(10-01-2010 06:24 AM)Shannon Panther Wrote:  We already have 2 classes of members, FB and non FB members. We don't need a third class of FB only. TCU is in a position to demand all or nothing. The CUSA teams might take a FB only, but TCU is in a much better position.

The Big East is in a much better bargaining position than TCU, and if the BE offered a football-only membership, TCU would accept it in a heartbeat. They are about to be in a 10-team league alongside:

1. Air Force
2. Boise State
3. Cal State/Fresno
4. Cal State/San Diego
5. Colorado State
6. Nevada/Las Vegas
7. Nevada/Reno
8. New Mexico
9. Wyoming

There is some good football in that league (some of it's horrible). Some good hoops, too. But in terms of national media-exposure, it will be virtually invisible anywhere outside the states of Idaho, Nevada, New Mexico, and Wyoming.

TCU will accept absolutely ANYTHING it can get from a BCS league. If the BE wants them, the Frogs are available on any terms the BE wants.

Now, whether TCU makes sense for the BE or not, I'm not sure. I kind of doubt it. But I accept the fact that a lot of people whose opinion I respect seem to think it is a great idea for everyone involved. We'll see how it goes.

(10-01-2010 06:16 AM)UABGT Wrote:  TCU adds value to the big east for the football members but hurts the non football schools. Why should Seton Hall and Georgetown have to pay to send their soccer teams to ft worth just to help the football teams with nothing in return?
The answer is to offer TCU a football only status along with sending four of the football members basketball teams to TCU each year. its not easy getting quality basketball teams to play home games when you are not in a major basketball conference.
Doing this allows TCU to play basketball in a conference they can win in and have a very attractive home schedule to sell season ticket holders. That lessens the blow of moving you non football teams to a lesser conference I keeps the nonfootball members happy because they dont have to increase their travel expenses. The football members only have to play one away game in basket ball every other year @ TCU which they would have to do if TCU was added as a full member. This also keeps TCUs costs down by keeping the smaller sports in a local conference.

why do you really care?

(10-01-2010 05:19 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(10-01-2010 06:24 AM)Shannon Panther Wrote:  We already have 2 classes of members, FB and non FB members. We don't need a third class of FB only. TCU is in a position to demand all or nothing. The CUSA teams might take a FB only, but TCU is in a much better position.

The Big East is in a much better bargaining position than TCU, and if the BE offered a football-only membership, TCU would accept it in a heartbeat. They are about to be in a 10-team league alongside:

1. Air Force
2. Boise State
3. Cal State/Fresno
4. Cal State/San Diego
5. Colorado State
6. Nevada/Las Vegas
7. Nevada/Reno
8. New Mexico
9. Wyoming

There is some good football in that league (some of it's horrible). Some good hoops, too. But in terms of national media-exposure, it will be virtually invisible anywhere outside the states of Idaho, Nevada, New Mexico, and Wyoming.

TCU will accept absolutely ANYTHING it can get from a BCS league. If the BE wants them, the Frogs are available on any terms the BE wants.

Now, whether TCU makes sense for the BE or not, I'm not sure. I kind of doubt it. But I accept the fact that a lot of people whose opinion I respect seem to think it is a great idea for everyone involved. We'll see how it goes.

Exactly. TCU isn't in position to make major demands. I keep seeing people say that TCU will have better options (this coming from TCU fans on other boards) but that isn't true at all. The SEC is interested in Texas but that is only in the form of the Longhorns or Aggies. The Big Ten is the same thing. The ACC and Pac-10 aren't interested in TCU at all and the Big 12 has enough Texas schools. The Big East is their last and best shot at getting into the BCS. It comes at a time where the Big East can maximize the value of TCU using a Big East Network. Win-win for everybody.

(10-01-2010 07:37 AM)buckaineer Wrote:  Big East schools on both sides realize times are changing and they must change or their league won't be around to worry about such things. A top ten program is available now. A couple of hundred miles more than Tampa isn't going to dissuade them. Miami may have been further away than TCU.

Wow. I am shocked. Especially coming from the guy who wrote:

buckaineer Wrote:I think the "distance" factor would be more in the minds of Big East officials than anywhere-they've been burnt by out of the footprint teams before and don't want a repeat. As far as TCU I don't think that they would turn down an invitation at all--it's a bigger question as to if the Big East would invite them. They should do so immediately IMO.

buckaineer Wrote:The distance from most BE schools, possible desire of them to move into a closer BCS league, "cultural fit" and yes their basketball are the things much more likely to be of concern than attendance.

