(04-13-2010 04:40 PM)pitt83 Wrote:  

(04-13-2010 04:31 PM)esayem Wrote:  They why not the North Dakota Fightin' Lakota?

or the New Orleans Surrendering French...

(04-13-2010 04:31 PM)esayem Wrote:  They why not the North Dakota Fightin' Lakota?

First off, it's spelled LAKHOTA. Second, the Lakhota would never agree to it, unless the USA returns ownership of their sacred Black Hills - and wipes the faces off Mt. Rushmore. That's a highly visible insult to every Lakhota that has ever lived, and a desecration of their sacred lands by their mortal enemies...

After all, how would you feel if somebody erected a monument to your family's murderers on your property?

(04-13-2010 05:47 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  First off, it's spelled LAKHOTA. Second, the Lakhota would never agree to it, unless the USA returns ownership of their sacred Black Hills - and wipes the faces off Mt. Rushmore. That's a highly visible insult to every Lakhota that has ever lived, and a desecration of their sacred lands by their mortal enemies...

After all, how would you feel if somebody erected a monument to your family's murderers on your property?

Hey man, I have no problem if the people the sports teams are named after don't want it that way and it's changed. Although, I've seen sources that say Sioux comes from a longer Ojibwa word meaning "speaker of a different language".

If you use the definition provided at lakhota.com, it says "Sioux" is a French rendering of the Ojibwa word, "treacherous snakes."

Definitions in translated terms depends on the translator...

(04-13-2010 07:04 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  If you use the definition provided at lakhota.com, it says "Sioux" is a French rendering of the Ojibwa word, "treacherous snakes."

Definitions in translated terms depends on the translator...

Yikes, that's no good.

(04-12-2010 09:47 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  They never should have used that name to begin with. The word Sioux is actually an Ojibwa pejorative, meaning 'enemy'. The tribes known as the Sioux by the white men are actually the Lakhota, Dakota, and Nakota. It was the French who gave these tribes a name used by their mortal enemy, and the USA compounded the error by using it as well. This helps to explain part of the reason why these nations are still technically at war with the United States...

By the way, I'm half Lakhota (Oglalla on my mom's side, and Hunkpappa on my father's), along with a smattering of Cherokee, Chicasaw, Choctaw, and Shawnee thrown in for good measure among my German, English, and Irish ancestors. I've NEVER liked that name. I'm glad it's gone...

Since you're also part Irish, does the use of Celtics by the NBA and the Fighting Irish by Various schools bother you?

Nope. Most of the Irish folks I know could care less what people think about 'em, as long as they treat them ok. The Irish people I know are some of the friendliest people around, unless they're drunk and in a bad mood. The Irish I know are usually happy drunks...

Thanks, Bit! :)

Most people of Irish descent that I know (and I am both Irish-American and a citizen of the Republic of Ireland) consider the "Fighting Irish" and "Celtics" names of sports teams as items of pride and not derogatory at all.

And by the way, Bit, the Irish in the 7th Calvary may have lost the Battle of the Little Big Horn, but they were led by a (non-Irish) fool in George Custer and heavily outnumbered (approximately 264 men with Custer's column versus several thousand Lakhota and Cheyenne warriors).

Irish troops have given a good account of themselves throughout history, including in America during the Civil War, the Plains Wars, and World War I. (Fighting 69th Regiment, etc.).

The Irish in West Virginia mostly went into the southern WV coal fields, and the mining industry treated them no better than the British did...

Custer really wasn't a General. He was a political appointee with a lot of political pull, and absolutely no respect for his enemy, or his President. A TRUE General never disregards an enemy - or his Commander in Chief. But Custer wanted a big victory he could ride into the White House, and we all know where that got him...

My Grandfather got off the boat from Ireland in Philadelphia at age 18. A guy asked if he wanted a job. He said yes.

The guy told him to get in the train boxcar nearby. He ended up in Southwestern Pennsylvania in a patch town called Shamrock (since most there were Irish) near Uniontown (about 25 miles north of Morgantown---I grew up in New Salem about a mile from Shamrock).

