TerryD Wrote:How, exactly, would you accomplish that, Wilkie?

You would be representing 16 schools....you would need nine votes to do anything like that.

Would you get them?

While, I'm not Wilkie, here is an approach that might work:

The football schools put forth a proposal that if the league sponsors a sport all members of the conference who participate at that level must play that sport in conference. In the past with Miami (baseball) and Syracuse (men's lacrosse) this approach wouldn't have been feasible because two football programs would have been in violation of it. With Miami now in the ACC and SU joining a BE Men's Lax league, I don't think this would be an issue anymore - and it would show solidarity amongst the football schools.

Now, how do you get some of the bb schools to vote for the proposal? Behind closed doors the football schools would have to let it be known that if the resolution isn't passed they will have to give strong consideration of taking advantage of the get-out-of-jail-free card and form a separate conference.

Remind the bb schools that the resolution is non-threatening to the them since it doesn't impact any of them that I am aware of now that a men's lax league has been formed. And it doesn't cause them to actually vote out ND in particular, something they would never do since it isn't addressing any one school in particular, but it places the choice squarely in ND's hands.

Reasons why the football schools will likely not try this approach?

They appear to be happy with the status quo right now. Why rock the boat?

It could force ND's hand to join the Big Ten. A Big Ten with ND and PSU is not good for a conference who wants to stake a claim as being the northeastern college football league.

Cheers,
Neil

If ND is within 1 game of the BE team for a top bowl, they can get the bowl if they helped obtaining the bowl in the 1st place. ND on its own won't get those bowls to dedicate a slot for them, but with BE the bargaining power is much improved. It is a unfortunate situation, but ND and BE need each other during the next bowl negotiation. It is only bad when a 7-5 ND can take a bowl away from a 10-2 BE team. If a 7-5 ND took a bowl away from a 8-4 BE team, I think most BE FB schools can live with that if ND helped in getting the bowl in the 1st place.

Even after a split, I can see BE somehow still involved with ND on those bowl negotiations.

omnicarrier Wrote:

CitrusUCF Wrote:

omnicarrier Wrote:

CitrusUCF Wrote:I think the original poster vastly underestimates in the importance of ND to the Big East and overstates the importance of the Big East bowl deal to Notre Dame. Notre Dame is the best travelling team associated with the Big East. They draw a huge TV audience and fill up any stadium they play in. That is why the Gator and Sun Bowls are drooling over the prospect of them instead of a Pitt team, that while more deserving, probably won't fill up the Sun Bowl or come anywhere close. Notre Dame is essential to the Big East being able to maintain and better its present bowl lineup.

Shows some knowledge of college football history.

I don't know if you're being facetious or not. I am aware of Pitt and Syracuse's history among others in the Big East, but in this present economy, there is no way Pitt is going to fill up the Sun Bowl like Notre Dame would have.

Quote:

Quote:Likewise, Notre Dame is helped by the Big East tie-ins, but ultimately could survive without them. Several bowls would be happy to negotiate an exclusive deal with ND and could wring the hands of a present conference to agree to allowing an ND pre-emption, whereby the bowl could choose ND over the tie-in conference. Not only could this happen with the Gator & Sun Bowls, but certainly with some non-BE bowls. The Texas Bowl, the Independence Bowl, the GMAC, the EagleBank...practically any bowl where a tie-in is either a very low (#8 or lower) BCS or practically any non-BCS seed could well offer this sort of deal. I really do not think that ND would have much trouble securing itself a good bowl bid.

Now name them.

Cheers,
Neil

While there are obviously no official statements, here's just a few for thought...

Texas Bowl - Desires to be a BCS Bowl; an ND deal would be very prestigious for helping to grow the bowl's notoriety. Really wanted ND versus Rice this year.

Independence Bowl - Struggling financially, if it even survives its present dire situation. They wanted ND really bad this year, and I'd bet they'd prefer ND over Big 12 #7 most years.

------------------------The above I feel really certain about. Those below are a bit more speculative.

