(02-22-2009 03:51 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(02-22-2009 11:43 AM)Zipfanatik Wrote:  

(02-20-2009 08:18 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(02-20-2009 03:44 PM)Zipfanatik Wrote:  

(02-19-2009 11:05 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  I've said it before and I'll say it again - What a woman does with her body is up to her, her family, her doctor and her spititual leader.

Here's how reproduction works: A woman conceives, then a new human forms inside her womb, with its own body. And that's the way reproduction works.

Thanks for the lesson. What's your point?

To educate and dispel ignorance, where possible.

So anyone not adhering to your point of view is uneducated and ignorant? Better take a look in the mirror Bub.

I think the reproductive process is pretty well documented scientific fact, not any one person's point of view.

(02-22-2009 03:26 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(02-22-2009 03:07 PM)Zipfanatik Wrote:  

(02-21-2009 06:08 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  I challenge any pro-lifer here to explain to me, using science (in particular chemistry and biology) how a fertilized egg is even remotely similar to a baby ... or even a fetus at later stages.

Note I said using science. Keep your book allegedly written about the life of a guy born of a virgin impregnated by God .... to yourself.

They all contain a complete set of (biochemical) DNA and are in the process of human development. I would challenge anyone to explain to me why I shouldn't be allowed to terminate my 2 year old toddler if I so choose...why should it be protected under the law if it's not fully developed yet?

Contains DNA? So you're guilty of murder every time you kill a skin cell which has DNA in it? So I should expect you to be guilty for life by the time you're doing reading this?

Are you really incapable of understanding the difference between the brain at 4 to 5 weeks in the embryonic stage vs the fetal stage vs a born baby? Is that really too much of an observational/scientific leap for you to take? Do I need illustrated pictures?

POTENTIAL to exist IS NOT the same as EXISTANCE.

Skins cells are not in the process of developing into a new human ... zygotes/embryos/fetuses are. Do you really believe that one minute an embryo's brain is too undeveloped to think and then the next minute it's thinking and therefore 'exists'? How would we detect that moment so the law could begin to protect the new human?

(02-22-2009 05:36 PM)Zipfanatik Wrote:  

(02-22-2009 03:51 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(02-22-2009 11:43 AM)Zipfanatik Wrote:  

(02-20-2009 08:18 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(02-20-2009 03:44 PM)Zipfanatik Wrote:  

(02-19-2009 11:05 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  I've said it before and I'll say it again - What a woman does with her body is up to her, her family, her doctor and her spititual leader.

Here's how reproduction works: A woman conceives, then a new human forms inside her womb, with its own body. And that's the way reproduction works.

Thanks for the lesson. What's your point?

To educate and dispel ignorance, where possible.

So anyone not adhering to your point of view is uneducated and ignorant? Better take a look in the mirror Bub.

I think the reproductive process is pretty well documented scientific fact, not any one person's point of view.

And, to a degree, is evolution. If abortion is wrong for religious reasons then it is the job of God, not government, to dole out punishment.

If you had a crystal ball and had a chance to perform an abortion on Hitler, would you do it?

(02-22-2009 06:04 PM)Zipfanatik Wrote:  Skins cells are not in the process of developing into a new human ... zygotes/embryos/fetuses are. Do you really believe that one minute an embryo's brain is too undeveloped to think and then the next minute it's thinking and therefore 'exists'? How would we detect that moment so the law could begin to protect the new human?

They are biologically and chemically identical to a newly fertilized embryo.

And no, we cannot put a specific time when the transition from no brain to thinking existance is. That's why, conservatively, I put the deadline at 4-5 weeks when the brain really begins to form (separate into distinct areas). Thinking likely does not happen for many more weeks .... but as it turns out we're not exactly able to hook an EKG up to an embryo the size of a pencil point and constantly run MRI/XRay tests to find out. So I err on the side of life.

(02-22-2009 08:37 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(02-22-2009 05:36 PM)Zipfanatik Wrote:  

(02-22-2009 03:51 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(02-22-2009 11:43 AM)Zipfanatik Wrote:  

(02-20-2009 08:18 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(02-20-2009 03:44 PM)Zipfanatik Wrote:  

(02-19-2009 11:05 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  I've said it before and I'll say it again - What a woman does with her body is up to her, her family, her doctor and her spititual leader.

Here's how reproduction works: A woman conceives, then a new human forms inside her womb, with its own body. And that's the way reproduction works.

Thanks for the lesson. What's your point?

To educate and dispel ignorance, where possible.

So anyone not adhering to your point of view is uneducated and ignorant? Better take a look in the mirror Bub.

I think the reproductive process is pretty well documented scientific fact, not any one person's point of view.