He was a coal miner until he retired. My Dad was a breaker boy in the mines at age 13. I am real familiar with how the Irish miners were treated (badly).

A fellow who lived on the mountain where I grew up was the son of an Irish immigrant who went into the southern WV coal fields near Welch, WV. He remembers the rocket boys too, and loved pointing out all the errors in the movie. But he saw all of the coal industry he wanted as a child and became a rural teacher. The Big D was a mountain of a man with the calmest demeanor you ever saw. He had a bit of trouble walking due to frostbite he got at the battle of Incheon during the Korean War. But at the end of his life, he spent most his remaining time on Earth in Central America helping those nations improve their educational systems. He and his family were awarded honorary citizenship in Belize for his efforts...

(04-13-2010 07:04 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  If you use the definition provided at lakhota.com, it says "Sioux" is a French rendering of the Ojibwa word, "treacherous snakes."

The Standing Rock Sioux tribe had an election to replace Sioux with Oyate. Guess which name overwhelmingly won: Sioux.

Quote:The name "Sioux" is an abbreviated form of Nadouessioux borrowed into French Canadian from Nadoüessioüak from the early Odawa exonym: naadowesiwag "Sioux".[8] It was first used by Jean Nicolet in 1640.[9] The Proto-Algonquian form *na·towe·wa, meaning "Northern Iroquoian", has reflexes in several daughter languages that refer to a small rattlesnake (massasauga, Sistrurus).[10] This information was interpreted by some that the Ottawa borrowing was an insult. However, this Proto-Algonquian term most likely was ultimately derived from a form *-a·towe·, meaning simply "speak foreign language",[8] Later this was extended in meaning in some Algonquian languages to refer to the massasauga. Thus, contrary to many accounts, the old Odawa word naadowesiwag did not equate the Sioux with snakes. This is not confirmed though, since usage over the previous decades has led to this term having negative connotations to those tribes to which it refers. This would explain why many tribes have rejected this term as an autonym.

You are so full of it, bitcruncher. You've posted that you've spent time on the White Pine reservation: which coincidentally doesn't exist.

The Irish/Celtics and Dutchmen names typically came about because the players on the first sports teams at those institutions were predominantly of that ancestry, and that's how they'd be described in the newspapers. That is clearly not the case with the tribal names, though there will always be someone who tries to save it by claiming that the team was named after a player who was 1/4th cherokee or some such thing. Those names were originally chosen because the players wanted to be associated with something savage and intimidating, and at the time nothing was scarier than the native Americans. It's the same reason most animal mascots are predators, or at least aggressors. Looked at in that context, the tribal names were not originally chosen for entirely complimentary reasons. Over time those names have instead turned into more of a regional identifier, and some tribes have decided that they'd rather keep the name around and at least have a public reminder that they exist, but the PC types are not completely wrong about this. There is ultimately an insult buried in why those names were chosen. Nobody would choose those names now, they're from a different era.

(04-12-2010 09:36 AM)mattsarz Wrote:  

(04-12-2010 09:25 AM)brista21 Wrote:  

(04-12-2010 09:21 AM)esayem Wrote:  http://www.freep.com/article/20100410/SP...p-nickname

Looks like North Dakota ends the fight to keep their nickname. Kind of dumb in my opinion when the Cleveland Indians still have a silly caricature logo, and Redskin is still an NFL nickname. PC universities I guess; maybe they should just get rid of nicknames and mascots altogether, sheesh. I think the Fighting Sioux is at least an honorable tribute to the natives of the great plains. Hell, I'm told Eastern Michigan used to be called the Huron. Marquette dropped Warriors, which is just plain stupid.

Yup and from what I've heard the two main groupings of the tribe aren't actually opposed to the school using this as the nickname. NJ Devils forwards Zach Parise and Travis Zajac both played for North Dakota and didn't exactly hold back on voicing their disapproval with the move.