(08-18-2010 10:00 AM)buckaineer Wrote:  

(08-18-2010 09:48 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(08-18-2010 09:25 AM)buckaineer Wrote:  

(08-18-2010 09:06 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(08-18-2010 07:08 AM)buckaineer Wrote:  The issue with adding TCU other than the distance between them and BE shools may be the Big East doesn't know that several of its teams are going to be there when all finishes up. If more than one BE team playing football were to leave then other defections are likely as well. This makes adding teams now a risky proposition as bb schools and the football schools that don't know if they'll end up elsewhere would probably rather wait and see than be chained to teams scattered around that they have little in common with. For a TCU it would be a risky propostion as well without guarantees from all teams or most teams remaining in the fold. No one at this point is likely to guarantee the others anything because more attractive options are going to be out there for many if not all.

It's not that great a distance. TCU is 1513 miles from Syracuse, while USF is 1274 miles away for the Orange. We're talking a difference of about 250 miles, which isn't that great a difference...

Get your facts straight, buck...

My facts are straight. They are very far away from most Big East schools and still farther than the farthest league school in football is currently from Syracuse. I'm sure this is true for other BE programs as well (editors note, this is not true) The point of my post was mainly about stability and membership. Learn how to read bit...

The trip to TCU will add an extra 250 miles. But since it's to a nice airport not that far away from the campus, it isn't that great a difference. I know you seem to think it is. But I keep advising you against thinking. It's a dangerous habit, and always gets you into trouble. You should stop doing it...

As for learning how to read your inane posts... Why would I want to do that? They say nothing worth reading...

Since you can't read or comprehend then it's best you don't read my posts. Wouldn't want to trouble your little brain with facts like 250 miles more is a larger distance or anything like that. I also never said anything about this distance being something that would stop the Big East from adding them-just that it would be a consideration. I know you like to make b.s. up and all that, but you might try growing up a little bit and dealing with reality before you try and go around bashing someone with nonsense next time.

(01-07-2010 05:24 PM)buckaineer Wrote:  Preferring a BCS team or teams as well but if that doesn't work out, I also like the thought of going way west rather than southeastif it means keeping the BCS bid. TCU and Houston would be good choices for market size and very competitive teams. Just don't know if the distance thing would work.

On one of those, you even bashed someone for daring to say that TCU is not too far away. Yet you will probably say you have been championing them the whole time, right?

(10-01-2010 04:25 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  Note that the Pac-10 schools all travel massive distances compared to BC or other perceived geographic outliers (Penn State in the Big Ten, Iowa State in the Big 12, etc.), yet no one EVER talks about the distances on the West Coast. It's all perception

Case in point

Home Opponent Distance(km)Flight time
Colorado Arizona 1005 1:35
Colorado Arizona St 943 1:47
Colorado California 1492 2:10
Colorado Oregon 1540 2:14
Colorado Oregon St 1565 2:15
Colorado Stanford 1497 2:10
Colorado UCLA 1331 1:59
Colorado USC 1331 1:59
Colorado Utah 569 1:14
Colorado Washington 1608 2:08
Colorado Wash St 1220 1:51

vs.
Home Opponent Distance Flight time
TCU Cincinnati 1357 2:00
TCU UConn 2432 3:17
TCU Louisville 1215 1:50
TCU Pittsburgh 1769 2:30
TCU Rutgers** 2257 3:05
TCU So Florida 1523 2:12
TCU Syracuse 2180 2:59
TCU Villanova 2140 2:56
TCU West Virginia* 1738 2:28
TCU DePaul 1331 1:59
TCU Georgetown 1954 2:53
TCU Marquette 1414 2:05
TCU Notre Dame 1398 2:03
TCU Providence 2500 3:22


For that matter:
Home Opponent Distance Flight time Diff/TCU
USF Cincinnati 1258 1:43 0:07
USF UConn 1743 2:28 0:49
USF Louisville 1186 1:48 0:02
USF Pittsburgh 1407 2:04 0:26
USF Rutgers** 1617 2:19 0:46
USF TCU 1523 2:12 0:00
USF Syracuse 1773 2:30 0:29
USF Villanova 1495 2:10 0:46
USF West Virginia* 1319 1:58 0:30
USF DePaul 1619 2:19 -0:20
USF Georgetown 1317 1:58 0:55
USF Marquette 1749 2:28 -0:23
USF Notre Dame 1566 2:15 -0:12
USF Providence 1842 2:35 0:47