And, to a degree, is evolution. If abortion is wrong for religious reasons then it is the job of God, not government, to dole out punishment.

If you had a crystal ball and had a chance to perform an abortion on Hitler, would you do it?

If what you are saying is what I think you are saying(sometimes it is difficult to understand you), I agree with you( ).

As you know I hate Jews so I would not abort Hitler, I would clone him. Just kidding guys. I thought I would just continue playing along with your "anti-semetic" bs.

(02-22-2009 08:37 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(02-22-2009 05:36 PM)Zipfanatik Wrote:  

(02-22-2009 03:51 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(02-22-2009 11:43 AM)Zipfanatik Wrote:  

(02-20-2009 08:18 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(02-20-2009 03:44 PM)Zipfanatik Wrote:  

(02-19-2009 11:05 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  I've said it before and I'll say it again - What a woman does with her body is up to her, her family, her doctor and her spititual leader.

Here's how reproduction works: A woman conceives, then a new human forms inside her womb, with its own body. And that's the way reproduction works.

Thanks for the lesson. What's your point?

To educate and dispel ignorance, where possible.

So anyone not adhering to your point of view is uneducated and ignorant? Better take a look in the mirror Bub.

I think the reproductive process is pretty well documented scientific fact, not any one person's point of view.

And, to a degree, is evolution. If abortion is wrong for religious reasons then it is the job of God, not government, to dole out punishment.

If you had a crystal ball and had a chance to perform an abortion on Hitler, would you do it?

It is the government's job to protect life for human rights reasons, not religious reasons. When should the law protect a human and why?

Evolution and capital punishment are not relevant to the discussion.

(02-23-2009 06:04 AM)Zipfanatik Wrote:  When should the law protect a human and why?

For me it's conception, I believe the same for you Zip. For gts it's brain development, and for Obama, it's at the point a child would die left on it's own with no care after birth. That's conservativly for Obama. He may be fine up to 110 years of age.

(02-20-2009 03:44 PM)Zipfanatik Wrote:  

(02-19-2009 11:05 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  I've said it before and I'll say it again - What a woman does with her body is up to her, her family, her doctor and her spititual leader.

Here's how reproduction works: A woman conceives, then a new human forms inside her womb, with its own body. And that's the way reproduction works.

(02-21-2009 06:08 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  I challenge any pro-lifer here to explain to me, using science (in particular chemistry and biology) how a fertilized egg is even remotely similar to a baby ... or even a fetus at later stages.

It's human...based on genetics and the fact that it's a widely observed feature in biology that species reproduce the same species.

It's alive...based on a any accepted defintion of life.

Thus, it is human life. QED.

(02-22-2009 11:54 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(02-22-2009 06:04 PM)Zipfanatik Wrote:  Skins cells are not in the process of developing into a new human ... zygotes/embryos/fetuses are. Do you really believe that one minute an embryo's brain is too undeveloped to think and then the next minute it's thinking and therefore 'exists'? How would we detect that moment so the law could begin to protect the new human?

They are biologically and chemically identical to a newly fertilized embryo.

Nope, b/c they are not a unique human being. Take a few skin cells and you haven't killed the entire organism.

BTW, I do agree w/ you to a great extent. There are some bioethicists who argue the same thing about "potential" human beings...and it's a dangerous tack IMO.

I also see your point about the brain development.

If you're offering a compromise that would make abortion illegal after the 6th week...I'd take that right now.

(02-23-2009 02:50 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  If you're offering a compromise that would make abortion illegal after the 6th week...I'd take that right now.

That's my exact stance on the issue.

I would accept that compromise as well, with one additional requirement: that the couple must go to a counseling session where they are advised on how to try to prevent unwanted pregnancies in the future out of respect for human life.

I think that's stupid. This is where a GOOD sexual education in high school is suppose to take effect. If these things have to be tought to you as an adult -- the educational system has failed you or you failed it.

(02-23-2009 04:54 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  I think that's stupid. This is where a GOOD sexual education in high school is suppose to take effect. If these things have to be tought to you as an adult -- the educational system has failed you or you failed it.

Yes that's true. So what's new?

They have traffic school for people who should know how to drive from HS Drivers Ed...This is somehow less serious?

(02-23-2009 04:51 PM)Zipfanatik Wrote:  I would accept that compromise as well, with one additional requirement: that the couple must go to a counseling session where they are advised on how to try to prevent unwanted pregnancies in the future out of respect for human life.

Are you willing to take this message to inner city blacks who have out of wedlock birth rates over 70%? Most unwanted pregnancies (remember I said most) are from uncaring or uneducated people. Do you think they'll learn anything from counseling?