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AP Poll, 3 Big East teams ranked
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CatsClaw Offline
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AP Poll, 3 Big East teams ranked
For some reason West Virginia didn't crack the rankings, they're sitting in at #27. That's ok though, because the Coaches Poll is the most important poll, and WVU should be ranked in the all important BCS poll.

Cincinnati #5, Pittsburgh #8, South Florida #23

http://espn.go.com/college-football/rankings
11-08-2009 01:08 PM
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bitcruncher Offline
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RE: AP Poll, 3 Big East teams ranked
Since this poll no longer counts toward BCS eligibility, it's irrelevant. Most of the nation's media totally ignores us, so they have no conception of how good we are...
11-08-2009 01:09 PM
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omniorange Offline
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RE: AP Poll, 3 Big East teams ranked
(11-08-2009 01:08 PM)CatsClaw Wrote:  For some reason West Virginia didn't crack the rankings, they're sitting in at #27. That's ok though, because the Coaches Poll is the most important poll, and WVU should be ranked in the all important BCS poll.

Cincinnati #5, Pittsburgh #8, South Florida #23

http://espn.go.com/college-football/rankings

Dumb to put Clemson ahead of West Virginia with Clemson having that ugly loss to a BAD Maryland team hanging over their heads.

Cheers,
Neil
11-08-2009 01:18 PM
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bitcruncher Offline
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RE: AP Poll, 3 Big East teams ranked
It's the southern writers voting up Clemson, just like the western voters voted up Oregon State. They need the ACC and Pac Tin represented to justify their stance on the matter...
11-08-2009 01:21 PM
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mattsarz Offline
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RE: AP Poll, 3 Big East teams ranked
Tell you what, I think a lack of style points on some of the Big East teams hurt this week. WV, based on UofL's poor play this year, should have won by more than 8 points. Cincy with the leads they had via UConn of double digit points needed to finish the game that way. Only Pitt was able to take advantage of that.
(This post was last modified: 11-08-2009 01:58 PM by mattsarz.)
11-08-2009 01:56 PM
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CatsClaw Offline
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RE: AP Poll, 3 Big East teams ranked
I don't think style even matters matt. UC beat Louisville by 31 points and fell from 5th to 8th when the polls came out. I'd liketo know who keeps voting TCU ahead of us.
(This post was last modified: 11-08-2009 02:00 PM by CatsClaw.)
11-08-2009 01:59 PM
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mattsarz Offline
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RE: AP Poll, 3 Big East teams ranked
(11-08-2009 01:59 PM)CatsClaw Wrote:  I don't think style even matters matt. UC beat Louisville by 31 points and fell from 5th to 8th when the polls came out. I'd liketo know who keeps voting TCU ahead of us.

I disagree right now. TCU hasn't allowed over 12 since 10/10 and has scored over 38 in every game during that stretch.

10/10 @AFA 20-17
10/17 CSU 44-6
10/24 @BYU 38-7 (#16 BYU at the time, a win that got them a lot of pub)
10/31 UNLV 41-0
11/7 @SDSU 55-12

Its a good run if your a Frog, particularly when the next game is against a top 15 Utah team at home. Plus with Wyoming and New Mexico after that, if you win vs. Utah, style points will be what differentiates you from Boise St. if you remain undefeated because SOS will take a hit with both Wyoming and winless New Mexico.

EDIT: My original quote said TCU hadn't allowed double digits. Duh! 12 is double digits.
(This post was last modified: 11-08-2009 02:45 PM by mattsarz.)
11-08-2009 02:11 PM
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bitcruncher Offline
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RE: AP Poll, 3 Big East teams ranked
BYU was overrated due to all the MWC love from the preseason. But look at the rest of the competiton. Not one team would have a winning record in a BCS conference. I'd bet every one of 'em would finish dead last in The BEast...
11-08-2009 02:32 PM
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mattsarz Offline
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RE: AP Poll, 3 Big East teams ranked
(11-08-2009 02:32 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  BYU was overrated due to all the MWC love from the preseason. But look at the rest of the competiton. Not one team would have a winning record in a BCS conference. I'd bet every one of 'em would finish dead last in The BEast...

