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Should Notre Dame Join a Conference—or Stay Independent?
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SO#1 Offline
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Should Notre Dame Join a Conference—or Stay Independent?
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/34784...ndependent

Let’s talk Independence. You don’t have to look far on message boards or in sports articles to see advice to Notre Dame to “join a conference”—usually without clear reasons and occasionally with disparaging comments about Irish football.

Notre Dame football has yet to sacrifice its independence or many of its longtime rivalries—something many Americans still respect. This independence has greater risk and more challenges in assuming duties conferences handle, but also has greater rewards and more freedom.

The achievement is a national university football program whose every game is televised, rivalries from coast to coast, and a national fan base.

The financial benefits of membership in a large conference, however, include a chance at a BCS bowl, a collection of secondary bowls for three-quarters of its teams, an eight-game conference schedule, share in a lucrative conference championship, and a division of all the bowl monies, plus a television package through the conference.

Major conferences generate a degree of market control, some pricing power, and a collective identity. Fans debate which conferences have the better teams, the best defenses, or the harder schedules.

Conferences encompass some great traditional geographic rivalries—Ohio State-Michigan, Texas-Oklahoma, Alabama-Auburn, USC-UCLA—and the tension that goes with finding out who will be the conference champion.

As an independent, Notre Dame must earn it alone. Is there still a place in college football for the independent—the equivalent of a successful family business in a corporate world? Should Notre Dame join a conference?

Notre Dame’s “Conference” of Opponents Compared - Longevity

For argument’s sake, we’ll call the eight teams listed below Notre Dame’s “conference”—three Big Ten teams (Michigan, Michigan State, Purdue), two from the Pac-10 (Southern Cal, Stanford), one from the Big East (Pittsburgh), one from the ACC (Boston College) and one Independent (Navy).

Notre Dame is the major non-conference opponent for each of these teams. Compared to most conferences' teams in longevity, Notre Dame’s traditional rivalries are quite comparable, especially the top five teams.

Notre Dame--------------Okla-----------USC---------LSU
-------------------------(Big 12)---------(Pac 10)--------(SEC)
Opponent------Yrs Played
Navy-----------81-----Okla St--102------Cal--95-----Miss St--101
Southern Cal---79-----Texas --102---Stanford--85------Miss -96
Purdue---------79-----Kansas--99----Wash---78------Ala---71
Mich St--------71-----Mo------93----UCLA---77------Kent--55
Pittsburgh------63----K-State--89----Ore St--71------Fla---54
----------------373----------- 485----------406-----------377
Michigan-------35-----Nebr-----83----Wash St--67---Ark---53
Stanford-------22----Colo------58-----Ore------54---Aub---42
Boston---------17----Tex A&M--26----ASU-----33---Vand---28
College-----------------------------------------------------------
Total Yrs-------447------------652-----------560----------500


Army (49 yrs) and Northwestern (47) have played the Irish more than Stanford or Boston College, but neither are on ND’s future schedule except for one game against Army. Stanford has played ND the last eleven years. BC has played ND 14 out of the last 16 years. Notre Dame has scheduled Stanford and MSU through 2011, Pitts and BC through 2012, and Michigan and Purdue through 2016.

Southern Cal has played Notre Dame more than any of its conference opponents except Cal and Stanford.

The Big 12, Pac-10, and SEC (above) have more history with their opponents than ND does, but the three conferences most mentioned as possibilities for Notre Dame football are the Big Ten, ACC, and Big East (below).

Notre Dame---------Ohio St------Clemson--------West Va
Opponent--Yrs-----(Big Ten)---------(ACC)-----------(Big East)
--------- Played--------------------------------------------------
Navy-----81-------Mich-----104----NC St---76----Pitts-----100
Southern Cal---79--llinois----94-----Wake----73---Syracuse--55
Purdue------79-----Wisc----73-----GTech---72----Rutgers---35
Mich St-----71-----NW------73-----Md------56----Cincy-----16
Pittsburgh---63----Purdue---50-----NC-------53---Louisville---9
------------373------------394-------------330-------------215
Michigan----35-----Minn----47-----Duke-----51----Conn-----4
Stanford----22-----Mich St--38-----Va------44----S. Fla-----3
Boston-----17------Penn St--33----V-Tech--30----(None)
College---------------------------------------------------------
Total Yrs---447------------512------------455----------222

Purdue and Michigan State have played Notre Dame much more than Ohio State.

Again, the longevity of games with opponents is more than comparable—especially when ND is compared to an ACC or Big East team—even allowing for the Big East only having eight teams.