GMAC Bowl - CUSA #2 vs ND is better for TV and attendance than CUSA #2 vs MAC #2. Hmm...Bowling Green or Notre Dame?

Las Vegas Bowl, Albuquerque Bowl - Getting rid of one of the MWC-WAC matchups in favor of a MWC-ND matchup would be solid. Matching ND in the Las Vegas Bowl against the MWC champ would be solid.

EagleBank Bowl - ACC having 9 bowl eligible teams is a rarity thus far. The Philly-DC-Baltimore area is a huge ND fanbase, so bringing them in would sell out RFK.

Emerald Bowl - The ACC wants out of this game, and it would match ND against a Pac-10 team. ND-UCLA, ND-Oregon etc. would be good games.

Well, I think we now see the extent of your knowledge does not include how the current bowl system works.

Bowls wanting ND isn't the issue. However, the reason why bowl games have conference tie-ins is because they need to have a reliable draw each and every season. If they have a bowl tie-in ONLY with ND, they risk having to wait for the 6-6 leftovers from mostly non-BCS conferences that didn't have enough bowl tie-ins to make a conference bowl game.

The other part of the issue is that ND has to want the bowl tie-in. Sure they'll accept a Hawaii Bowl tie-in after the fact, but they are not going to sign a contract with them that associates the ND name with that low-level of a bowl on a partnership level. Not happening.

Now take those two factors together and you will realize why the suggestions you put forth are simply not going to happen UNLESS there is a Big East split and the football schools truly do tell ND to take a hike. Because in reality, outside their Cotton Bowl affiliation which has never been exercised since we have gone to the current system, those bowls are about the best that ND is going to do.

Cheers,
Neil

And now we see that reading comprehension is not a prerequisite for a Syracuse education. I never once suggested that a bowl needed only a Notre Dame tie-in. I suggested very clearly that a bowl game could use Notre Dame as a contractual alternative to less notable teams. In other words, the GMAC does not need the MAC, but the MAC needs the GMAC. That gives the GMAC the ability to wring the MAC's arm into accepting Notre Dame as an alternative to the MAC in some years. That is all I suggested; that just like a conference, Notre Dame could seek tie-ins with bowls to avoid having to wait for an at-large bid.

Then, you suggest that ND would not accept these bowls. Well, the entire premise of the original argument was that ND needs the BE Bowl Contract. It was not, "are there desirous alternatives?" The original post presumed that ND could not get bowl games without the BE, and I set out to show how they could. And you do not even consider that Notre Dame retains their BCS tie-in regardless of their status with the Big East. Clearly Notre Dame does have options, and that is why the Big East does not have nearly the negotiating power that the original poster argued.

I guess to me, it's not really a "Notre Dame situation." If you're really all THAT worked up about them, replace them with Xavier. Does the Big East take a big hit in basketball with that swap? No, not really. Does it impact the football teams? No, not really. As TerryD said, the olympic sports are secondary to football there. They'd willingly swap places with Xavier if it meant football autonomy.

If you want to "fix the *** situation," it's the bowl situation. That (and scheduling surety) are really the two items that as a commissioner you could fix. If I'm the commish, I'm finding out what it would take to bump the ACC from the Champs Bowl, and in the ears of the Independence Bowl and the Music City Bowl in order to provide access to our bowl teams for closer locations and opponents that are ideally not the ACC.

For scheduling surety, I would be in trying to set up something like they have in basketball by generating a Big East/SEC challenge, wherein we play one non-conference game against the opponent each of two seasons, and spread out the games a bit, in order to create some good match-ups and get us some home games against name opponents. I would use their vanity to appeal to the concept that giving the SEC a chance to elimate all of the Big East teams from any chance of going undefeated or possibly claiming a second BCS game would be in the best interests of their conference. The same could be attempted with the Big Ten. One could also see a similar set-up with the Mountain West Conference, though it would be interesting to see if they went overboard with their emphasis on those games as a way of "stealing the BCS bid..."