*Assumes flying into Morgantown
** Seton Hall and St. johns would use the same airport as Rutgers

For 5 of the 8 schools above, the travel time distance between going to TCU and USF, a current conference member, is less than 30 minutes of travel time. I did not include USF in that number for obvious reasons, however, TCU is closer to USF than half of the football playing members, and 3/4 of the entire conference. If we include non football members, 3 of the seven are actually closer to TCU than USF. So for the 16 current BE members, half are within 30 minutes of travel time of the trip they make to USf. Further, due to their locations and proximity to major airports, for non-revenue sports, who tend to use commercial travel, it will take less time for most teams to fly to TCU (or USF) than it will to travel to West Virginia, Notre Dame, and Providence.


Now, just to give some other examples, TCU isn't as far away from the majority of the Big East members as other conferences outlying teams. Notable other current conference mate distances. Please note that I only calculated airport time (it allowed to calculate to places even if there was no airport). Many of these schools are more than an hour from a major airport, but I did not count that in the travel time.

Home Opponent Distance Flight time
Texas Colorado 1243 1:52
Nebraska Penn State 1587 2:17
Penn State Iowa 1151 1:46
Penn State Wisconsin 990 1:51
Penn State Minnesota 1340 1:59
Miami Boston Co 2026 2:48
Miami Maryland 1487 2:10
Miami Va Tech 1271 1:54
Texas A&M Iowa State 1291 1:56
Texas A&M Colorado 1322 1:58
TCU BYU 1577 2:16
UTEP ECU 2727 3:38


By the way, no one complained when Texas was considering joining the Pac 10. Well Austin, TX is 2854 km from Seattle, and a whopping 3 hour 47 minute plain ride. Oh, and it is 1945 km and 2 hours and 45 minutes from Los Angeles, the closest original Pac 8 member, and is still a 2 hour plus plane ride to Tempe, AZ. or about as far away or further than TCU is from Louisville, Cincinnati, South Florida, West Virginia, and Pittsburgh.

Also, consider that most SEC schools are not located near major airports. Guess what, you can get from your school to TCU's campus, and vice versa faster than most every SEC school can get to their opponents (save for their instate team). Think about that. TCU to UConn is about the same in total travel time as a trip from Kentucky to Tennessee (aprx 4 hours).

Hopefully this puts to rest any percieved travel issues involved regarding TCU

(10-01-2010 10:18 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  Also, consider that most SEC schools are not located near major airports. Guess what, you can get from your school to TCU's campus, and vice versa faster than most every SEC school can get to their opponents (save for their instate team). Think about that. TCU to UConn is about the same in total travel time as a trip from Kentucky to Tennessee (aprx 4 hours).

Hopefully this puts to rest any perceived travel issues involved regarding TCU

Of course, there's "travel time" and there's "travel time." Lexington and Knoxville are 170 miles apart (~2-and-a-half hours by car) so there's no need for most people to buy an air-ticket.

Getting on a plane and traveling 4 hours puts wear and tear on a football team period. It is much easier and cheaper to travel 250 miles by bus than 4 hrs by air. That said, travel isn't going to be the main issue with this potential invite.

(10-02-2010 07:30 AM)SuperBadFan Wrote:  Getting on a plane and traveling 4 hours puts wear and tear on a football team period. It is much easier and cheaper to travel 250 miles by bus than 4 hrs by air. That said, travel isn't going to be the main issue with this potential invite.

TCU does not care about this issue. They already do a lot of traveling now.

If there is a "travel" issue...it should be with the fans. This is one of the things I have against CUSA. I have ECU season tickets and I go to as many away games as possible...unfortunately those away games are not CUSA opponents. It is just too damn far to travel to most of them.

I fully understand the BE goal of expansion into TV markets. It is all about money and that is what drives this. One of the negatives of this approach is however.. isolationism of your fan base. Only a handful of fans have the time and resources available to follow the teams as they travel farther away than a days drive. It is just the nature of what college football has become.....Big conferences stretched out all over the place with fans rarely interacting with each other and building rivalries.

Why does the BE always want schools to take bs deals? The hybrid just isn't worth it.

