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outsideualr Offline
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How can we measure where the program is
right now. Some have said that getting to the NCAA tournament is the ultimate measuring stick. That's certainly one goal that hasn't been reached. But I'll give you another that I feel is even more relevant. Our performances on the road against teams from other leagues. By this time, I would have expected us to be able to compete, even win, some games against teams on the road like Mo State, ORU, St. Bonaventure, and even win at home against an Ole Miss. We're not doing that. We're not even coming close. We're getting embarassed.

You can rationalize all you want about this or that, but we're still playing at a level no higher, and maybe even worse than we did ten years ago (not counting Sidney's year). The program is stuck in mediocrity. How do we get it moving? Well what we're doing is obviously not working. After watching the SMU documentary, maybe cheating is our only way.
Just kidding guys. But you don't give up trying. Will our next recruiting class turn things around? I don't know. We've had a lot of recruiting classes, and nothing has changed. Someone has to make a committment to winning. When that happens, we'll begin winning. Until then, we'll remain mired in mediocrity.04-cheers
12-20-2010 01:10 PM
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MICHAELSPAPPY Offline
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RE: How can we measure where the program is
(12-20-2010 01:10 PM)outsideualr Wrote:  Will our next recruiting class turn things around? I don't know.

I don't know either, but I like what I have seen from this year's class.
12-20-2010 01:13 PM
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outsideualr Offline
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RE: How can we measure where the program is
(12-20-2010 01:13 PM)MICHAELSPAPPY Wrote:  
(12-20-2010 01:10 PM)outsideualr Wrote:  Will our next recruiting class turn things around? I don't know.

I don't know either, but I like what I have seen from this year's class.

So do I, but I've been saying this each year for years now, and have been disappointed that we can't seem to move up the food chain.04-cheers
12-20-2010 01:18 PM
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MICHAELSPAPPY Offline
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RE: How can we measure where the program is
Every player cannot start, and you have to have guys who can fill spots lower in the rotation. However, since starters play the lion's share of minutes, they will be the ones who will determine largely how far the team can go. I think Chucky is the type player who can raise the level of the team. Gus may well be by his upper-class years. (Most big guys' game matures late.) We have one, maybe two, coming in next year that we think may be of that quality. It only takes a couple of special players to make it happen. We have always been pretty good at getting the solid players to play roles.
12-20-2010 01:26 PM
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LRTrojan Offline
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RE: How can we measure where the program is
When we win 20 games or more, the proof is still in the pudding. Look at all the empty seats. When the best we can do is draw around 4,000 for a Ole Miss, or someone of that stature, the program is still a failure. And to be perfectly honest, when we draw 4,000, they are hog fans coming to see Ole Miss, not the Trojans. Then, when we play someone else, the numbers drop like a rock to our normal 2,000 or so.
12-20-2010 01:30 PM
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outsideualr Offline
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RE: How can we measure where the program is
(12-20-2010 01:30 PM)LRTrojan Wrote:  When we win 20 games or more, the proof is still in the pudding. Look at all the empty seats. When the best we can do is draw around 4,000 for a Ole Miss, or someone of that stature, the program is still a failure. And to be perfectly honest, when we draw 4,000, they are hog fans coming to see Ole Miss, not the Trojans. Then, when we play someone else, the numbers drop like a rock to our normal 2,000 or so.

I think the key is to start beating better teams consistenty, whether it be on the road or at home. We haven't been able to do that. That's how Gonzaga started up the food chain. They began scheduling big time teams on the road and started beating them. That get's fan's attention.

People want to support a winner. I'm not talking about a team that wins a lot of games in the Sun Belt Conference. I'm talking about a team that can hold their own with most teams from most conferences.
I'm not talking about a Duke or Kansas, but maybe even a Gonzaga. And teams that get to the NCAA tournament. Will we ever be that type of program? I'm beginning to doubt it. I haven't see that kind of committment from the administration. When enough of the money folks step up and demand better, that's when it will happen. Until then, we'll just have to read about every time a Hog player goes to the bathroom.03-banghead
12-20-2010 01:39 PM
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MICHAELSPAPPY Offline
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RE: How can we measure where the program is
(12-20-2010 01:39 PM)outsideualr Wrote:  I'm not talking about a Duke or Kansas, but maybe even a Gonzaga.

My lands, Doc, how many teams - at any level - are a Gonzaga?
12-20-2010 01:50 PM
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outsideualr Offline
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RE: How can we measure where the program is
(12-20-2010 01:50 PM)MICHAELSPAPPY Wrote:  
(12-20-2010 01:39 PM)outsideualr Wrote:  I'm not talking about a Duke or Kansas, but maybe even a Gonzaga.