USFFan

CitrusUCF Wrote:

omnicarrier Wrote:

CitrusUCF Wrote:

omnicarrier Wrote:

CitrusUCF Wrote:I think the original poster vastly underestimates in the importance of ND to the Big East and overstates the importance of the Big East bowl deal to Notre Dame. Notre Dame is the best travelling team associated with the Big East. They draw a huge TV audience and fill up any stadium they play in. That is why the Gator and Sun Bowls are drooling over the prospect of them instead of a Pitt team, that while more deserving, probably won't fill up the Sun Bowl or come anywhere close. Notre Dame is essential to the Big East being able to maintain and better its present bowl lineup.

Shows some knowledge of college football history.

I don't know if you're being facetious or not. I am aware of Pitt and Syracuse's history among others in the Big East, but in this present economy, there is no way Pitt is going to fill up the Sun Bowl like Notre Dame would have.

Quote:

Quote:Likewise, Notre Dame is helped by the Big East tie-ins, but ultimately could survive without them. Several bowls would be happy to negotiate an exclusive deal with ND and could wring the hands of a present conference to agree to allowing an ND pre-emption, whereby the bowl could choose ND over the tie-in conference. Not only could this happen with the Gator & Sun Bowls, but certainly with some non-BE bowls. The Texas Bowl, the Independence Bowl, the GMAC, the EagleBank...practically any bowl where a tie-in is either a very low (#8 or lower) BCS or practically any non-BCS seed could well offer this sort of deal. I really do not think that ND would have much trouble securing itself a good bowl bid.

Now name them.

Cheers,
Neil

While there are obviously no official statements, here's just a few for thought...

Texas Bowl - Desires to be a BCS Bowl; an ND deal would be very prestigious for helping to grow the bowl's notoriety. Really wanted ND versus Rice this year.

Independence Bowl - Struggling financially, if it even survives its present dire situation. They wanted ND really bad this year, and I'd bet they'd prefer ND over Big 12 #7 most years.

------------------------The above I feel really certain about. Those below are a bit more speculative.

GMAC Bowl - CUSA #2 vs ND is better for TV and attendance than CUSA #2 vs MAC #2. Hmm...Bowling Green or Notre Dame?

Las Vegas Bowl, Albuquerque Bowl - Getting rid of one of the MWC-WAC matchups in favor of a MWC-ND matchup would be solid. Matching ND in the Las Vegas Bowl against the MWC champ would be solid.

EagleBank Bowl - ACC having 9 bowl eligible teams is a rarity thus far. The Philly-DC-Baltimore area is a huge ND fanbase, so bringing them in would sell out RFK.

Emerald Bowl - The ACC wants out of this game, and it would match ND against a Pac-10 team. ND-UCLA, ND-Oregon etc. would be good games.

Well, I think we now see the extent of your knowledge does not include how the current bowl system works.

Bowls wanting ND isn't the issue. However, the reason why bowl games have conference tie-ins is because they need to have a reliable draw each and every season. If they have a bowl tie-in ONLY with ND, they risk having to wait for the 6-6 leftovers from mostly non-BCS conferences that didn't have enough bowl tie-ins to make a conference bowl game.

The other part of the issue is that ND has to want the bowl tie-in. Sure they'll accept a Hawaii Bowl tie-in after the fact, but they are not going to sign a contract with them that associates the ND name with that low-level of a bowl on a partnership level. Not happening.

Now take those two factors together and you will realize why the suggestions you put forth are simply not going to happen UNLESS there is a Big East split and the football schools truly do tell ND to take a hike. Because in reality, outside their Cotton Bowl affiliation which has never been exercised since we have gone to the current system, those bowls are about the best that ND is going to do.

Cheers,
Neil

And now we see that reading comprehension is not a prerequisite for a Syracuse education. I never once suggested that a bowl needed only a Notre Dame tie-in. I suggested very clearly that a bowl game could use Notre Dame as a contractual alternative to less notable teams. In other words, the GMAC does not need the MAC, but the MAC needs the GMAC. That gives the GMAC the ability to wring the MAC's arm into accepting Notre Dame as an alternative to the MAC in some years. That is all I suggested; that just like a conference, Notre Dame could seek tie-ins with bowls to avoid having to wait for an at-large bid.