(10-01-2010 10:18 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  *Assumes flying into Morgantown

If I remember rightly, the Morgantown airport doesn't have a big enough runway for football team flights, which require larger planes to accommodate the entire team. I think team flights go into Clarksburg, about 30 minutes south of Morgantown on I-79...

teams don't fly into Morgantown

they fly into Bridgeport/Clarksburg airport

I guess I'm not totally senile yet...

(10-02-2010 12:43 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  Of course, there's "travel time" and there's "travel time." Lexington and Knoxville are 170 miles apart (~2-and-a-half hours by car) so there's no need for most people to buy an air-ticket.

My apologies. I was thinking of Gatlinburg when I posted that time. I know how logn it takes to get there, and I thought Knoxville was right next door.

(10-02-2010 09:18 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(10-01-2010 10:18 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  *Assumes flying into Morgantown

If I remember rightly, the Morgantown airport doesn't have a big enough runway for football team flights, which require larger planes to accommodate the entire team. I think team flights go into Clarksburg, about 30 minutes south of Morgantown on I-79...

That was why I made note of it, and only for WVU. Most commercial flights, which is what non revenue teams often use, I would assume go through Pittsburgh, but I don;t know enough about that and didn't want to deal with that when I was writing that last night.

Anyway, I agree that travel-distance will be, at most, a secondary issue in all this. I think Adcorbett and I are on the same page with that.

And I say again that if the BE offered a football-only membership to TCU, the Frogs would accept it no-questions-asked. I don't know enough to handicap the likelohood of that happening, just saying that if it did happen TCU would jump on it right away.

(10-02-2010 10:01 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  I guess I'm not totally senile yet...

the team flies out of Bridgeport as well

(10-02-2010 11:56 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  And I say again that if the BE offered a football-only membership to TCU, the Frogs would accept it no-questions-asked. I don't know enough to handicap the likelohood of that happening, just saying that if it did happen TCU would jump on it right away.

I don't even understand why anyone would want to only invite them for just football. That makes no sense. Yes, their basketball sucks. So what. If you add them, guess what happens? One of the teams in your middle to lower tier, that have big fan bases or are traditionally good, that are currently down (like Cincinnati, St. johns, Seton Hall, or DePaul) because they just get beat up by the top eight or nine teams, will simply move up the ladder, and become a marquee team again. If TCU becomes a team that wins only one or two conference games a year, makes teams that have had quality wins and decent records over the past few years, just not enough voerall wins to get bids, start getting bids again. For example, there is a good chance Uconn, Cincinnati, and Seton Hall could have made the tourney last year if you give them an extra win. Guess how much that is worth?* A St. Johns or Cincinnati that starts winning again, would be a more valuable "addition" than ANY available team, except for maybe Memphis.

Further, if I were a basketball school, where six of the eight have missed multiple NCAA tourneys in the last five years, I would be all for adding a team that adds a wins to my schedule. Contrary to popular belief, adding Memphis would probably water down the conference in basketball more than any other team, because you start running into overkill, with regards to having too many top teams, where they all beat each other up, and you end up with fewer top 4 seeds in the tourney. Further adding a team of lesser tradition, does more to help team eight grab an NCAA spot, and help teams nine, ten, and maybe even eleven grab one of those three additional NCAA slots that will be available this year than adding a team with more tradition would (who presumably would be competing for league titles). As a matter of fact, I would say even if two teams are added, a lesser basketball team (ECU or UCF) would do more for BE basketball than a team like Memphis, using the logic above.

*Each NCAA game played is worth one money unit, which is worth about $300,000 per unit after expenses. Money units are averaged and paid out over a six year period. Basically, while the math does not work out exactly this way, if your NCAA units are pretty steady, one NCAA game is worth approximately $1.8 million per team AFTER expenses (paid over a 6 year period) with the new contract.

Value per appearance per team per year
1st round $1.8 million
2nd round $3.6 million
Sweet 16 $5.4 million
Elite 8 $7.2 million
Final Four $9 million
Title Game $10.8 million


When you add in expenses, it only takes three money units to equal as much money to the conference, specifcally the football schools as if a team claimed an at large BCS spot. BB $5.4mm/17 = $317k per team, vs FB $3.5mm/10=$350k. BCS at large teams get approximately $4.5 million per appearance, before expenses, which are usually around $1mm per team.

(10-02-2010 10:52 AM)adcorbett Wrote:  

(10-02-2010 12:43 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  Of course, there's "travel time" and there's "travel time." Lexington and Knoxville are 170 miles apart (~2-and-a-half hours by car) so there's no need for most people to buy an air-ticket.