So, if Notre Dame joined a conference with a full eight game in-conference schedule, which four opponents should ND keep? Southern Cal, Michigan, Navy, and Boston College? Would it not be like Florida switching to the ACC and being told to choose which four SEC teams it wished to continue to play non-conference?

Joining the Big Ten would allow Notre Dame to keep Michigan, Purdue and Michigan State. The Irish might substitute non-conference Pittsburgh for Michigan, adding to USC, Boston College, and Navy.

That non-conference schedule would be tougher than the usual Big Ten or Big East teams's non-conference schedule. Notre Dame’s strength of schedule ranks traditionally in the top ten—seventh in the 2000s, eighth in the 1990-99 decade, and first in 1980-89—for the past 30 years.
(This post was last modified: 07-05-2008 02:55 PM by SO#1.)
07-05-2008 02:52 PM
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hawghiggs Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Should Notre Dame Join a Conference—or Stay Independent?
The BIG East should show Notre Dame the door and add a school like memphis or Ecu that would play in all sports.
07-05-2008 03:23 PM
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bitcruncher Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Should Notre Dame Join a Conference—or Stay Independent?
The Irish should sh!t or get off the pot. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If they want the benefits of membership in The BEast for their sports programs, they should join for ALL SPORTS, and not just all sports but football.
07-05-2008 05:06 PM
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Jugnaut Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Should Notre Dame Join a Conference—or Stay Independent?
They're doing well as an independent, but they're hated for their special status. The other BCS conference could screw ND by boxing them out of the national championship if they don't play in a conference. It's probably in their long-term interest to join the Big Ten. That's where they belong. They are peers with Big Ten schools and geographically it makes sense. ND is just using the Big East and won't ever join the league. The BE should kick them out.
07-05-2008 05:17 PM
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ClairtonPanther Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Should Notre Dame Join a Conference—or Stay Independent?
wow pitt made the list as N.D. natural conference with USC... blah at this whole article. its all mute cuzz we all know N.D will be indy till at least 2015 or 16
07-05-2008 05:21 PM
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bitcruncher Offline
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RE: Should Notre Dame Join a Conference—or Stay Independent?
Jugnaut Wrote:They're doing well as an independent, but they're hated for their special status. The other BCS conference could screw ND by boxing them out of the national championship if they don't play in a conference. It's probably in their long-term interest to join the Big Ten. That's where they belong. They are peers with Big Ten schools and geographically it makes sense. ND is just using the Big East and won't ever join the league. The BE should kick them out.
They're doing well as an independent because they leach off every other team in the nation, and teams will bend over for the Irish to screw them. To heck with that. Without BEast membership, ND basketball would be an afterthought, with little hope for success. Same for the rest of their sports. They're only strong enough to remain independent in football. If they were made a pariah for the cause of football independence, the rest of their sports programs would fade away to nothing...
07-05-2008 05:32 PM
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goodknightfl Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Should Notre Dame Join a Conference—or Stay Independent?
ND would be stupid to join any conf today.. If they didn't have the auto bid into the bcs it would be different.. but they do .. and they have a great tv deal where they are..
07-05-2008 06:40 PM
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DFW HOYA Offline
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RE: Should Notre Dame Join a Conference—or Stay Independent?
Let's phrase this question another way--if YOUR school had the benefit of an NBC contract, the ability to fast-track into a BCS bowl, and be able to keep ther $18M or so from a major bowl bid, how much would you be pushing your school to join the Big East football conference?
(This post was last modified: 07-05-2008 06:55 PM by DFW HOYA.)
07-05-2008 06:55 PM
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bitcruncher Offline
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RE: Should Notre Dame Join a Conference—or Stay Independent?
I understand their reasoning. It doesn't mean I have to like it.
07-05-2008 07:26 PM
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Post: #10
RE: Should Notre Dame Join a Conference—or Stay Independent?
I have yet to see any listing and balancing of FOOTBALL plusses and minuses of independence versus conference membership that articulates reasons or ways in which ND FOOTBALL would benefit from conference membership more than by remaining an independent.

The powers that be at ND will not kill the golden goose. They will protect football independence at the expense of their other sports, if required.

How would conference membership benefit the football program more than harm it? I have not seen anyone ever do that analysis and come up with facts and numbers that would sell ND on the idea.
(This post was last modified: 07-05-2008 09:57 PM by TerryD.)
07-05-2008 09:57 PM
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DFW HOYA Offline
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RE: Should Notre Dame Join a Conference—or Stay Independent?
What drives a lot of these decisions is, well, the lack of success.

Notre Dame was a proud basketball independent in the Phelps era: eight bids between 1980 and 1990, lots of games on NBC. When those NCAA bids and TV coverage went away, independence didn't look so good.