Utah? Really? I don't believe that. The other two, likely, particularly since UNM is winless.
11-08-2009 02:44 PM
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bitcruncher Offline
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RE: AP Poll, 3 Big East teams ranked
(11-08-2009 02:44 PM)mattsarz Wrote:  
(11-08-2009 02:32 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  BYU was overrated due to all the MWC love from the preseason. But look at the rest of the competiton. Not one team would have a winning record in a BCS conference. I'd bet every one of 'em would finish dead last in The BEast...
Utah? Really? I don't believe that. The other two, likely, particularly since UNM is winless.
This was the list I was using for my prediction, matt...
(11-08-2009 02:11 PM)mattsarz Wrote:  10/10 @AFA 20-17
10/17 CSU 44-6
10/24 @BYU 38-7 (#16 BYU at the time, a win that got them a lot of pub)
10/31 UNLV 41-0
11/7 @SDSU 55-12
Where on that list do you see Utah?
(This post was last modified: 11-08-2009 02:53 PM by bitcruncher.)
11-08-2009 02:53 PM
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omniorange Offline
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RE: AP Poll, 3 Big East teams ranked
(11-08-2009 02:44 PM)mattsarz Wrote:  
(11-08-2009 02:32 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  BYU was overrated due to all the MWC love from the preseason. But look at the rest of the competiton. Not one team would have a winning record in a BCS conference. I'd bet every one of 'em would finish dead last in The BEast...

Utah? Really? I don't believe that. The other two, likely, particularly since UNM is winless.

Perhaps I am mistaken but I think bit may have been specifically referring to the list of 5 teams you had in the post vs TCU since 10/10.

BYU overrated and the others (meaning the 4 of AF, CSU, UNLV, and SDSU) not having a winning record in a BCS conference, even the Big 12 which is BAD this year, and finishing dead last in the Big East.

I think we can all acknowledge that TCU has a great team this year and that Utah is better than expected while BYU has been overrated.

TCU has a win over #22/22 BYU while Cincy has a win over #23/24 USF
TCU has a win over #24/26 Clemson while Cincy has a win over #26/28 Oregon State.

Slight edge to TCU. But after those two wins at the top the Bearcats next best wins over Rutgers, Fresno, and UConn far and away blow out the Frogs next best wins over Air Force, SMU, and SDSU. And the voters are not doing a deep analysis of the situation but simply going off the best wins at the top. Which isn't really unusual for both the media and the coaches.

Cheers,
Neil
11-08-2009 03:10 PM
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RE: AP Poll, 3 Big East teams ranked
The poll love for TCU is based on two factors in my opinion. One is that the voters feel bad because Utah got shafted last year and they are projecting their remorse upon this year's MWC standard bearer the same way referees come up with make-up calls after screwing up earlier in a game. The other thing is that there seems to be an agenda to vote the MWC up to BCS status by constantly ranking teams like BYU higher than they deserve based on one particular win while ignoring their embarrassing losses. I highly doubt these same people would actually support TCU in the BCS Title Game if push ever comes to shove though.
11-08-2009 10:50 PM
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RE: AP Poll, 3 Big East teams ranked
(11-08-2009 10:50 PM)Krocker Krapp Wrote:  The poll love for TCU is based on two factors in my opinion. One is that the voters feel bad because Utah got shafted last year and they are projecting their remorse upon this year's MWC standard bearer the same way referees come up with make-up calls after screwing up earlier in a game. The other thing is that there seems to be an agenda to vote the MWC up to BCS status by constantly ranking teams like BYU higher than they deserve based on one particular win while ignoring their embarrassing losses.

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11-09-2009 12:32 PM
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Frog in the Kitchen Sink Offline
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RE: AP Poll, 3 Big East teams ranked
(11-08-2009 10:50 PM)Krocker Krapp Wrote:  The poll love for TCU is based on two factors in my opinion. One is that the voters feel bad because Utah got shafted last year and they are projecting their remorse upon this year's MWC standard bearer the same way referees come up with make-up calls after screwing up earlier in a game. The other thing is that there seems to be an agenda to vote the MWC up to BCS status by constantly ranking teams like BYU higher than they deserve based on one particular win while ignoring their embarrassing losses. I highly doubt these same people would actually support TCU in the BCS Title Game if push ever comes to shove though.
I think this is a bit too paranoid of an analysis.

