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You are Commish - Fix the Notre Dame situation
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UofL07 Offline
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You are Commish - Fix the Notre Dame situation
Background

The Big East dodged a major bullet this year after ND finished 6-6 and was unable to take the Sun Bowl. Had that event happened, a 7-5 Notre Dame team would have bumped out a 9-3 Pitt team who beat them at Notre Dame. Add in the fact that Notre Dame was 0-2 against the Big East this season and you would have had a major uproar in the media and among Big East fans. Unfortunately, the conference is not going to dodge this mess every time it comes up and at some point, Notre Dame will begin taking Big East bowls games. After the last mess, it is clear that the conference must find some way of fixing the Notre Dame/bowl game issue.

In addition, there is also the issue of Notre Dame “offering” to schedule Big East teams. The terms of this agreement are summarized below:

http://www.sptimes.com/2008/01/24/Sports...yday.shtml

Notre Dame has made a commitment to play three Big East teams each year starting in 2011 and had extended an open invitation to all eight conference programs to play in South Bend

Part of the problem with this deal is that Notre Dame refuses to schedule Big East teams (i.e. member of its own conference) as equals. UConn signed a six game series with none of the games at home. Rutgers refused a similar deal with Notre Dame because Notre Dame refused to play at Rutger's stadium. In addition to the agreements being on Notre Dame's terms, the problem also arises that some teams (USF, Louisville, Cincy) are unable to get a fair shake from Notre Dame in terms of schedule. For these programs. one-and-dones at Notre Dame stadium are the only offer Notre Dame is willing to give. As a result, the Big East-Notre Dame agreement represents little more than the Big East helping Notre Dame maintain its east coast exposure with little in return.

What I'd do as commish

If I was the commish of the conference, I would use a three stage approach to deal with the Notre Dame issue. Because the basketball schools will fight like hell if an “all-in or all-out” ultimatum is given to the Domers and because splitting is not preferable at this time (see http://ncaabbs.com/showthread.php?tid=323512), this proposal is the best solution to the current problem in my opinion.

Stage 1

Unlike 2003, Big East football is on much sturdier footing. Attendance for the most of the Big East bowl games is improving each year. The perception of Big East football in the national media is light years ahead of where it was 5 years ago. In addition, the Big East is winning BCS games and has secured its position in the BCS. In summary, the conference is in a much better position now than it was five years ago and as a result, it should use this new found strength to pressure Notre Dame.

First, Notre Dame would be required to schedule three ‘home-and-homes’ per year to be included in any post season Big East deals. The core requirements of this agreement would be as follows:

- Notre Dame would schedule three Big East teams per season. Notre Dame would be required to schedule these teams to a “home and home” agreement. Schools would be permitted to sign “home-home-neutral” agreements with Notre Dame if they so chose; however, the neutral site game would not be eligible to count towards the three “home-and-home” game requirement. “One-and-dones” agreements would also not satisfy this requirement.

- Notre Dame would be required to rotate scheduling and would not be allowed to reschedule a team until all Big East teams have been played home-and-home games with the Domers. This prevents the Irish from refusing to fairly schedule teams like Cincy, Louisville, USF, etc.

Second, the “within one” clause would be applied to all Big East bowl contracts. Notre Dame would be eligible for all Big East bowl games but would be required to be within one win of the Big East team they were replacing.

Failure to agree to these requirements would result in Notre Dame be removed from all Big East bowl agreements. If the Domers chose this path, they will find out the hard way how difficult it is in today's world to regularly gain minor bowl deals without having a conference affiliation. Unless you want to become a Navy and make regular appearances in the Poinsettia bowl, Notre Dame is losing its bargaining chip each year with the Big East football schools.


Stage 2

If the Big East continues to improve and reliance on Notre Dame for bowl contracts weakens further, I would implement stage two of my plan.