Yes, the GMAC does need the MAC or some other conference. Do you really think they are going to settle for a 6-6 leftover of the dregs vs. the MAC#1 or #2 on the off chance that once every 6 years or so they might be able to get ND?

Quote:Then, you suggest that ND would not accept these bowls. Well, the entire premise of the original argument was that ND needs the BE Bowl Contract. It was not, "are there desirous alternatives?" The original post presumed that ND could not get bowl games without the BE, and I set out to show how they could. And you do not even consider that Notre Dame retains their BCS tie-in regardless of their status with the Big East. Clearly Notre Dame does have options, and that is why the Big East does not have nearly the negotiating power that the original poster argued.

No, the thread is discussing what position the Big East is in vs. the position ND is in on various related topics. Part of a positional debate includes the likelihood the stance will influence what is desired. When it comes to forcing ND to play Big East opponents, the Big East football schools are in no position to force ND to schedule them since ND can leave the Big East for the Big Ten or put all of their sports in some other mid-major conference like the Missouri Valley and remain indy for football.

However, if the Big East were to say to the Gator that they will not continue on with an ND tie-in as part of the deal if it doesn't include a 1 in 4 year clause as well as a within 1 win of BE #2 rule, it might force the Gator to choose the Big 12 over the Big East (and the Big 12 is not going to let ND steal one of their slots) or the Gator acquiesces to the Big East demands.

If the Gator then chooses the Big 12, ND has far too much pride in itself and its tradition to tie itself contractually to the bowl games you list when it already has a Cotton Bowl contract and an avenue for the BCS. In a worse case scenario they would simply try to talk the Gator to continue the deal under the Big East demands or "wait it out" and take the best of the crap bowls like what happened this year.

As a matter of fact, this season has probably given the Irish a taste of reality. They are wanted by every bowl game, but the system as currently in place actually works against them. It wouldn't surprise me in the least to see them actively working with the Big East to improve the quality of the Big East line-up much moreso than they have in the past. Who knows, maybe they will push hard for the Liberty (a far superior bowl to any you mention above) as Big East #3?

Cheers,
Neil

I have NO problem with ND being part of the BE bowl equation. I have always thought that the BE could secure better bowl deals with ND in the picture.
What I have objected to is the unfair situation ND currently has with the Gator Bowl without bringing in any other Bowls.
IF the BE/ND can get a deal with the Gator and another bowl (Liberty.Champs etc) in which one extra bowl comes into the line up and ND can go to any BE Bowl but not more than ONCE in a 4 year period , and ND cant take the place of a BE team with two more wins,then I would say thats a good deal for all involved

gdayre Wrote:Omni, the only thing you left out was TV will decided on many things also. They have the power to change any dates they see fit to. The bowls will also agree because of the money too. "If and Only IF" tv decides that they want to split the BCS games between the 1st and the NC game, they will do it. Dont underestimate TV power in this. That is the one factor none of us can predict. TV has influenced other bowls to do so and can do the same here.

Actually, Gdayre, I have mentioned TV not only in this thread, but in the other two where this was being discussed recently.

Since NBC is the TV Network for the Gator, the January 1 date and an ND tie-in is paramount for them as well. Which is another reason why the Big East is actually in a good position, if their leadership truly understands the issues involved and realize that the Gator's and ND's options are as limited, if not moreso, than the Big East's.

Cheers,
Neil

We are stuck with Notre Dame. Let us use them to improve our bowls line up.

BCS – BE champ
Gator bowl - 1yr ND + 3yrs BE 2nd
Liberty bowl - 1yr ND + 3yrs BE 3rd
Meineke Bowl – 4th BE no ND tie-in
Consider drop any bowl with payout less than $750,000
International
Papa Johns
St. Petersburg

Just focus on improve our bowls line up.
They are doable, anything more is not productive.

SO#1 Wrote:We are stuck with Notre Dame. Let us use them to improve our bowls line up.