One of the two tribes could not guarantee support to UND. This tribe I guess had some voting laws that they could not overturn to validate that the tribe gave support, so the university made their change.

The Spirit Lake Sioux tribe voted last year in favor of authorizing the Sioux nickname 67 % to 33%.

The Standing Rock reservation until this year had a leader (Ron McNeil - who changed his name to Ron His Horse is Thunder) who was adamantly opposed to the name. More than 50% of Standing Rock voters have petitioned to allow a vote on the nickname. Standing Rock does not currently have a referendum by petition, but they are currently working on allowing a referendum. If Standing Rock votes, it is expected that the nickname will easily get a 60% supermajority. Fighting Sioux clothing with the logo is one of the most popular clothing items on ND reservations. Among the First Nations in Canada, with the emphasis on hockey, it is also exceedingly popular.

If Standing Rock is allowed to vote before the November 2010 NCAA deadline, there will be major pressure on the SBoHE to reconsider. State residents, alumni, and native americans are all overwhelminginly in support of the name and logo.

Ironically, the NCAA stated that Indian nicknames should be in the hands of Native Americans. The ND SBoHE took that privilege away from Standing Rock because of impatience on the part of UND leadership and faculty (who are overwhelmingly against the name). The Summit League had prevented UND from being accepted into that conference until the name was "resolved". Although the Summit League presidents claim they would accept the name if ND Sioux tribes did, I consider the Summit League presidents to be disingenuous and fearful of retaliation from the NCAA because of the ND SBoHE nickname suit against the NCAA. SBoHE officials have stated that Summit League presidents want the name gone.

The Fighting Sioux logo recently won Hockey News' best logo in all of hockey (NHL, Europe, minors, college, juniors, etc).

(04-14-2010 11:47 AM)NoDak Wrote:  

(04-13-2010 07:04 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  If you use the definition provided at lakhota.com, it says "Sioux" is a French rendering of the Ojibwa word, "treacherous snakes."

The Standing Rock Sioux tribe had an election to replace Sioux with Oyate. Guess which name overwhelmingly won: Sioux.

As I posted earlier, definitions in translated terms depend on the translator defining the terms. I notice you left that part out...

By the way, White Pine is in Canada. I bet you failed to note that too...

One other note, OYATE is the people's freedom movement emerging from the Lakota Freedom Delegation's action in Washington D.C. Oyate is also the term for a sacred passage into the spirit world for guidance. It would never become a term for the people...

(04-14-2010 12:06 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  By the way, White Pine is in Canada. I bet you failed to note that too...

One other note, OYATE is the people's freedom movement emerging from the Lakota Freedom Delegation's action in Washington D.C. Oyate is also the term for a sacred passage into the spirit world for guidance. It would never become a term for the people...

White Pine First Nation doesn't show up on any Google search. Sure you're not confusing it with Pine Ridge (SD) or White Earth (MN) or White Bear (Sask) or Whitecap (Sask) or Whitefish Lake (AB)? Hmm...

White Pine is in Canada. It's not part of what was once the Great Sioux Reservation. That reservation at one time included most of what is now South Dakota, although all the good land was taken away prior to 1900, the Black Hills first of all after a gold strike there. Why White Pine isn't on google, I don't know or care...

But google is merely a database that built itself upon work Information International Associates, Inc. of Oak Ridge, TN started in 1995, and completed in 1998 while I was still Systems Admin at IIa. We built a bibliographic database of World Wide Web sites, which became the foundation that all search engines built upon. But databases only contain that which people put into them. If something is left out of the database, you won't find it...

(04-14-2010 09:12 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Nope. Most of the Irish folks I know could care less what people think about 'em, as long as they treat them ok. The Irish people I know are some of the friendliest people around, unless they're drunk and in a bad mood. The Irish I know are usually happy drunks...

Well, I'm Irish, Scottish, Norse and Welsh... but I'm not a drunk.

YET!!!