant number would be the number of NCAA credits earned by each side of the house. It's all about the Benjamins gentlemen.

Likewise I'm sure there has been some analysis of what the TV contract would look like without Chicago, NY, DC, Providence, and Milwaukee. We would retain a notional presence in NYC because of Rutgers and UConn, but neither falls into the NYC DMA. Rutgers does fall into the Philadelphia DMA.

I can't imagine that mere sentiment is what is keeping this league together.
02-19-2011 09:50 AM
Find all posts by this user
quo vadis Offline
Legend
*

Posts: 50,012
Joined: Aug 2008
Reputation: 2372
I Root For: USF/Georgetown
Location: New Orleans
Post: #52
RE: OT--ND/Temple 3 game series
(02-19-2011 08:26 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  
(02-18-2011 11:46 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-18-2011 09:31 PM)SO#1 Wrote:  Quo Vadis, when you wear two hats you have to look out for the interest of the dog.
You are willing to overlook 10/18 as better than 6/9 for the dog sake.
Dude, i wish i could interpret this, but it's too cryptic for me. :ncaabbs:
And therein lies the root of your problem, quo. 10/18 equates to 5/9, whereas 6/9 is stronger. You need some basic math skills, and stop paying attention to one single number as your be all and end all. It's self-defeating, and naive...

10/18 only "equates" to 5/9 if we reduce the volume of the former by half. But the volume is precisely what defines strength, not the percentage. If anyone needs basic math skills, its those who think 6 > 10.

You can't eat a percentage. If i had the choice between owning 90% of a property worth $1 million, or 60% of a property worth $10 million, well, i know what i'd choose ...
(This post was last modified: 02-19-2011 10:07 AM by quo vadis.)
02-19-2011 10:06 AM
Find all posts by this user
quo vadis Offline
Legend
*

Posts: 50,012
Joined: Aug 2008
Reputation: 2372
I Root For: USF/Georgetown
Location: New Orleans
Post: #53
RE: OT--ND/Temple 3 game series
(02-19-2011 09:50 AM)Shannon Panther Wrote:  The number of teams that qualify are all good and well, but a more relevant number would be the number of NCAA credits earned by each side of the house. It's all about the Benjamins gentlemen.

I think that in terms of assessing conference strength, both are important. E.g., if one conference puts 6 of 9 teams in the tourney and another 1 of 9, but the conference with 6 of 9 has all its teams lose in the first round but the conference with 1/9 has its team win the national title, the 1/9 conference might make more money from the tourney, but is it the stronger conference?

To me, "conference strength" doesn't just mean 1 team. Sure, we ultimately define conferences by their best teams more than their worst, but the term also implies some kind of broad-base of strength. I'd say the former conference was stronger, despite its abject performance in the tourney from both a money and won/loss perspective. Assuming that the selection committee made the right choices (admittedly, we can't be sure about that) it had 6 teams that were better than all but 1 of the teams in the 1/9 conference ....
(This post was last modified: 02-19-2011 10:12 AM by quo vadis.)
02-19-2011 10:11 AM
Find all posts by this user
bitcruncher Offline
pepperoni roll psycho...
*

Posts: 61,859
Joined: Jan 2006
Reputation: 526
I Root For: West Virginia
Location: Knoxville, TN
Post: #54
RE: OT--ND/Temple 3 game series
(02-19-2011 10:06 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-19-2011 08:26 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  
(02-18-2011 11:46 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-18-2011 09:31 PM)SO#1 Wrote:  Quo Vadis, when you wear two hats you have to look out for the interest of the dog.
You are willing to overlook 10/18 as better than 6/9 for the dog sake.
Dude, i wish i could interpret this, but it's too cryptic for me. :ncaabbs:
And therein lies the root of your problem, quo. 10/18 equates to 5/9, whereas 6/9 is stronger. You need some basic math skills, and stop paying attention to one single number as your be all and end all. It's self-defeating, and naive...
10/18 only "equates" to 5/9 if we reduce the volume of the former by half. But the volume is precisely what defines strength, not the percentage. If anyone needs basic math skills, its those who think 6 > 10.