BCS – BE champ
Gator bowl - 1yr ND + 3yrs BE 2nd
Liberty bowl - 1yr ND + 3yrs BE 3rd
Meineke Bowl – 4th BE no ND tie-in
Consider drop any bowl with payout less than $750,000
International
Papa Johns
St. Petersburg

Just focus on improve our bowls line up.
They are doable, anything more is not productive.

BE should not settle for bowls that pay less than $1M unless its the 7th team or something. That Papajohn bowl got to go. Their payout suck and it is in Alabama.

omnicarrier Wrote:

gdayre Wrote:Omni, the only thing you left out was TV will decided on many things also. They have the power to change any dates they see fit to. The bowls will also agree because of the money too. "If and Only IF" tv decides that they want to split the BCS games between the 1st and the NC game, they will do it. Dont underestimate TV power in this. That is the one factor none of us can predict. TV has influenced other bowls to do so and can do the same here.

Actually, Gdayre, I have mentioned TV not only in this thread, but in the other two where this was being discussed recently.

Since NBC is the TV Network for the Gator, the January 1 date and an ND tie-in is paramount for them as well. Which is another reason why the Big East is actually in a good position, if their leadership truly understands the issues involved and realize that the Gator's and ND's options are as limited, if not moreso, than the Big East's.

Cheers,
Neil

NBC lost the Gator a couple years ago. It airs on CBS. Turn on NBC on New Year's Day last year you would have found the Sabres-Penguins game from Ralph Wilson Stadium, this year it will be Red Wings-Blackhawks from Wrigley Field.

Last year's game on NBC, I believe, had a better rating than the Gator (2.7 to 2.6).

Thanks Matt, I thought Gator bowl wasnt on NBC. Remember, ESPN has bought the rights to the BCS gams and they will do whatever they feel the need to fill spots. They could and would change, if they feel the need. TV is the driving force with the bowl games and that cannot be disputed. We all have witnessed changing dates and time of bowls games based on ESPN needs. We have seen the NC game pushed back from 2nd or 3rd to now 6th or 7th in January. All that was done based on TV need. I would not be surprise to see ESPN changing the dates for their needs which could open certain bowls to give the other BCS opportunities to steal this bowl from the BE. TV has more power and influence than anything the BE or ND offers. Since ESPN doesnt own ND contract, they arent concern with ND needs, nor what ND wants either. ESPN does things based on their needs not anyone elses. This seems to be lost in this conversation. With ESPN buying the games, I am certain, that change is coming.

mattsarz Wrote:

omnicarrier Wrote:

gdayre Wrote:Omni, the only thing you left out was TV will decided on many things also. They have the power to change any dates they see fit to. The bowls will also agree because of the money too. "If and Only IF" tv decides that they want to split the BCS games between the 1st and the NC game, they will do it. Dont underestimate TV power in this. That is the one factor none of us can predict. TV has influenced other bowls to do so and can do the same here.

Actually, Gdayre, I have mentioned TV not only in this thread, but in the other two where this was being discussed recently.

Since NBC is the TV Network for the Gator, the January 1 date and an ND tie-in is paramount for them as well. Which is another reason why the Big East is actually in a good position, if their leadership truly understands the issues involved and realize that the Gator's and ND's options are as limited, if not moreso, than the Big East's.

Cheers,
Neil

NBC lost the Gator a couple years ago. It airs on CBS. Turn on NBC on New Year's Day last year you would have found the Sabres-Penguins game from Ralph Wilson Stadium, this year it will be Red Wings-Blackhawks from Wrigley Field.

Last year's game on NBC, I believe, had a better rating than the Gator (2.7 to 2.6).

Thanks Matt. I hadn't realized that CBS bought the Gator, I tend to simply switch between channels on that day because I believe the Citrus game is usually on ABC at that time as well.

Still, CBS or NBC, I think you would agree either way any major network other than ABC/ESPN has a vested interest in that game retaining an ND connection AND staying on January 1 vs. switching the date which has been gdayre's point in order to say that the Gator can simply switch the date in order to get an SEC or Big Ten connection.

Cheers,
Neil

P.S. a 2.6 rating is what Texas Tech vs. Virginia is likely to get you.