First, Notre Dame would be required to schedule four ‘home-and-homes’ per year to be included in any post season Big East deals. The core requirements of this agreement would be as follows:

- Notre Dame would schedule four Big East teams per season. Notre Dame would be required to schedule these teams to a “home and home” agreement. Schools would be permitted to sign “home-home-neutral” agreements with Notre Dame if they so chose; however, the neutral site game would not be eligible to count towards the three “home-and-home” game requirement. “One-and-dones” agreements would also not satisfy this requirement.

- Notre Dame would be required to rotate scheduling and would not be allowed to reschedule a team until all Big East teams have been played home-and-home games with the Domers. This prevents the Irish from refusing to fairly schedule teams like Cincy, Louisville, USF, etc.

Second, the “within one” clause would be applied to all Big East bowl contracts. Notre Dame would be eligible for all Big East bowl games but would be required to be within one win of the Big East team they were replacing.

Third, Notre Dame would be required to share a portion of its independent football revenue with the Big East conference. A 60/40 Notre/Big East split would be the starting point for revenue sharing.

Failure to agree to these requirements would result in Notre Dame be removed from all Big East bowl agreements and receiving a post-season ban on Big East tournaments. This would put the Domers in a tough position. They could accept the deal and retain access to bowl games, the Big East tournament, etc. They could also choose to reject the deal and lose bowl tie-ins, big east tournament position, etc. Ultimately, the Domers would have to decide to stay in the Big East but miss out on all post-season activities or leave the conference and move all others sports to a lower tier conference.


Stage 3

Stage three would basically be an increasing version of Stage 2. So long as the Big East continues to excel on the field and decides to stick together for basketball, I would applied increase pressure on Notre Dame to play more big East teams and share more of its NBC contract with the Big East. Eventually, Notre Dame may choose to leave, the conference may split apart, or the Domer may eventually join the Big East for football.
12-16-2008 08:09 PM
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KNIGHTTIME Offline
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Post: #2
RE: You are Commish - Fix the Notre Dame situation
The reality is Norte Dame helped land most of these bowls just for the possibility of getting them.
12-16-2008 08:30 PM
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army56mike Offline
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Post: #3
RE: You are Commish - Fix the Notre Dame situation
The best way to fix the Notre Shame situation is ask them to leave and invite a competitive team like Utah St. or someone.
12-16-2008 08:36 PM
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Yosemite Panther Offline
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Post: #4
RE: You are Commish - Fix the Notre Dame situation
UofL07 Wrote:Part of the problem with this deal is that Notre Dame refuses to schedule Big East teams (i.e. member of its own conference) as equals.

Just a minor correction here, Pitt and Notre Dame have played 64 times in their history with 7 more scheduled and Notre Dame does sign H-and-H with Pitt. The most current 8-game series has 4 games at South Bend and 4 games in Pittsburgh. Not exactly sure, but Pitt is in the Top 5 I believe as a most common ND opponent.

All that being said, I'm still against the Irish for the most part as to what they take from the BE compared to what they give.
12-16-2008 08:45 PM
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UofL07 Offline
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Post: #5
RE: You are Commish - Fix the Notre Dame situation
Yosemite Panther Wrote:Just a minor correction here, Pitt and Notre Dame have played 64 times in their history with 7 more scheduled and Notre Dame does sign H-and-H with Pitt. The most current 8-game series has 4 games at South Bend and 4 games in Pittsburgh. Not exactly sure, but Pitt is in the Top 5 I believe as a most common ND opponent.

All that being said, I'm still against the Irish for the most part as to what they take from the BE compared to what they give.

I was speaking about scheduling conference teams on the whole. Pitt got a fair shake from Notre Dame, but IMO Rutgers, Louisville, UConn, Cincinnati, USF have not.
12-16-2008 08:59 PM
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hawghiggs Offline
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Post: #6
RE: You are Commish - Fix the Notre Dame situation
First off I hate Notre Dame and hope they don't win another game in anything ever again.

