Buc2002,

Indiana State is public university funded by the taxpayers of Indiana.
The Sycamores according to their own website fund 14 sports including D1-AA football. ISU is a member of the Missouri Valley Conference. The website by the way has a nice photo of the new outdoor football stadium for ISU.
In 1979, the Sycamores led by Larry Joe Bird played the Spartans from Michigan State led by Magic Johnson in Salt Lake City for the National Championship in Men's basketball.
I believe most college sports fans are aware of this game.

(04-18-2009 09:45 AM)buc1997 Wrote:  Buc2002,

Indiana State is public university funded by the taxpayers of Indiana.
The Sycamores according to their own website fund 14 sports including D1-AA football. ISU is a member of the Missouri Valley Conference. The website by the way has a nice photo of the new outdoor football stadium for ISU.
In 1979, the Sycamores led by Larry Joe Bird played the Spartans from Michigan State led by Magic Johnson in Salt Lake City for the National Championship in Men's basketball.
I believe most college sports fans are aware of this game.

Are you seriously bringing up Indiana State? Sure, playing in the national title game is a great achievement and one they should be proud of. But have they enjoyed sustained success with their decision. They have been to the Dance three times TOTAL in their history, with the last trip coming in 2001.

I don't think they are good example for any argument supporting football.
By the way, they went 0-12 last year in football.

This would be a team that makes the argument FOR ETSU's approach. They had something to build on with basketball -- chose to try and do both -- and are now struggling with both.

02,

If you're going to come up with these little contests you are going to have to do a better job of asking for exactly what you are looking for. You make simple requests and when they are completed for you under your very own guidelines you try to weasle out of them by saying that was not what you asked for.

(04-18-2009 03:09 PM)Goldfinger Wrote:  02,

If you're going to come up with these little contests you are going to have to do a better job of asking for exactly what you are looking for. You make simple requests and when they are completed for you under your very own guidelines you try to weasle out of them by saying that was not what you asked for.

Gold,

Just because people keep PROVING my point is not a reason to suggest I'm changing the argument. I didn't change anything. I've even agreed that Southern Illinois and Western Kentucky were actually pretty good suggestions and programs that I think would be a good model for ETSU.

However, we've had just two really good suggestions of PEER institutions and both of those programs are currently in conferences that would be considered "improvements" over any of the leagues often discussed on here -- Big South, OVC, Southern and A-Sun.

Now, Gold you have to admit that the Indiana State argument absolutely does not fit. I asked for a program that has been successful with Division I-AA football that has also made a run in the Big Dance and has a strong basketball program. To make this even easier, I was basically asking for program's that have been able to coexist with successful football and basketball programs. Indiana State does not fit in this AT ALL. They have not had a successful football program. Not even close.

I didn't start this one, someone just tried to offer an example. It just happened to be a really bad one. One that actually supports the current ETSU model. One that shows how football can be a drain on other viable programs.

Gold, you have to see this. And please this isn't about pride or not wanting to admit someone is right or wrong. You have to see that Indiana State does not support the pro-football argument.

No weasling out of anything here. Not at all.

(04-12-2009 11:44 AM)Buc2002 Wrote:  However, I will say again that -- outside of Chattanooga's Sweet 16 run in the mid-90s -- give me another example of a mid-major scholarship "football" school that has made a run in the NCAAs. SoCon or otherwise.

(04-18-2009 04:48 PM)Buc2002 Wrote:  Now, Gold you have to admit that the Indiana State argument absolutely does not fit. I asked for a program that has been successful with Division I-AA football that has also made a run in the Big Dance and has a strong basketball program.

I'm not even going to address that garbage b/c as stated it does not fit into your original requirements. You did not seek a "succesful division 1-AA football" team rather you requested one that "had scholarships"

2002, I like the Southern Illinois, WKU comparison. I think it is realistic. good call

(04-18-2009 06:22 PM)Goldfinger Wrote:  

(04-12-2009 11:44 AM)Buc2002 Wrote:  However, I will say again that -- outside of Chattanooga's Sweet 16 run in the mid-90s -- give me another example of a mid-major scholarship "football" school that has made a run in the NCAAs. SoCon or otherwise.

(04-18-2009 04:48 PM)Buc2002 Wrote:  Now, Gold you have to admit that the Indiana State argument absolutely does not fit. I asked for a program that has been successful with Division I-AA football that has also made a run in the Big Dance and has a strong basketball program.

I'm not even going to address that garbage b/c as stated it does not fit into your original requirements. You did not seek a "succesful division 1-AA football" team rather you requested one that "had scholarships"

Whatever, Gold. You are still missing the point. I'm just saying that it takes funding to make both work, and even when attempting to fund both being successful at both is hard to do. In fact it is rare.

I will admit that my original request did not ask for "successful," however my point is still legitimate. We're counting schools on basically one or two hands that have done it. It just isn't easy to do and it is a rareity.

(04-18-2009 08:10 PM)Buc2002 Wrote:  Whatever, Gold. You are still missing the point. I'm just saying that it takes funding to make both work, and even when attempting to fund both being successful at both is hard to do. In fact it is rare.