I think the numbers will be higher with a Nebraska/Clemson match-up.

Omni, I would remind you that CBS also have alot invested with the SEC too. Dont put it past them to do what I suggested either. It is from those ties, that I believe in what I am saying. CBS covents the SEC over any and all other leagues.
Look at the deals that ESPN and CBS made with the SEC and to what extent. I wouldnt be a bit surprise if the BE and ND loses both Sun and Gator. They know what kinda of rating they get with the SEC and that is enough with dual ownership of the TV rights of these games to do just what I suggested.

Notre Dame beginning in 2010 will play 7 home games, 4 away and one game at a neutral site. This schedule is set up to keep ND in a bowl game every year. Some of the neutral site games will be Navy, Army, UCONN, Washington and other Big East teams. This type of schedule is a big advantage to ND

gdayre Wrote:Omni, I would remind you that CBS also have alot invested with the SEC too. Dont put it past them to do what I suggested either. It is from those ties, that I believe in what I am saying. CBS covents the SEC over any and all other leagues.
Look at the deals that ESPN and CBS made with the SEC and to what extent. I wouldnt be a bit surprise if the BE and ND loses both Sun and Gator. They know what kinda of rating they get with the SEC and that is enough with dual ownership of the TV rights of these games to do just what I suggested.

The problem for the Gator Bowl here is that the Capital One Bowl (the highest paying non-BCS bowl), which is usually played in the same time slot as the Gator Bowl, has an exclusivity clause with the SEC and Big Ten that no other bowls can feature those conferences in that time slot. This is why the Cotton and Outback Bowls are played so early in the morning on New Year's Day (or, in the case of the Cotton this year, moved off of New Year's Day altogether). Thus, unless the Gator is willing to take a non-NYD date or play very early in the morning on NYD, it cannot go after an SEC team.

Of course, if the Gator was willing to do that, they could also have a similar ND tie-in with the SEC that exists with the Cotton Bowl.

Frank the Tank Wrote:

gdayre Wrote:Omni, I would remind you that CBS also have alot invested with the SEC too. Dont put it past them to do what I suggested either. It is from those ties, that I believe in what I am saying. CBS covents the SEC over any and all other leagues.
Look at the deals that ESPN and CBS made with the SEC and to what extent. I wouldnt be a bit surprise if the BE and ND loses both Sun and Gator. They know what kinda of rating they get with the SEC and that is enough with dual ownership of the TV rights of these games to do just what I suggested.

The problem for the Gator Bowl here is that the Capital One Bowl (the highest paying non-BCS bowl), which is usually played in the same time slot as the Gator Bowl, has an exclusivity clause with the SEC and Big Ten that no other bowls can feature those conferences in that time slot. This is why the Cotton and Outback Bowls are played so early in the morning on New Year's Day (or, in the case of the Cotton this year, moved off of New Year's Day altogether). Thus, unless the Gator is willing to take a non-NYD date or play very early in the morning on NYD, it cannot go after an SEC team.

Of course, if the Gator was willing to do that, they could also have a similar ND tie-in with the SEC that exists with the Cotton Bowl.

As already mentioned in a previous post, the Gator has already been through the non January 1 date during much of its history, most recently in the early 90s when it was on TBS and even with teams like Florida and Alabama playing in those games the attendance was not as expected.

It is one of the reasons why they went to NBC back in 1996 in order to get back the January 1 date where it had originally started

And as also previously mentioned, either in this thread or the other two where this has been discussed ad nauseum, the Gator sees itself as being on equal footing with the Citrus and a rightful heir to being the next BCS Bowl game. A move away from January 1 hurts that perception in their eyes.

The only way I see the Gator moving from the January 1 date is if there are no takers for the game other than ESPN. If that were to occur, then the Gator loses out to the Citrus. Somehow I just don't think that the Gator is going to let that happen, but one never knows.

The reality right now is that neither CBS (nor NBC if it were to be approached again about airing the game) have a reason to move the game from the January 1 date and the Gator certainly does not want to move the date.