I would tell notre dame that they need to move on because the big east is going in a new direction. I'd add Memphis as a full member,I'd add ECU as either a football member only or a full member. I'd also look at central florida and temple. The big east needs to quit being used by notre dame.
(This post was last modified: 12-16-2008 09:26 PM by hawghiggs.)
12-16-2008 09:25 PM
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Yosemite Panther Offline
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Post: #7
RE: You are Commish - Fix the Notre Dame situation
UofL07 Wrote:I was speaking about scheduling conference teams on the whole. Pitt got a fair shake from Notre Dame, but IMO Rutgers, Louisville, UConn, Cincinnati, USF have not.

I knew what you meant, but I didn't seem any mention of the equal Pitt-Irish situation, so I just brought it up. The Panthers are almost certainly treated differently from the other BE teams because of their long history with ND.

But I agree that as a part of the Big East Conference, the Irish should be mandated to treat all other BE football teams the way they treat Pitt--sign H-and-H. As part of their 3 BE games per year, they should round-robin all the other 7 BE teams in H-and-H contracts. If that screws up their precious "7H-4R-1 neutral" schedule, tough.

If they don't want to do that--then bye-bye, take all your other teams OUT of the BE. We'll get whatever bowls we can on our own, after all, how much worse can our bowl situation be than it is now? The Gator/Sun "left-over scraps" is probably all we'd lose.
12-16-2008 09:50 PM
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bitcruncher Offline
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Post: #8
RE: You are Commish - Fix the Notre Dame situation
Y'all know my sentiments regarding Notre Dame.

As it stands now, the best thing we can do is every time anyone in conference plays them in football - beat them...
12-16-2008 09:59 PM
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templefootballfan Offline
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Post: #9
RE: You are Commish - Fix the Notre Dame situation
BE has been going to the Gator bowl since '94.
ND has taken Gator bowl twice in that span.
Now to get Gator bowl & you need ND,
I can live with 2 out of 15.
With other bowl arangements, ND took 1 bowl.
1 out 20 [if not more] ain't bad either.
now I agree, 1 out of 4 for each BE bowl is liveable
& with in 1 record wise is fine.
just sign 7 th bowl.
beating ND in your 3 shots take care of promblem also
BTW, the 3 yrs ND took BE bowl, NO BE eligable school sat at home
(This post was last modified: 12-16-2008 10:19 PM by templefootballfan.)
12-16-2008 10:03 PM
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ucatky2287 Offline
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Post: #10
RE: You are Commish - Fix the Notre Dame situation
I like your plan but one thing that would help fix the BE situation with ND would be if the BCS would require all BCS teams to play at least 2 BCS schools home and away each year.
No BCS school should be aloud to have 8 home games like Ohio State and ND try to do. Requireing ND to play other BCS schools away is critical to a balanced schedule for college football. ND would not want to play a SEC or Big 12 team on the road so they would favor BE schools over other conferences.
12-16-2008 10:09 PM
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KnightLight Offline
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Post: #11
RE: You are Commish - Fix the Notre Dame situation
Get HOTTER chicks to enroll in your school.

done.
12-16-2008 11:12 PM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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RE: You are Commish - Fix the Notre Dame situation
UofL07 Wrote:Background

The Big East dodged a major bullet this year after ND finished 6-6 and was unable to take the Sun Bowl. Had that event happened, a 7-5 Notre Dame team would have bumped out a 9-3 Pitt team who beat them at Notre Dame. Add in the fact that Notre Dame was 0-2 against the Big East this season and you would have had a major uproar in the media and among Big East fans. Unfortunately, the conference is not going to dodge this mess every time it comes up and at some point, Notre Dame will begin taking Big East bowls games. After the last mess, it is clear that the conference must find some way of fixing the Notre Dame/bowl game issue.