I will admit that my original request did not ask for "successful," however my point is still legitimate. We're counting schools on basically one or two hands that have done it. It just isn't easy to do and it is a rareity.

Still, there's one thing that's relatively certain. ETSU won't have two successful programs. However, if success is defined as being the top dog in a horrible conference, then the bucs have achieved success.

Hmmm. I'm thinking UT should consider a move to Conference USA. It's in the same division. I think they'd be a huge success.

(04-18-2009 08:22 PM)kevster Wrote:  

(04-18-2009 08:10 PM)Buc2002 Wrote:  Whatever, Gold. You are still missing the point. I'm just saying that it takes funding to make both work, and even when attempting to fund both being successful at both is hard to do. In fact it is rare.

I will admit that my original request did not ask for "successful," however my point is still legitimate. We're counting schools on basically one or two hands that have done it. It just isn't easy to do and it is a rareity.

Still, there's one thing that's relatively certain. ETSU won't have two successful programs. However, if success is defined as being the top dog in a horrible conference, then the bucs have achieved success.

Hmmm. I'm thinking UT should consider a move to Conference USA. It's in the same division. I think they'd be a huge success.

Great. Good to see Kev piling on again. It's the Kevster and Gold show, everyone. Enjoy.

02,

I fail to see why I should be penalized for fitting your requirements and then said requirements suddenly aren't good enough because in actuality you meant something other than what you said. I don't see how that is my fault.

If you wish to make your secondary point..then that's fine...but don't alter your original challenge to prove that of which you wish to prove. If said challenge didn't accomplish your goal....try try again.

But let's not haggle. We both want the best for ETSU (at least basketball wise I think)....Just answer me this...so I know exactly where you are coming from. If I could wave an imaginary wand over this wretched earth and put the Bucs in the Southern Conference instead of the A-sun (without football). Would you want me to do it?

As much as I enjoyed the SoCon, I have trouble with going back to the ex-girlfriend after she asked us to leave. There were many reasons the breakup happened, certainly, but I don't know that a return is what everyone on here has discussed.

What I've read -- at least here -- is a hope to really move up to something similar to the CAA, the Missouri Valley or the Atlantic 10 type conference. I've even heard CUSA. But I don't know that this answers your question, Gold.

I think we both do agree on wanting basketball to succeed at ETSU. And I think we'd also both agree that if and when football returns to campus, we want to fund a team with a chance to be competitive. Not have a team that is simply trying to hang on and survive, which is what we had for way too long.

You answered my question, alright.

You know I think I get it...for the first time I think I get it.


When they dropped football they actually thought the SoCon was going to let them get away with it. Nevermind that VMI had just been kicked out for very same offense. They actually believed that they, being ETSU, could get away with it. I am further concluding that it cut deep to the heart when the news came down the wire informing them they were out.

As an observer I never for once doubted what the SoCon would have to say about it.

I gotta tell you...I don't see how the SoCon can be blamed for holding firm to their guidelines. And yet ETSU should be celebrated for dropping football. This is the twilight zone.

(04-18-2009 11:08 PM)Goldfinger Wrote:  You know I think I get it...for the first time I think I get it.


When they dropped football they actually thought the SoCon was going to let them get away with it. Nevermind that VMI had just been kicked out for very same offense. They actually believed that they, being ETSU, could get away with it. I am further concluding that it cut deep to the heart when the news came down the wire informing them they were out.

As an observer I never for once doubted what the SoCon would have to say about it.

I gotta tell you...I don't see how the SoCon can be blamed for holding firm to their guidelines. And yet ETSU should be celebrated for dropping football. This is the twilight zone.

I do think there was a double standard in the since that CofC and UNCG are in the league, not to mention Davidson. Sure, there was some precedence with VMI. But I think it's important to note that an ETSU with football that could not solely focus on basketball and other sports scared many in the league.

I don't think anyone celebrates the football decision. But that's just my opinion. I don't think in a perfect world you ever want to drop a sport. However, you mention the SoCon's guidelines. Well, their own guidelines seem to depend on the institution and the situation.

I knew it!

as i suspected their is no vision to take us to higher ground but rather resentment for those who condemned us on a grand exodus

(04-19-2009 10:14 AM)Goldfinger Wrote:  as i suspected their is no vision to take us to higher ground but rather resentment for those who condemned us on a grand exodus

I think your missing my point again. There's not really resentment, just some confusion on the double-standard by the SoCon.

I do think there's a vision for taking the program to a higher level some day. I don't think there's a program in the country that doesn't hope to consistently improve.

VMI still has football..and they were not kicked out of the Socon...
They quit the Socon because they wanted to be in the Big South!

you ant compare this to being dumped by a girlfriend and then claim no resentment

(04-19-2009 01:04 PM)Goldfinger Wrote:  you ant compare this to being dumped by a girlfriend and then claim no resentment

I'm just saying that's what it feels like if we go back with hat in hand. Again, this is a thread that is like "Groundhog Day" -- different day, same back and forth. Time to move on.

Have a good week, Gold. It was fun as usual.