You can't eat a percentage. If i had the choice between owning 90% of a property worth $1 million, or 60% of a property worth $10 million, well, i know what i'd choose ...
Steve, I think you're wrong. You're also oversimplifying. But that's neither here nor there...

You want a larger number of teams. I want a smaller number of teams. I want more strong teams, and a very small percentage of weak teams. You don't seem to care how many weak teams we have, as long as we have a bunch of good teams, even if it weakens our overall strength rating...

That's a simple version of the real facts on this...
02-19-2011 11:06 AM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
quo vadis Offline
Legend
*

Posts: 50,012
Joined: Aug 2008
Reputation: 2372
I Root For: USF/Georgetown
Location: New Orleans
Post: #55
RE: OT--ND/Temple 3 game series
(02-19-2011 11:06 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  
(02-19-2011 10:06 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-19-2011 08:26 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  
(02-18-2011 11:46 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-18-2011 09:31 PM)SO#1 Wrote:  Quo Vadis, when you wear two hats you have to look out for the interest of the dog.
You are willing to overlook 10/18 as better than 6/9 for the dog sake.
Dude, i wish i could interpret this, but it's too cryptic for me. :ncaabbs:
And therein lies the root of your problem, quo. 10/18 equates to 5/9, whereas 6/9 is stronger. You need some basic math skills, and stop paying attention to one single number as your be all and end all. It's self-defeating, and naive...
10/18 only "equates" to 5/9 if we reduce the volume of the former by half. But the volume is precisely what defines strength, not the percentage. If anyone needs basic math skills, its those who think 6 > 10.

You can't eat a percentage. If i had the choice between owning 90% of a property worth $1 million, or 60% of a property worth $10 million, well, i know what i'd choose ...
Steve, I think you're wrong. You're also oversimplifying. But that's neither here nor there...

You want a larger number of teams. I want a smaller number of teams. I want more strong teams, and a very small percentage of weak teams. You don't seem to care how many weak teams we have, as long as we have a bunch of good teams, even if it weakens our overall strength rating...

That's a simple version of the real facts on this...

I think the real fact on this is that we understand each other's positions, just disagree, and have reached the point of ... 05-deadhorse
(This post was last modified: 02-19-2011 12:00 PM by quo vadis.)
02-19-2011 11:58 AM
Find all posts by this user
bitcruncher Offline
pepperoni roll psycho...
*

Posts: 61,859
Joined: Jan 2006
Reputation: 526
I Root For: West Virginia
Location: Knoxville, TN
Post: #56
RE: OT--ND/Temple 3 game series
Steve, the bull we've been shooting is full of holes too... 04-cheers
02-19-2011 12:05 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
quo vadis Offline
Legend
*

Posts: 50,012
Joined: Aug 2008
Reputation: 2372
I Root For: USF/Georgetown
Location: New Orleans
Post: #57
RE: OT--ND/Temple 3 game series
(02-19-2011 12:05 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Steve, the bull we've been shooting is full of holes too... 04-cheers

Agreed! 04-cheers
02-19-2011 01:17 PM
Find all posts by this user
Thread Closed 




User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)


Copyright © 2002-2024 Collegiate Sports Nation Bulletin Board System (CSNbbs), All Rights Reserved.
CSNbbs is an independent fan site and is in no way affiliated to the NCAA or any of the schools and conferences it represents.
This site monetizes links. FTC Disclosure.
We allow third-party companies to serve ads and/or collect certain anonymous information when you visit our web site. These companies may use non-personally identifiable information (e.g., click stream information, browser type, time and date, subject of advertisements clicked or scrolled over) during your visits to this and other Web sites in order to provide advertisements about goods and services likely to be of greater interest to you. These companies typically use a cookie or third party web beacon to collect this information. To learn more about this behavioral advertising practice or to opt-out of this type of advertising, you can visit http://www.networkadvertising.org.
Powered By MyBB, © 2002-2024 MyBB Group.