In addition, there is also the issue of Notre Dame “offering” to schedule Big East teams. The terms of this agreement are summarized below:

http://www.sptimes.com/2008/01/24/Sports...yday.shtml

Notre Dame has made a commitment to play three Big East teams each year starting in 2011 and had extended an open invitation to all eight conference programs to play in South Bend

Part of the problem with this deal is that Notre Dame refuses to schedule Big East teams (i.e. member of its own conference) as equals. UConn signed a six game series with none of the games at home. Rutgers refused a similar deal with Notre Dame because Notre Dame refused to play at Rutger's stadium. In addition to the agreements being on Notre Dame's terms, the problem also arises that some teams (USF, Louisville, Cincy) are unable to get a fair shake from Notre Dame in terms of schedule. For these programs. one-and-dones at Notre Dame stadium are the only offer Notre Dame is willing to give. As a result, the Big East-Notre Dame agreement represents little more than the Big East helping Notre Dame maintain its east coast exposure with little in return.

What I'd do as commish

If I was the commish of the conference, I would use a three stage approach to deal with the Notre Dame issue. Because the basketball schools will fight like hell if an “all-in or all-out” ultimatum is given to the Domers and because splitting is not preferable at this time (see http://ncaabbs.com/showthread.php?tid=323512), this proposal is the best solution to the current problem in my opinion.

Stage 1

Unlike 2003, Big East football is on much sturdier footing. Attendance for the most of the Big East bowl games is improving each year. The perception of Big East football in the national media is light years ahead of where it was 5 years ago. In addition, the Big East is winning BCS games and has secured its position in the BCS. In summary, the conference is in a much better position now than it was five years ago and as a result, it should use this new found strength to pressure Notre Dame.

First, Notre Dame would be required to schedule three ‘home-and-homes’ per year to be included in any post season Big East deals. The core requirements of this agreement would be as follows:

- Notre Dame would schedule three Big East teams per season. Notre Dame would be required to schedule these teams to a “home and home” agreement. Schools would be permitted to sign “home-home-neutral” agreements with Notre Dame if they so chose; however, the neutral site game would not be eligible to count towards the three “home-and-home” game requirement. “One-and-dones” agreements would also not satisfy this requirement.

- Notre Dame would be required to rotate scheduling and would not be allowed to reschedule a team until all Big East teams have been played home-and-home games with the Domers. This prevents the Irish from refusing to fairly schedule teams like Cincy, Louisville, USF, etc.

Second, the “within one” clause would be applied to all Big East bowl contracts. Notre Dame would be eligible for all Big East bowl games but would be required to be within one win of the Big East team they were replacing.

Failure to agree to these requirements would result in Notre Dame be removed from all Big East bowl agreements. If the Domers chose this path, they will find out the hard way how difficult it is in today's world to regularly gain minor bowl deals without having a conference affiliation. Unless you want to become a Navy and make regular appearances in the Poinsettia bowl, Notre Dame is losing its bargaining chip each year with the Big East football schools.


Stage 2

If the Big East continues to improve and reliance on Notre Dame for bowl contracts weakens further, I would implement stage two of my plan.

First, Notre Dame would be required to schedule four ‘home-and-homes’ per year to be included in any post season Big East deals. The core requirements of this agreement would be as follows:

- Notre Dame would schedule four Big East teams per season. Notre Dame would be required to schedule these teams to a “home and home” agreement. Schools would be permitted to sign “home-home-neutral” agreements with Notre Dame if they so chose; however, the neutral site game would not be eligible to count towards the three “home-and-home” game requirement. “One-and-dones” agreements would also not satisfy this requirement.

- Notre Dame would be required to rotate scheduling and would not be allowed to reschedule a team until all Big East teams have been played home-and-home games with the Domers. This prevents the Irish from refusing to fairly schedule teams like Cincy, Louisville, USF, etc.

Second, the “within one” clause would be applied to all Big East bowl contracts. Notre Dame would be eligible for all Big East bowl games but would be required to be within one win of the Big East team they were replacing.

Third, Notre Dame would be required to share a portion of its independent football revenue with the Big East conference. A 60/40 Notre/Big East split would be the starting point for revenue sharing.