My lands, Doc, how many teams - at any level - are a Gonzaga?

They weren't always Gonzaga either. And Butler wasn't always Butler.
We have the same facilities as Gonzaga. Why not the same type program? Recruiting. Remember. Only two types of coaches. Those with talent, and those who are unemployed.04-cheers
12-20-2010 01:55 PM
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mjs Offline
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RE: How can we measure where the program is
(12-20-2010 01:30 PM)LRTrojan Wrote:  When we win 20 games or more, the proof is still in the pudding. Look at all the empty seats. When the best we can do is draw around 4,000 for a Ole Miss, or someone of that stature, the program is still a failure. And to be perfectly honest, when we draw 4,000, they are hog fans coming to see Ole Miss, not the Trojans. Then, when we play someone else, the numbers drop like a rock to our normal 2,000 or so.

The reality is that the program is not a failure. We are paying our bills, winning our fair share of games, and graduating players. There are many midmajor programs who would love to be able to say that. The program was a "failure" under Newell who almost caused us to be shut down due to reckless spending, huge budget shortfalls, player arrests, and horrible academics. I guess it depends what your definition of "failure" is. Was the SMU program that got the death penalty a "success" or a "failure"? They sure won a ton of games.
12-20-2010 02:10 PM
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outsideualr Offline
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RE: How can we measure where the program is
(12-20-2010 02:10 PM)mjs Wrote:  
(12-20-2010 01:30 PM)LRTrojan Wrote:  When we win 20 games or more, the proof is still in the pudding. Look at all the empty seats. When the best we can do is draw around 4,000 for a Ole Miss, or someone of that stature, the program is still a failure. And to be perfectly honest, when we draw 4,000, they are hog fans coming to see Ole Miss, not the Trojans. Then, when we play someone else, the numbers drop like a rock to our normal 2,000 or so.

The reality is that the program is not a failure. We are paying our bills, winning our fair share of games, and graduating players. There are many midmajor programs who would love to be able to say that. The program was a "failure" under Newell who almost caused us to be shut down due to reckless spending, huge budget shortfalls, player arrests, and horrible academics. I guess it depends what your definition of "failure" is. Was the SMU program that got the death penalty a "success" or a "failure"? They sure won a ton of games.

I've never said our program was a failure. I've just said it's stuck in mediocrity. A big difference. Ideal situation. Good quality kids who win championships, get us to the NCAA, stay in school and graduate, unless they leave early for the NBA. Doesn't that sound like a nice formula?04-cheers
12-20-2010 02:32 PM
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LRTrojan Offline
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RE: How can we measure where the program is
(12-20-2010 02:10 PM)mjs Wrote:  
(12-20-2010 01:30 PM)LRTrojan Wrote:  When we win 20 games or more, the proof is still in the pudding. Look at all the empty seats. When the best we can do is draw around 4,000 for a Ole Miss, or someone of that stature, the program is still a failure. And to be perfectly honest, when we draw 4,000, they are hog fans coming to see Ole Miss, not the Trojans. Then, when we play someone else, the numbers drop like a rock to our normal 2,000 or so.

The reality is that the program is not a failure. We are paying our bills, winning our fair share of games, and graduating players. There are many midmajor programs who would love to be able to say that. The program was a "failure" under Newell who almost caused us to be shut down due to reckless spending, huge budget shortfalls, player arrests, and horrible academics. I guess it depends what your definition of "failure" is. Was the SMU program that got the death penalty a "success" or a "failure"? They sure won a ton of games.


I guess as you say, it depends on ones definition of "failure." If all you're interested in is graduating folks, then have an intramural program. If describing a successful basketball program, to me it means winning most of your games, playing exciting basketball, and attracting fans.

I realize that Mike Newell, like Matt Mouzy, will never get any credit from some of you. But, you didn't boycott the program when Mike was here. I didn't know you then, but I'll bet you enjoyed his run here. You can run him down till hell freezes over, but Shields won't ever be able to carry his jock as a basketball coach. I realize Newell was no saint, but he could damn well coach basketball, and certainly had interest up in the program. We had more fans drive to Pine Bluff to see the Trojans play someone like Stetson when he was the coach, than Shields can draw for someone like Ole Miss at home. You won't make Shields a better coach by running Newell down.