My apologies. I was thinking of Gatlinburg when I posted that time. I know how logn it takes to get there, and I thought Knoxville was right next door.

Knoxville is about 40 minutes away from Gatlinburg - if you know the back roads. If you don't, and there's traffic, it could be much longer...

(10-02-2010 12:52 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Knoxville is about 40 minutes away from Gatlinburg - if you know the back roads. If you don't, and there's traffic, it could be much longer...

I fall in the latter category. I have only gone to Gatlinburg a couple of times, but it is just under 5 hours from Louisville, and just under four hours from Lexington. That was what I was using for my basis.


Back to the point, me personally I consider air travel to be far less painless than bus. Further, once you have to get in the air (and for example, if you are Louisville), you are flying to 3/4 of the teams anyway, and extra half hour in the air makes little difference.

adcorbett, let me know the next time you go to Gatlinburg. I'll show you the quickest route from Knoxville on the back roads. It's a straight shot south, avoids all the traffic through Sevierville, and bypasses a good bit of the Pigeon Forge traffic. You'll come out on the main road about 7 miles from Gatlinburg. In season it cuts at least 45 minutes off your trip...

As for air travel, most BEast schools are near major air hubs. There are a few exceptions, and WVU is one of 'em. But we're close enough to a major hub for TCU to be comfortable. Out west, some schools are quite a drive from any kind of airport. That's not a problem in the east...

(10-02-2010 12:30 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  

(10-02-2010 11:56 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  And I say again that if the BE offered a football-only membership to TCU, the Frogs would accept it no-questions-asked. I don't know enough to handicap the likelohood of that happening, just saying that if it did happen TCU would jump on it right away.

I don't even understand why anyone would want to only invite them for just football. That makes no sense. Yes, their basketball sucks. So what. If you add them, guess what happens? One of the teams in your middle to lower tier, that have big fan bases or are traditionally good, that are currently down (like Cincinnati, St. johns, Seton Hall, or DePaul) because they just get beat up by the top eight or nine teams, will simply move up the ladder, and become a marquee team again. If TCU becomes a team that wins only one or two conference games a year, makes teams that have had quality wins and decent records over the past few years, just not enough voerall wins to get bids, start getting bids again. For example, there is a good chance Uconn, Cincinnati, and Seton Hall could have made the tourney last year if you give them an extra win. Guess how much that is worth?* A St. Johns or Cincinnati that starts winning again, would be a more valuable "addition" than ANY available team, except for maybe Memphis.

Further, if I were a basketball school, where six of the eight have missed multiple NCAA tourneys in the last five years, I would be all for adding a team that adds a wins to my schedule. Contrary to popular belief, adding Memphis would probably water down the conference in basketball more than any other team, because you start running into overkill, with regards to having too many top teams, where they all beat each other up, and you end up with fewer top 4 seeds in the tourney. Further adding a team of lesser tradition, does more to help team eight grab an NCAA spot, and help teams nine, ten, and maybe even eleven grab one of those three additional NCAA slots that will be available this year than adding a team with more tradition would (who presumably would be competing for league titles). As a matter of fact, I would say even if two teams are added, a lesser basketball team (ECU or UCF) would do more for BE basketball than a team like Memphis, using the logic above.

*Each NCAA game played is worth one money unit, which is worth about $300,000 per unit after expenses. Money units are averaged and paid out over a six year period. Basically, while the math does not work out exactly this way, if your NCAA units are pretty steady, one NCAA game is worth approximately $1.8 million per team AFTER expenses (paid over a 6 year period) with the new contract.

Value per appearance per team per year
1st round $1.8 million
2nd round $3.6 million
Sweet 16 $5.4 million
Elite 8 $7.2 million
Final Four $9 million
Title Game $10.8 million


When you add in expenses, it only takes three money units to equal as much money to the conference, specifcally the football schools as if a team claimed an at large BCS spot. BB $5.4mm/17 = $317k per team, vs FB $3.5mm/10=$350k. BCS at large teams get approximately $4.5 million per appearance, before expenses, which are usually around $1mm per team.

Exactly. Again though, the same people who are against TCU were the same ones who said to the Big East would fail because we were a basketball conference. Now, we're talking about adding a strong football school and the same people are questioning the move because they're not good enough in basketball? People have to make up their minds or stop looking for reasons to shoot this down.