Failure to agree to these requirements would result in Notre Dame be removed from all Big East bowl agreements and receiving a post-season ban on Big East tournaments. This would put the Domers in a tough position. They could accept the deal and retain access to bowl games, the Big East tournament, etc. They could also choose to reject the deal and lose bowl tie-ins, big east tournament position, etc. Ultimately, the Domers would have to decide to stay in the Big East but miss out on all post-season activities or leave the conference and move all others sports to a lower tier conference.


Stage 3

Stage three would basically be an increasing version of Stage 2. So long as the Big East continues to excel on the field and decides to stick together for basketball, I would applied increase pressure on Notre Dame to play more big East teams and share more of its NBC contract with the Big East. Eventually, Notre Dame may choose to leave, the conference may split apart, or the Domer may eventually join the Big East for football.

This is well thought-out and it's good to see an approach outside of the rabid calls of "let's kick ND out" (because that ain't happening). The issue from my perspective, though, is that I'm not sure the underlying assumption for any of this to work - that the Big East is in a "sturdier" position to negotiate with the bowls - is necessarily true where you could implement your "Stage 1" as of today. I believe that the Big East's position as a BCS conference is secure now, which is extremely important and wasn't the case in 2003. However, I'm not sure that the Big East is substantially in a stronger position in terms of non-BCS bowl tie-ins. If the Big East is in a better bargaining position, then why did the Sun Bowl hope for the opportunity to take a 6-6 ND team instead of a Pitt team that had 3 more wins, including one head-to-head win over the Irish? Why has the Gator Bowl essentially taken the same approach for several years?

I think that the Big East has proven a lot on the field since 2003. However, the Gator Bowl and Sun Bowl obviously still have a less-than-enthusiastic perception of the Big East - they have been both pretty open about wanting ND or any Big 12 team over a Big East team. The natural and legitimate reaction of many Big East fans has been to tell those bowls to go f**k themselves, but the problem is that there isn't any evidence that there are other high paying bowls out there that would think any differently. What other bowl out there that has payouts equivalent to the Gator and Sun would feasibly sever ties with another BCS conference and then sign up the Big East without the exact same type of ND tie-in? Frankly, I don't see another high payout bowl that has shown that it would covet the Big East if ND isn't included.

Thus, the evidence right now is that the Big East isn't at the point where you could exercise your "Stage 1". The Big East could eventually get there in a few years where they really would have some leverage over ND with respect to bowl tie-ins, but realistically as of today, it's the other way around where ND has a lot more clout with bowl committees. Plus, I think that ND's perception of this whole set-up is that it has actually been doing the Big East a huge favor by committing to 3 games with BE teams each year (regardless of whether any of those games are away from ND-friendly venues) since they certainly have no issue in terms of finding other teams across the country willing to play them anywhere at any price (particularly when it involves guaranteed national television coverage). While this might be an arrogant position, there's an element of truth to it in the sense that ND can schedule pretty much anyone that they want to during the regular season and, honestly, I think that there are a lot of bowls that would be more than willing to deal with ND directly without even having the Big East involved at all.

I'm not trying to be Debbie Downer here, but I just think that the Big East's leverage with respect to the non-BCS bowls (even though its BCS spot is secure) isn't at the point where the conference can dictate any type of terms to ND as of today. That's not to say it won't happen in a few years.
12-16-2008 11:34 PM
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usffan Offline
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Post: #13
RE: You are Commish - Fix the Notre Dame situation
The big problem you have is that half of the conference, namely the non-football schools, don't see a "Notre Dame situation." So, if you're the commissioner of the conference, you have just as much duty to the non-football schools as you do the football schools. How can you justify correcting a "situation" that half of your constituents don't think is a problem?

With that said, let's face it. The bulk of our sports are non-revenue, and the absence or presence of Notre Dame would have a negligible impact. So to simplify things, we're only concerned with men's basketball and football. The Big East is (arguably) the best conference in all of college basketball, so Notre Dame benefits greatly from being a full member here. In return for access to the conference tournament, the automatic bid to the NCAA tournament, a full share of the NCAA tournament revenues and scheduled games against national calibur teams, what does Notre Dame give back to the conference, and should it be above and beyond what any other non-football school gives?