I've always wondered who was on the Hall of Fame committe that is keeping Mike out of the Trojan Hall of Fame.
12-20-2010 02:38 PM
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mjs Offline
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RE: How can we measure where the program is
(12-20-2010 02:38 PM)LRTrojan Wrote:  
(12-20-2010 02:10 PM)mjs Wrote:  
(12-20-2010 01:30 PM)LRTrojan Wrote:  When we win 20 games or more, the proof is still in the pudding. Look at all the empty seats. When the best we can do is draw around 4,000 for a Ole Miss, or someone of that stature, the program is still a failure. And to be perfectly honest, when we draw 4,000, they are hog fans coming to see Ole Miss, not the Trojans. Then, when we play someone else, the numbers drop like a rock to our normal 2,000 or so.

The reality is that the program is not a failure. We are paying our bills, winning our fair share of games, and graduating players. There are many midmajor programs who would love to be able to say that. The program was a "failure" under Newell who almost caused us to be shut down due to reckless spending, huge budget shortfalls, player arrests, and horrible academics. I guess it depends what your definition of "failure" is. Was the SMU program that got the death penalty a "success" or a "failure"? They sure won a ton of games.


I guess as you say, it depends on ones definition of "failure." If all you're interested in is graduating folks, then have an intramural program. If describing a successful basketball program, to me it means winning most of your games, playing exciting basketball, and attracting fans.

I realize that Mike Newell, like Matt Mouzy, will never get any credit from some of you. But, you didn't boycott the program when Mike was here. I didn't know you then, but I'll bet you enjoyed his run here. You can run him down till hell freezes over, but Shields won't ever be able to carry his jock as a basketball coach. I realize Newell was no saint, but he could damn well coach basketball, and certainly had interest up in the program. We had more fans drive to Pine Bluff to see the Trojans play someone like Stetson when he was the coach, than Shields can draw for someone like Ole Miss at home. You won't make Shields a better coach by running Newell down.

I've always wondered who was on the Hall of Fame committe that is keeping Mike out of the Trojan Hall of Fame.

I never questioned Newell's charisma or that he was a pretty decent basketball coach. But coming close to having your basketball program shut down is as close to failure as I can think of. Probably, it was unfair having Mike as AD and head coach. Pretty hard to say no to yourself when you are making budget proposals.
12-20-2010 03:38 PM
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LRTrojan Offline
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RE: How can we measure where the program is
(12-20-2010 03:38 PM)mjs Wrote:  
(12-20-2010 02:38 PM)LRTrojan Wrote:  
(12-20-2010 02:10 PM)mjs Wrote:  
(12-20-2010 01:30 PM)LRTrojan Wrote:  When we win 20 games or more, the proof is still in the pudding. Look at all the empty seats. When the best we can do is draw around 4,000 for a Ole Miss, or someone of that stature, the program is still a failure. And to be perfectly honest, when we draw 4,000, they are hog fans coming to see Ole Miss, not the Trojans. Then, when we play someone else, the numbers drop like a rock to our normal 2,000 or so.

The reality is that the program is not a failure. We are paying our bills, winning our fair share of games, and graduating players. There are many midmajor programs who would love to be able to say that. The program was a "failure" under Newell who almost caused us to be shut down due to reckless spending, huge budget shortfalls, player arrests, and horrible academics. I guess it depends what your definition of "failure" is. Was the SMU program that got the death penalty a "success" or a "failure"? They sure won a ton of games.


I guess as you say, it depends on ones definition of "failure." If all you're interested in is graduating folks, then have an intramural program. If describing a successful basketball program, to me it means winning most of your games, playing exciting basketball, and attracting fans.

I realize that Mike Newell, like Matt Mouzy, will never get any credit from some of you. But, you didn't boycott the program when Mike was here. I didn't know you then, but I'll bet you enjoyed his run here. You can run him down till hell freezes over, but Shields won't ever be able to carry his jock as a basketball coach. I realize Newell was no saint, but he could damn well coach basketball, and certainly had interest up in the program. We had more fans drive to Pine Bluff to see the Trojans play someone like Stetson when he was the coach, than Shields can draw for someone like Ole Miss at home. You won't make Shields a better coach by running Newell down.

I've always wondered who was on the Hall of Fame committe that is keeping Mike out of the Trojan Hall of Fame.

I never questioned Newell's charisma or that he was a pretty decent basketball coach. But coming close to having your basketball program shut down is as close to failure as I can think of. Probably, it was unfair having Mike as AD and head coach. Pretty hard to say no to yourself when you are making budget proposals.