Cheers,
Neil

omnicarrier Wrote:

Frank the Tank Wrote:

gdayre Wrote:Omni, I would remind you that CBS also have alot invested with the SEC too. Dont put it past them to do what I suggested either. It is from those ties, that I believe in what I am saying. CBS covents the SEC over any and all other leagues.
Look at the deals that ESPN and CBS made with the SEC and to what extent. I wouldnt be a bit surprise if the BE and ND loses both Sun and Gator. They know what kinda of rating they get with the SEC and that is enough with dual ownership of the TV rights of these games to do just what I suggested.

The problem for the Gator Bowl here is that the Capital One Bowl (the highest paying non-BCS bowl), which is usually played in the same time slot as the Gator Bowl, has an exclusivity clause with the SEC and Big Ten that no other bowls can feature those conferences in that time slot. This is why the Cotton and Outback Bowls are played so early in the morning on New Year's Day (or, in the case of the Cotton this year, moved off of New Year's Day altogether). Thus, unless the Gator is willing to take a non-NYD date or play very early in the morning on NYD, it cannot go after an SEC team.

Of course, if the Gator was willing to do that, they could also have a similar ND tie-in with the SEC that exists with the Cotton Bowl.

As already mentioned in a previous post, the Gator has already been through the non January 1 date during much of its history, most recently in the early 90s when it was on TBS and even with teams like Florida and Alabama playing in those games the attendance was not as expected.

It is one of the reasons why they went to NBC back in 1996 in order to get back the January 1 date where it had originally started

And as also previously mentioned, either in this thread or the other two where this has been discussed ad nauseum, the Gator sees itself as being on equal footing with the Citrus and a rightful heir to being the next BCS Bowl game. A move away from January 1 hurts that perception in their eyes.

The only way I see the Gator moving from the January 1 date is if there are no takers for the game other than ESPN. If that were to occur, then the Gator loses out to the Citrus. Somehow I just don't think that the Gator is going to let that happen, but one never knows.

The reality right now is that neither CBS (nor NBC if it were to be approached again about airing the game) have a reason to move the game from the January 1 date and the Gator certainly does not want to move the date.

Cheers,
Neil

I agree with everything that you're saying - my main point was responding to the suggestion that CBS might push for a SEC tie-in for the Gator Bowl, which would not be able to happen unless the Gator was willing to move from NYD (and I understand they don't want to do).

It's fascinating that the Gator Bowl thinks itself of an equal to the Capital One Bowl, though, as that is quite delusional - the Outback Bowl ($3.2 million) pays out more than the Gator ($2.5 million), much less than the Capital One Bowl ($4.25 million, which is the largest non-BCS bowl payout by a substantial margin). Payout amounts are essentially the measure of "prestige" for the non-BCS bowls at the end of the day. Here's a list of this year's payouts, which show the Gator Bowl behind a couple of other bowls (Cotton, Chick-fil-A) and much closer to the Champs Sports and Alamo Bowls:

http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2008/...r_friendly

Frank the Tank Wrote:

omnicarrier Wrote:

Frank the Tank Wrote:

gdayre Wrote:Omni, I would remind you that CBS also have alot invested with the SEC too. Dont put it past them to do what I suggested either. It is from those ties, that I believe in what I am saying. CBS covents the SEC over any and all other leagues.
Look at the deals that ESPN and CBS made with the SEC and to what extent. I wouldnt be a bit surprise if the BE and ND loses both Sun and Gator. They know what kinda of rating they get with the SEC and that is enough with dual ownership of the TV rights of these games to do just what I suggested.

The problem for the Gator Bowl here is that the Capital One Bowl (the highest paying non-BCS bowl), which is usually played in the same time slot as the Gator Bowl, has an exclusivity clause with the SEC and Big Ten that no other bowls can feature those conferences in that time slot. This is why the Cotton and Outback Bowls are played so early in the morning on New Year's Day (or, in the case of the Cotton this year, moved off of New Year's Day altogether). Thus, unless the Gator is willing to take a non-NYD date or play very early in the morning on NYD, it cannot go after an SEC team.