Bottom line is that both TCU and Cincy have strong teams and ranking them is an eye of the beholder type of thing. There really isn't much difference in SOS, so it comes down to personal preference. Right or wrong, I do think that TCU's 44-6 average MOV the last 4 games has had a positive effect, and probably pushed them up on a few ballots. I don't think it is any more than that, though.

As far as the Frogs, one point I do want to make is that this is a different TCU team than our strong teams of the past decade. TCU has been plagued in the past with great defense and average offense, but this team is very stong in both (only team in top 10 of both total offense and total defense). Add in the ST play, and this is the most complete team we've had this decade. Not to take anything away from Cincy, though. Like TCU, that is a top 5 worthy team with a good argument to be the best in the country. Definitely wish we had a playoff.
11-09-2009 12:54 PM
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RE: AP Poll, 3 Big East teams ranked
(11-09-2009 12:54 PM)Frog in the Kitchen Sink Wrote:  
(11-08-2009 10:50 PM)Krocker Krapp Wrote:  The poll love for TCU is based on two factors in my opinion. One is that the voters feel bad because Utah got shafted last year and they are projecting their remorse upon this year's MWC standard bearer the same way referees come up with make-up calls after screwing up earlier in a game. The other thing is that there seems to be an agenda to vote the MWC up to BCS status by constantly ranking teams like BYU higher than they deserve based on one particular win while ignoring their embarrassing losses. I highly doubt these same people would actually support TCU in the BCS Title Game if push ever comes to shove though.
I think this is a bit too paranoid of an analysis.

Bottom line is that both TCU and Cincy have strong teams and ranking them is an eye of the beholder type of thing. There really isn't much difference in SOS, so it comes down to personal preference. Right or wrong, I do think that TCU's 44-6 average MOV the last 4 games has had a positive effect, and probably pushed them up on a few ballots. I don't think it is any more than that, though.

As far as the Frogs, one point I do want to make is that this is a different TCU team than our strong teams of the past decade. TCU has been plagued in the past with great defense and average offense, but this team is very stong in both (only team in top 10 of both total offense and total defense). Add in the ST play, and this is the most complete team we've had this decade. Not to take anything away from Cincy, though. Like TCU, that is a top 5 worthy team with a good argument to be the best in the country. Definitely wish we had a playoff.

There is not a huge difference now in the schedule rankings, but by the time that the season is over, there will be a larger difference in schedule rank. UC plays top 10 bcs Pitt, and another top 25 WV, and then a resurgent Illinois team, while TCU plays top 20 bcs Utah and then New Mexico and Wyoming. So if both teams remain undefeated, that gap will widen in Cincy's favor. Cincy has a much harder road to finish undefeated though, and I dont know if they can.
(This post was last modified: 11-09-2009 02:05 PM by cuseroc.)
11-09-2009 02:01 PM
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Frog in the Kitchen Sink Offline
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RE: AP Poll, 3 Big East teams ranked
(11-09-2009 02:01 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  
(11-09-2009 12:54 PM)Frog in the Kitchen Sink Wrote:  
(11-08-2009 10:50 PM)Krocker Krapp Wrote:  The poll love for TCU is based on two factors in my opinion. One is that the voters feel bad because Utah got shafted last year and they are projecting their remorse upon this year's MWC standard bearer the same way referees come up with make-up calls after screwing up earlier in a game. The other thing is that there seems to be an agenda to vote the MWC up to BCS status by constantly ranking teams like BYU higher than they deserve based on one particular win while ignoring their embarrassing losses. I highly doubt these same people would actually support TCU in the BCS Title Game if push ever comes to shove though.
I think this is a bit too paranoid of an analysis.

Bottom line is that both TCU and Cincy have strong teams and ranking them is an eye of the beholder type of thing. There really isn't much difference in SOS, so it comes down to personal preference. Right or wrong, I do think that TCU's 44-6 average MOV the last 4 games has had a positive effect, and probably pushed them up on a few ballots. I don't think it is any more than that, though.