"Pretty decent basketball coach" huh. A .689 winning percentage, and you're only a "pretty decent basketball coach." What does that make Shields, with a .543 winning percentage thru last season?
12-20-2010 03:57 PM
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outsideualr Offline
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RE: How can we measure where the program is
(12-20-2010 03:57 PM)LRTrojan Wrote:  
(12-20-2010 03:38 PM)mjs Wrote:  
(12-20-2010 02:38 PM)LRTrojan Wrote:  
(12-20-2010 02:10 PM)mjs Wrote:  
(12-20-2010 01:30 PM)LRTrojan Wrote:  When we win 20 games or more, the proof is still in the pudding. Look at all the empty seats. When the best we can do is draw around 4,000 for a Ole Miss, or someone of that stature, the program is still a failure. And to be perfectly honest, when we draw 4,000, they are hog fans coming to see Ole Miss, not the Trojans. Then, when we play someone else, the numbers drop like a rock to our normal 2,000 or so.

The reality is that the program is not a failure. We are paying our bills, winning our fair share of games, and graduating players. There are many midmajor programs who would love to be able to say that. The program was a "failure" under Newell who almost caused us to be shut down due to reckless spending, huge budget shortfalls, player arrests, and horrible academics. I guess it depends what your definition of "failure" is. Was the SMU program that got the death penalty a "success" or a "failure"? They sure won a ton of games.


I guess as you say, it depends on ones definition of "failure." If all you're interested in is graduating folks, then have an intramural program. If describing a successful basketball program, to me it means winning most of your games, playing exciting basketball, and attracting fans.

I realize that Mike Newell, like Matt Mouzy, will never get any credit from some of you. But, you didn't boycott the program when Mike was here. I didn't know you then, but I'll bet you enjoyed his run here. You can run him down till hell freezes over, but Shields won't ever be able to carry his jock as a basketball coach. I realize Newell was no saint, but he could damn well coach basketball, and certainly had interest up in the program. We had more fans drive to Pine Bluff to see the Trojans play someone like Stetson when he was the coach, than Shields can draw for someone like Ole Miss at home. You won't make Shields a better coach by running Newell down.

I've always wondered who was on the Hall of Fame committe that is keeping Mike out of the Trojan Hall of Fame.

I never questioned Newell's charisma or that he was a pretty decent basketball coach. But coming close to having your basketball program shut down is as close to failure as I can think of. Probably, it was unfair having Mike as AD and head coach. Pretty hard to say no to yourself when you are making budget proposals.


"Pretty decent basketball coach" huh. A .689 winning percentage, and you're only a "pretty decent basketball coach." What does that make Shields, with a .543 winning percentage thru last season?

I can't argue the coaching abilities of either. I think that some situations are better for some coaches than others. I believe Steve would be a great coach at a school that had a built in recruiting base.
Even a Big 10 school where he could recruit the type of kids who fit his coaching system. I think he's done as well as could be expected here.

But he hasn't been able to recruit enough of the type players we need to consistently win big here. There are some coaches who are entertainers. They could sell anything to anyone. Of course some of them get into trouble. We don't need that type of coach. But that's probably what it will eventually take to move this program to another level. We'll always have a pretty good team with Steve as coach. Will we be able to recruit players, some of whom who could play at a higher level? It hasn't happened in nearly eight years. We could still win the Sun Belt. But that isn't saying a lot this year. Where will the program be in five years? That's what you have to look at. How long can the program just float along like we've been doing. This is the question I would be asking myself if I were the AD.04-cheers
12-20-2010 04:08 PM
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mjs Offline
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RE: How can we measure where the program is
(12-20-2010 03:57 PM)LRTrojan Wrote:  
(12-20-2010 03:38 PM)mjs Wrote:  
(12-20-2010 02:38 PM)LRTrojan Wrote:  
(12-20-2010 02:10 PM)mjs Wrote:  
(12-20-2010 01:30 PM)LRTrojan Wrote:  When we win 20 games or more, the proof is still in the pudding. Look at all the empty seats. When the best we can do is draw around 4,000 for a Ole Miss, or someone of that stature, the program is still a failure. And to be perfectly honest, when we draw 4,000, they are hog fans coming to see Ole Miss, not the Trojans. Then, when we play someone else, the numbers drop like a rock to our normal 2,000 or so.