Notre Dame's football program brings considerable name recognition and historical success. They are media darlings. Officially, they are not affiliated with the Big East in football, but they are part of the Big East's bowl package. They agreed to this in part to help with the Big East's shaky footing in securing bowl bids. They've also agreed to schedule Big East football teams, ostensibly to help with the fact that we have to schedule five non-conference games every season.

Now, as a fan of a football school, there are times that I get pissed off at what I perceive to be all of the advantages that go to Notre Dame. But, in fairness, most of those advantages would go to Notre Dame independent of their membership in the Big East. They would still have their NBC contract, they would still get BCS access if they were sufficiently ranked, and they would still be the darlings of the bowls because of their fan base. So why is it that we want them out if they're not in for football? We don't require Georgetown and Villanova to participate in football. Oh, but you say, they were original members in the Big East. Well, we don't require Marquette or DePaul to do anything to help out the football programs.

So, as much as it pains me to say this, if I were the commissioner, I would talk to the football schools and say "do you want me to get the best bowls using Notre Dame as a partner or not? If you want them as a partner, you need to accept that they will take a bid from another Big East member sometimes. If not, you need to accept that we may not get access to bowls that will make you happy." And then I would follow up on it.

USFFan
12-17-2008 01:54 AM
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UofL07 Offline
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Post: #14
RE: You are Commish - Fix the Notre Dame situation
usffan Wrote:We don't require Georgetown and Villanova to participate in football. Oh, but you say, they were original members in the Big East. Well, we don't require Marquette or DePaul to do anything to help out the football programs.

Notre Dame has a FBS team, the others do not. Notre Dame is in a position to help the Big East in football, the others are not. That is the big distinction between Notre Dame and G'Town/Nova/Marquette/DePaul.
12-17-2008 02:04 AM
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CardFANATIC Offline
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Post: #15
RE: You are Commish - Fix the Notre Dame situation
I think offering ND a deal where they can still keep their tv contract and giving them a very disproportionate share of the BCS money when they make the game would be a good deal for both sides. The BE would benefit in tv deals because remember all the conference away games for ND would be able to be marketed in the BE tv deal. Let them keep their deals they have in place and they may be more receptive.
12-17-2008 02:05 AM
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gosports1 Offline
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Post: #16
RE: You are Commish - Fix the Notre Dame situation
Love them or hate them ND is the BE's wetdream. Brand name, rapid fanbase, national recognition and great media appeal.
Most of their sports are nationally competitive. They rank high in the sears cup (if that matters). Womens soccer and mens hockey both played for national championship the past calender year. Even though hockey isnt BE i think this still helps
Take a look at BE conference champions or runners up for the past few years, a strong representaion form ND.
Add in their academic rep and its easy to see why the BE wants to keep them around
12-17-2008 08:56 AM
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Post: #17
RE: You are Commish - Fix the Notre Dame situation
ucatky2287 Wrote:I like your plan but one thing that would help fix the BE situation with ND would be if the BCS would require all BCS teams to play at least 2 BCS schools home and away each year.
No BCS school should be aloud to have 8 home games like Ohio State and ND try to do. Requireing ND to play other BCS schools away is critical to a balanced schedule for college football. ND would not want to play a SEC or Big 12 team on the road so they would favor BE schools over other conferences.

Notre Dame played 10 BCS teams this year.