Of course, if the Gator was willing to do that, they could also have a similar ND tie-in with the SEC that exists with the Cotton Bowl.

As already mentioned in a previous post, the Gator has already been through the non January 1 date during much of its history, most recently in the early 90s when it was on TBS and even with teams like Florida and Alabama playing in those games the attendance was not as expected.

It is one of the reasons why they went to NBC back in 1996 in order to get back the January 1 date where it had originally started

And as also previously mentioned, either in this thread or the other two where this has been discussed ad nauseum, the Gator sees itself as being on equal footing with the Citrus and a rightful heir to being the next BCS Bowl game. A move away from January 1 hurts that perception in their eyes.

The only way I see the Gator moving from the January 1 date is if there are no takers for the game other than ESPN. If that were to occur, then the Gator loses out to the Citrus. Somehow I just don't think that the Gator is going to let that happen, but one never knows.

The reality right now is that neither CBS (nor NBC if it were to be approached again about airing the game) have a reason to move the game from the January 1 date and the Gator certainly does not want to move the date.

Cheers,
Neil

I agree with everything that you're saying - my main point was responding to the suggestion that CBS might push for a SEC tie-in for the Gator Bowl, which would not be able to happen unless the Gator was willing to move from NYD (and I understand they don't want to do).

It's fascinating that the Gator Bowl thinks itself of an equal to the Capital One Bowl, though, as that is quite delusional - the Outback Bowl ($3.2 million) pays out more than the Gator ($2.5 million), much less than the Capital One Bowl ($4.25 million, which is the largest non-BCS bowl payout by a substantial margin). Payout amounts are essentially the measure of "prestige" for the non-BCS bowls at the end of the day. Here's a list of this year's payouts, which show the Gator Bowl behind a couple of other bowls (Cotton, Chick-fil-A) and much closer to the Champs Sports and Alamo Bowls:

http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2008/...r_friendly

That thinking began when both the Gator and the Citrus tried to outbid the Orange as the fourth BCS Bowl back in the 90s. Supposedly it was the Gator's proposal that was almost accepted over the Orange, but the Orange won out due to its long-standing history.

It continued on back in 2004 or 2005 when ABC/ESPN wanted to go to the BCS Plus One that the Pac-10 and Big Ten nixed. In that plan the model was to add a fifth BCS Bowl and then pick the two best teams from those five games and have an NC game two weeks later. Had it not been nixed the competition was supposedly going to come down to the Citrus, the Gator and the Cotton with the Gator again the forerunner due to the fact that they were willing *gasp* to be the Big East anchor bowl should the league meet the new eligibility criteria for an auto-bid.

I've read some cfb writers/analysts think the higher $$$ involved with the Citrus is actually a drawback for them being elevated to BCS Bowl status (should another bowl be added) because no other bowl will likely pay what they pay for the SEC #2/3 and Big Ten #2/3 match-up.

But if they are elevated over the Gator and the Cotton, look for the Gator to ditch both the ACC and the Big East for that match-up.

Cheers,
Neil

In the spirit of incremental "improvement," I would like the Big East to at least insist contractually, with the next bowl agreement, that any BE bowl berth that ND "legally swipes" from its full-conference-member cousins, all the revenue from that bowl goes into the BE pot to be shared by the conference members, and I'd let ND keep their 1/9th share of that bowl. I'm pretty sure that ND now keeps all of its revenue derived from appearing in a "Big East bowl". To me, this is a clear case of "you're either in or out, with us or against us." We're not talking about a huge amount of money here each year, and ND probably has that much lying between the cushions of its lobby couches, but I think the principle counts here. I guess the point is that I want ND to start getting a little pushback from the conference, rather than the boys in Providence bending over at every turn, and probably offering to reapply the lube as necessary.

George Kaplan Wrote:I guess the point is that I want ND to start getting a little pushback from the conference, rather than the boys in Providence bending over at every turn, and probably offering to reapply the lube as necessary.

The conference offices don't do anything without presidential buy-in. Maybe you ought to be asking the folks in the big chairs in Morgantown and New Brunswick and Storrs why they continue to sign off on this.