The reality is that the program is not a failure. We are paying our bills, winning our fair share of games, and graduating players. There are many midmajor programs who would love to be able to say that. The program was a "failure" under Newell who almost caused us to be shut down due to reckless spending, huge budget shortfalls, player arrests, and horrible academics. I guess it depends what your definition of "failure" is. Was the SMU program that got the death penalty a "success" or a "failure"? They sure won a ton of games.


I guess as you say, it depends on ones definition of "failure." If all you're interested in is graduating folks, then have an intramural program. If describing a successful basketball program, to me it means winning most of your games, playing exciting basketball, and attracting fans.

I realize that Mike Newell, like Matt Mouzy, will never get any credit from some of you. But, you didn't boycott the program when Mike was here. I didn't know you then, but I'll bet you enjoyed his run here. You can run him down till hell freezes over, but Shields won't ever be able to carry his jock as a basketball coach. I realize Newell was no saint, but he could damn well coach basketball, and certainly had interest up in the program. We had more fans drive to Pine Bluff to see the Trojans play someone like Stetson when he was the coach, than Shields can draw for someone like Ole Miss at home. You won't make Shields a better coach by running Newell down.

I've always wondered who was on the Hall of Fame committe that is keeping Mike out of the Trojan Hall of Fame.

I never questioned Newell's charisma or that he was a pretty decent basketball coach. But coming close to having your basketball program shut down is as close to failure as I can think of. Probably, it was unfair having Mike as AD and head coach. Pretty hard to say no to yourself when you are making budget proposals.


"Pretty decent basketball coach" huh. A .689 winning percentage, and you're only a "pretty decent basketball coach." What does that make Shields, with a .543 winning percentage thru last season?

Okay, Newell was a "great" coach at UALR. Don't know what his record was at Lamar, but he was fired from that job. Couldn't get a another DI job in 20 years. Did quite well at UAM, but apparently got fired from that job as well. All in all, I'll stick with my statement that he's a pretty decent basketball coach. No more, no less.
12-20-2010 04:48 PM
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LRTrojan Offline
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RE: How can we measure where the program is
(12-20-2010 04:48 PM)mjs Wrote:  Okay, Newell was a "great" coach at UALR. Don't know what his record was at Lamar, but he was fired from that job. Couldn't get a another DI job in 20 years. Did quite well at UAM, but apparently got fired from that job as well. All in all, I'll stick with my statement that he's a pretty decent basketball coach. No more, no less.



I don't have a problem if that's how you feel about his ability. Everyone to their own thing, but I'd be interested in your opinion of Shields coaching ability. And I thought that you considered Shields a great coach.
12-20-2010 06:52 PM
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MICHAELSPAPPY Offline
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RE: How can we measure where the program is
I will readily admit that I don't know where the program is. I'm not smart enough in basketball to figure that all out. I just know that this is a fun program to root for and I have enjoyed being a Trojan fan. It has given me a great deal of pleasure, win or lose. I don't have to hold my nose to root for Little Rock. I don't get too bound up in won-lost records. I just try to have fun being a fan.
12-20-2010 08:26 PM
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mjs Offline
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RE: How can we measure where the program is
(12-20-2010 08:26 PM)MICHAELSPAPPY Wrote:  I will readily admit that I don't know where the program is. I'm not smart enough in basketball to figure that all out. I just know that this is a fun program to root for and I have enjoyed being a Trojan fan. It has given me a great deal of pleasure, win or lose. I don't have to hold my nose to root for Little Rock. I don't get too bound up in won-lost records. I just try to have fun being a fan.

What a novel concept. But I think I like it. I used to live and die with UALR wins and losses. I was bad, but Mr. Mediocrity was worse. He couldn't stand to sit in his seat but would pace in the exit ramp at Barton at the end of close games. I think we've both mellowed with age. We simply enjoy the games. Enjoy our 22 inch leather seats. Know that the program is sound financially. Are fairly confident we won't see our player's mug shots on the evenng news. We've seen 4 excellent DI basketball programs come into the arena this year and we won 3 of them. Seeing an SEC team and making them sweat, just a little, was fun as well. I have no complaints with the program. I still get pissed over the lack of attendance just like I did back in the Newell days. However, I now realize that there's really nothing I can do about it and the folks that don't show up are the ones missing out on a good time. Since we have a fiscally responsible AD I no longer have to worry that poor attendance will possibly result in the program shutting down like I did in the Newell era. Now the only thing I have to worry about is losing a game, which is not really that big a deal in the scheme of things. Losing the program would have been devastating to me. I know folks from Brooklyn who still haven't gotten over losing the Dodgers.
12-20-2010 09:46 PM
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