5 at home (Michigan, Purdue, Stanford, Pitt, Syracuse)

5 on the road (Mich St, North Carolina, Washington, BC, USC).
12-17-2008 09:18 AM
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RE: You are Commish - Fix the Notre Dame situation
Frank the Tank Wrote:This is well thought-out and it's good to see an approach outside of the rabid calls of "let's kick ND out" (because that ain't happening). The issue from my perspective, though, is that I'm not sure the underlying assumption for any of this to work - that the Big East is in a "sturdier" position to negotiate with the bowls - is necessarily true where you could implement your "Stage 1" as of today. I believe that the Big East's position as a BCS conference is secure now, which is extremely important and wasn't the case in 2003. However, I'm not sure that the Big East is substantially in a stronger position in terms of non-BCS bowl tie-ins. If the Big East is in a better bargaining position, then why did the Sun Bowl hope for the opportunity to take a 6-6 ND team instead of a Pitt team that had 3 more wins, including one head-to-head win over the Irish? Why has the Gator Bowl essentially taken the same approach for several years?

Hail Frank!

I think the fact that the Gator and the Sun want ND moreso than any Big East team is undeniable, but the conclusions you are drawing from that fact are suspect. If truth were to be told, outside of maybe tOSU or Michigan, those two bowls would much rather have ND (even a 7-5 ND for Gator or a 6-6 ND for the Sun) than any other Big Ten team even though that team may be 8-4, 9-3, or 10-2; outside of USC, they would rather have a 7-5,6-6 ND than any other Pac-10 team...well you get the point.

The real problems for the Big East when it comes to non-BCS bowls is the fact that it is the least attractive of the 6 BCS conferences; that it is still basically a northeastern conference far away from where most bowl games are played; and its perception (which is where the improvement is starting to be recognized) is that its teams do not travel well.

Quote:I think that the Big East has proven a lot on the field since 2003. However, the Gator Bowl and Sun Bowl obviously still have a less-than-enthusiastic perception of the Big East - they have been both pretty open about wanting ND or any Big 12 team over a Big East team. The natural and legitimate reaction of many Big East fans has been to tell those bowls to go f**k themselves, but the problem is that there isn't any evidence that there are other high paying bowls out there that would think any differently. What other bowl out there that has payouts equivalent to the Gator and Sun would feasibly sever ties with another BCS conference and then sign up the Big East without the exact same type of ND tie-in? Frankly, I don't see another high payout bowl that has shown that it would covet the Big East if ND isn't included.

Agreed that the Gator is the best the Big East is going to get. But keep in mind, the Big East has had the Gator without this current type of tie-in in the past. It used to have the "within one" rule prior until the last time negotiations were held. Heck, the Gator even tried to dump the Big East and shopped itself with and without ND around to the other conferences and found absolutely no takers before coming up with the current Gator-Sun combo deal.

The Big East is not happy with this arrangement and has told both the Gator and the Sun it will not continue in this format. The Sun isn't happy because they now realize that even with a more liberal formula, ND isn't so easy to get since for the Irish it tends to be BCS or bust over the past five years or so. The only one who really made out in this deal is the Gator, and even they got burnt when they wound up with Texas Tech from the Big 12.

Quote:Thus, the evidence right now is that the Big East isn't at the point where you could exercise your "Stage 1".

You are analyzing this from a Big East perspective only and not from a Gator Bowl perspective. As I mentioned earlier, the Gator shopped the Big East's slot to both the SEC and the Big Ten last time around. But to get either one of those two conferences, they would have to move the Bowl game from January 1 due to those conferences contracts with Citrus Sports. The Gator experimented with moving the bowl game from the January 1 slot back in the early 90s. All four of those games are outside of the Top 30 attended games in Gator history - even though they had Oklahoma, Florida, Alabama, and Tennessee as their big draws against the ACC team for three of them and VT for the fourth.

Since "settling" with the BE/ND tie-in and returning to the January 1 date, 7 of those 12 contests have been in the Top 30 best attended Gator games and an 8th (Louisville/VT) is at 34 which still beats two of the four games in the early 90s not on January 1. Two of those 7 games are in the Top 10 with WVU/Maryland at #8 and ND/NC State at #10.