As far as the Frogs, one point I do want to make is that this is a different TCU team than our strong teams of the past decade. TCU has been plagued in the past with great defense and average offense, but this team is very stong in both (only team in top 10 of both total offense and total defense). Add in the ST play, and this is the most complete team we've had this decade. Not to take anything away from Cincy, though. Like TCU, that is a top 5 worthy team with a good argument to be the best in the country. Definitely wish we had a playoff.

There is not a huge difference now in the schedule rankings, but by the time that the season is over, there will be a larger difference in schedule rank. UC plays top 10 bcs Pitt, and another top 25 WV, and then a resurgent Illinois team, while TCU plays top 20 bcs Utah and then New Mexico and Wyoming. So if both teams remain undefeated, that gap will widen in Cincy's favor. Cincy has a much harder road to finish undefeated though, and I dont know if they can.
True but Cincy already has a lead in the computers, and that is likely to be pretty stable- they are pretty much at their ceiling there. They may create a little more separation, but not much. So it's going to come down to the voters. If the vote separation is only what it is now, I think the slight increase in the computers will push them ahead. But if TCU extends its lead in the polls, we may be able to withstand the Bearcats advantage in the computers, since the polls are 2/3 of the equation. In that regard, I would argue that style points will matter down the stretch in the polls. Put it this way, if Cincy doesn't allow UConn in the game, they'd probably be #4 this week. I think we'll see that play out the rest of the year in the polls if TCU and cincy both win out. Whoever looks more "impressive" will get slight boosts in the polls.

Unlikely any of this matters, since UT isn't going to lose.
11-09-2009 02:18 PM
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RE: AP Poll, 3 Big East teams ranked
(11-09-2009 02:18 PM)Frog in the Kitchen Sink Wrote:  
(11-09-2009 02:01 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  
(11-09-2009 12:54 PM)Frog in the Kitchen Sink Wrote:  
(11-08-2009 10:50 PM)Krocker Krapp Wrote:  The poll love for TCU is based on two factors in my opinion. One is that the voters feel bad because Utah got shafted last year and they are projecting their remorse upon this year's MWC standard bearer the same way referees come up with make-up calls after screwing up earlier in a game. The other thing is that there seems to be an agenda to vote the MWC up to BCS status by constantly ranking teams like BYU higher than they deserve based on one particular win while ignoring their embarrassing losses. I highly doubt these same people would actually support TCU in the BCS Title Game if push ever comes to shove though.
I think this is a bit too paranoid of an analysis.

Bottom line is that both TCU and Cincy have strong teams and ranking them is an eye of the beholder type of thing. There really isn't much difference in SOS, so it comes down to personal preference. Right or wrong, I do think that TCU's 44-6 average MOV the last 4 games has had a positive effect, and probably pushed them up on a few ballots. I don't think it is any more than that, though.

As far as the Frogs, one point I do want to make is that this is a different TCU team than our strong teams of the past decade. TCU has been plagued in the past with great defense and average offense, but this team is very stong in both (only team in top 10 of both total offense and total defense). Add in the ST play, and this is the most complete team we've had this decade. Not to take anything away from Cincy, though. Like TCU, that is a top 5 worthy team with a good argument to be the best in the country. Definitely wish we had a playoff.

There is not a huge difference now in the schedule rankings, but by the time that the season is over, there will be a larger difference in schedule rank. UC plays top 10 bcs Pitt, and another top 25 WV, and then a resurgent Illinois team, while TCU plays top 20 bcs Utah and then New Mexico and Wyoming. So if both teams remain undefeated, that gap will widen in Cincy's favor. Cincy has a much harder road to finish undefeated though, and I dont know if they can.
True but Cincy already has a lead in the computers, and that is likely to be pretty stable- they are pretty much at their ceiling there. They may create a little more separation, but not much. So it's going to come down to the voters. If the vote separation is only what it is now, I think the slight increase in the computers will push them ahead. But if TCU extends its lead in the polls, we may be able to withstand the Bearcats advantage in the computers, since the polls are 2/3 of the equation. In that regard, I would argue that style points will matter down the stretch in the polls. Put it this way, if Cincy doesn't allow UConn in the game, they'd probably be #4 this week. I think we'll see that play out the rest of the year in the polls if TCU and cincy both win out. Whoever looks more "impressive" will get slight boosts in the polls.