Syarcuse was a proud lacrosse independent where NCAA bids were an annual fait accompli. When did the talk about joining the Big East start taking hold? The year Syracuse sat out the tournament.

In the six years prior to joining the Big Ten, Penn State had one top 10 finish. Maybe the Nits couldn't have remained an football independent as ND has, but they didn't enjoy the success in the early 1990's that they had grown accustomed to.

Bottom line, if ND is back to nine and ten win seasons, this is a moot point.
(This post was last modified: 07-05-2008 10:32 PM by DFW HOYA.)
07-05-2008 10:29 PM
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hawghiggs Offline
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Post: #12
RE: Should Notre Dame Join a Conference—or Stay Independent?
It would be very hard to force ND into a conference but that does not mean that the Big East should keep taking there crap. ND needs to be told become a full member or at the end of next season the Big East will be looking for a full member and they will need to look elsewhere. something will need to give soon in the BE or there could be a split. give ND the boot would make way for a full member.
07-05-2008 10:38 PM
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texasorange Offline
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RE: Should Notre Dame Join a Conference—or Stay Independent?
DFW HOYA Wrote:Syarcuse was a proud lacrosse independent where NCAA bids were an annual fait accompli.


Dear Lord!! We have been in the same conference from the beginning. Please spell our name right!!

As for Notre Dame...

I would like to say "get the hell off the bus", because I do think, to an extent, they are gravy-training it on basketball, baseball & now lacrosse. But I know it will not happen until the BE schools split up. ND has the right to stay independent as long as they can afford to; or at least as long as it benefits them. Until the BCS conferences force an unattainable threshold on them, they will stay independent.

My own feelings are mixed. I dislike ND for many reasons, but I know SU fans flock to the Dome for a BB game with them, and a FB game in the Dome with ND is also a plus.

Still, the stability of an all sport conference of 9 or 10 schools/teams is so appealing to me.

Syracuse, UConn, Pitt, WVU, Rutgers, Louisville, Cincinnati, USF, UCF, Memphis. 04-rock
07-06-2008 10:25 PM
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Bearcats#1 Offline
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RE: Should Notre Dame Join a Conference—or Stay Independent?
bitcruncher Wrote:The Irish should sh!t or get off the pot. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If they want the benefits of membership in The BEast for their sports programs, they should join for ALL SPORTS, and not just all sports but football.


agreed but since they aren't going to $%^@ they will need to get off the pot. Let their non football and especially NON REVENUE sports go flippin LEACH off some other poor conference.
07-06-2008 10:38 PM
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panite Offline
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RE: Should Notre Dame Join a Conference—or Stay Independent?
No one is going to kick ND out of the BE conference no matter how arrogant they are and no matter how much they abuse the system, just like no other full time BB or FB school are will be thrown out either. If the rest of the BCS conferences and B-10 schools are going to kiss their butts by scheduling them OOC, and allow them to exist as an apparent individual conference at the BCS buffet table, then the BE will continue to take their crap too if the schools can profit and benefit from the association with them. Until the BCS shuts them down and out, they will continue to be the arraogant institution they are and only look out for themselves first in any and every situation they are involved in.
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07-07-2008 06:37 AM
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RE: Should Notre Dame Join a Conference—or Stay Independent?
DFW HOYA Wrote:Let's phrase this question another way--if YOUR school had the benefit of an NBC contract, the ability to fast-track into a BCS bowl, and be able to keep ther $18M or so from a major bowl bid, how much would you be pushing your school to join the Big East football conference?

Yes I will agree. If Pitt still had a fast track to the BCS and got to schedule anyone that they wanted to get there. Sure I would enjoy Indy status. But we aren't so its mute. Good point Hoya
07-07-2008 01:26 PM
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RE: Should Notre Dame Join a Conference—or Stay Independent?
panite Wrote:No one is going to kick ND out of the BE conference no matter how arrogant they are and no matter how much they abuse the system, just like no other full time BB or FB school are will be thrown out either. If the rest of the BCS conferences and B-10 schools are going to kiss their butts by scheduling them OOC, and allow them to exist as an apparent individual conference at the BCS buffet table, then the BE will continue to take their crap too if the schools can profit and benefit from the association with them. Until the BCS shuts them down and out, they will continue to be the arraogant institution they are and only look out for themselves first in any and every situation they are involved in.
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I agree. I don't understand why some people even suggest it. Sure I hate the fact that they use us for bowl bid and everything else. But they are with the basketball schools. So no way any Roman school will go along with the football schools and kick Notre Dame out. Stop bringing that nonsence up.
07-07-2008 01:29 PM
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