The Gator has been far too successful on January 1 (even with the least attractive BCS conference tie-in perception-wise) to think about moving from that date again. So, unless the Citrus Sports gives up that clause in their contracts with the Big Ten and SEC or one or both of those conferences give up the more lucrative Outback Bowl (neither is giving up the Citrus) or the Citrus is added as a BCS Bowl game - the Gator isn't getting either the SEC or the Big Ten.

Now, what about the Big 12? The Gator could get the Big 12, but in order to do that, they have to give up ND. The Big 12, like the ACC, needs all of the income it can get so it isn't going to give up a bowl slot to ND in any year - especially when they have enough clout to tell the Gator to f*&^-off. Somehow I just don't think the Gator is going to give up a chance at ND every four years in the hopes that a Texas or a Nebraska falls to B12 #5 every three out of 4 years. Do you?

And that is just looking at it from the Gator perspective. I haven't even gotten to the NBC perspective. Do I even need to bother? 03-lmfao

So, looking at this from all sides of the equation, I believe UofL07 is correct when he says the Big East is now strong enough to pull off Stage 1. The New Big East was an unknown entity back when this contract was negotiated. Over the past 5 years it has proven itself to be as good as the Big East of the late 90s when SU and VT led the way. And it basically was strong enough then to do what you think it can't do now when it was the Old Big East and Miami was on probation. There simply is no reason to think it can't do so now, even for a "Debbie-Downer". 03-wink

Cheers,
Neil
12-17-2008 10:22 AM
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buckaineer Offline
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Post: #19
RE: You are Commish - Fix the Notre Dame situation
gosports1 Wrote:Love them or hate them ND is the BE's wetdream. Brand name, rapid fanbase, national recognition and great media appeal.
Most of their sports are nationally competitive. They rank high in the sears cup (if that matters). Womens soccer and mens hockey both played for national championship the past calender year. Even though hockey isnt BE i think this still helps
Take a look at BE conference champions or runners up for the past few years, a strong representaion form ND.
Add in their academic rep and its easy to see why the BE wants to keep them around

This to me is EXACTLY the problem. Look at where all these other ND sports were before they joined the BE. Nowhere near where they are now. By joining the BE ND's other sports have gained enormously while the rest of the conference-especially football has just been leached upon.

This is the core of the problem--why do the football schools need to help ND boost all of it's other sports while Notre Dame does nothing to boost BE football? Would the BE be significantly changed in other sports if ND was not there and say a Memphis came in to replace men's basketball and other sports? NO. Football would be improved though in regards to having to buy fewer OOC games, giving equal number of home and homes to league members, etc. But you better believe ND's other sports would be significantly impacted if they weren't part of the BE. Why then are they allowed to benefit at the expense of real members?

If you want to say others arent' in for football either, well--no other members have a qualified football team that refuses to compete equally with the other members except ND.
12-17-2008 10:50 AM
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CitrusUCF Offline
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Post: #20
RE: You are Commish - Fix the Notre Dame situation
I think the original poster vastly underestimates in the importance of ND to the Big East and overstates the importance of the Big East bowl deal to Notre Dame. Notre Dame is the best travelling team associated with the Big East. They draw a huge TV audience and fill up any stadium they play in. That is why the Gator and Sun Bowls are drooling over the prospect of them instead of a Pitt team, that while more deserving, probably won't fill up the Sun Bowl or come anywhere close. Notre Dame is essential to the Big East being able to maintain and better its present bowl lineup.

Likewise, Notre Dame is helped by the Big East tie-ins, but ultimately could survive without them. Several bowls would be happy to negotiate an exclusive deal with ND and could wring the hands of a present conference to agree to allowing an ND pre-emption, whereby the bowl could choose ND over the tie-in conference. Not only could this happen with the Gator & Sun Bowls, but certainly with some non-BE bowls. The Texas Bowl, the Independence Bowl, the GMAC, the EagleBank...practically any bowl where a tie-in is either a very low (#8 or lower) BCS or practically any non-BCS seed could well offer this sort of deal. I really do not think that ND would have much trouble securing itself a good bowl bid.
12-17-2008 10:52 AM
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