Unlikely any of this matters, since UT isn't going to lose.

There is a difference in how the voters view a team when they let a particular team back into a game. If it were Pitt that Cincy let back into the game last weekend, it would have been an impressive win. If Cincy manages to beat their remaining opponents by a few points, that will be much more impressive than TCU destroying the likes of Wyoming and New Mexico, who have maybe 3 wins between them. All of Cincy's remaining opponents are better than TCU's.
Pitt> Utah
Illinois>New Mexico
WV>Wyoming
(This post was last modified: 11-09-2009 02:59 PM by cuseroc.)
11-09-2009 02:51 PM
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Frog in the Kitchen Sink Offline
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RE: AP Poll, 3 Big East teams ranked
(11-09-2009 02:51 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  There is a difference in how the voters view a team when they let a particular team back into a game. If it were Pitt that Cincy let back into the game last weekend, it would have been an impressive win. If Cincy manages to beat their remaining opponents by a few points, that will be much more impressive than TCU destroying the likes of Wyoming and New Mexico, who have maybe 3 wins between them. All of Cincy's remaining opponents are better than TCU's.
Pitt> Utah
Illinois>New Mexico
WV>Wyoming

I guess my point is that SOS isn't the end all be all determinant in the race between Cincy and TCU, at least with the voters. Right or wrong, as we saw with Iowa before they lost, style points matter to the voters. If for example, 3 win Illinois is leading late and Cincy gets a fortunate bounce to win, the voters will probably take that into account (perhaps too much so). Similarly, if TCU goes to Wyoming and struggles to win in the altitude and snow (perhaps our most difficult game, IMO), we'll lose some votes. The voters are reacting to more data points than just W/L.
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RE: AP Poll, 3 Big East teams ranked
(11-09-2009 03:18 PM)Frog in the Kitchen Sink Wrote:  I guess my point is that SOS isn't the end all be all determinant in the race between Cincy and TCU, at least with the voters. Right or wrong, as we saw with Iowa before they lost, style points matter to the voters. If for example, 3 win Illinois is leading late and Cincy gets a fortunate bounce to win, the voters will probably take that into account (perhaps too much so). Similarly, if TCU goes to Wyoming and struggles to win in the altitude and snow (perhaps our most difficult game, IMO), we'll lose some votes. The voters are reacting to more data points than just W/L.

Yep, voters do like style points, no doubt about it. Cincy will get more votes if it wins its remaining games impressively than if it wins like Iowa was winning, or how it won against UConn.
11-09-2009 03:44 PM
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RE: AP Poll, 3 Big East teams ranked
(11-09-2009 03:44 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(11-09-2009 03:18 PM)Frog in the Kitchen Sink Wrote:  I guess my point is that SOS isn't the end all be all determinant in the race between Cincy and TCU, at least with the voters. Right or wrong, as we saw with Iowa before they lost, style points matter to the voters. If for example, 3 win Illinois is leading late and Cincy gets a fortunate bounce to win, the voters will probably take that into account (perhaps too much so). Similarly, if TCU goes to Wyoming and struggles to win in the altitude and snow (perhaps our most difficult game, IMO), we'll lose some votes. The voters are reacting to more data points than just W/L.

Yep, voters do like style points, no doubt about it. Cincy will get more votes if it wins its remaining games impressively than if it wins like Iowa was winning, or how it won against UConn.

That is true to a point. But if Cincy eeks out a win over a top 10 bcs Pitt, that is more impressive than eeking out a win over a 4-4 Uconn. "Style points do matter". But it also varies depending on who you get style points over. In other words, Cincy is going to get alot more respect by eeking out a win over top 10, 8-1 Pitt, than TCU will get by beating 0-9 New Mexico by 50.
11-09-2009 04:36 PM
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