oldtiger Wrote:

80sTiger Wrote:

missjtiger Wrote:Everyone is different in what they want out of a church. There are probably dozens of reasons why people choose to go or belong to their respective churches. Personally, for me, the denominational doctrine is at the bottom of the list, so to say. I don't feel like a Presbyterian.....I feel like a Christian trying my best to learn as much as I can and as Eli said this morning....."walk the walk" and change my "want tos". Whatever "label" comes with being a Presbyterian, I'll gladly accept. I don't have a problem with people attending or joining because of the music, the pastor's sermons, the good gourmet coffee, the beautiful grounds, the convenience to their home, the sunday school classes or the clean bathrooms. Whatever it takes is better than no church home at all.

No offense intended, but this is usually where these conversations end up with Hope members, which is a good thing in a way. Personally, it's refreshing to see someone so enthused about their church that they actually say "I don't care what the church's theology is". On the other hand, how anyone can say they have no problem with a theology but do none of the "heavy lifting" to find out what it actually *is* should concern any Christian. These are not "labels" - these are the FOUNDATIONS of the church - core beliefs; Biblical interpretation; matters of salvation. To have no inkling of where you church stands on matters like eternal salvation, predestination, etc, and then be able to resolve them in your own mind (agree with them through CONVICTION - not just because you like the music program, for instance) is beyond me. If a church's theology is flawed, all the best intentions and attendance in the world is a complete and utter waste.

Also no offense intended but perhaps Calvin's predestination and "being chosen vs choosing" is the issue here.

The church was established to be a hospital for sinners to learn Jesus' grace and salvation, not a holy huddle where "experts" argue technical theology points. I'm sorry, I won't be drawn into those arguments. If theology gets more complicated than Jesus' salvation, it's too complicated for me.

I KNOW Jesus salvation.....others BELIEVE theology....there is a huge difference. It wasn't Jesus' intent for us to argue theology, but to spread the word of his grace. Man's theology has made the whole process way too complicated.

Have a great evening 80s Tiger and perhaps we'll run into each other some day.

Let's take a step back to be clear to everyone - I am thrilled for anyone that has found the saving grace of our Lord, Jesus Christ. Absolutely thrilled - nothing is more important in our lives. My main point initially wasn't at all about how a church *should* be (that's another topic entirely), but the number of people that I encounter that are members of churches for what I consider to be "the wrong reasons". I do not think you should join a church because you like to wear jeans on Sunday mornings, or you really like the music, or the pastor is "laid back" - certainly all these things can go into an *overall* decision, but everyone should absolutely understand what the basic foundation of their church's beliefs are both locally and as a denomination nationally. We seem to be speaking somewhat of Hope and Presbyterians here as an example, so, along those lines, using everyone's logic here, why doesn't Hope just drop the Presbyterian affiliation and become Hope Christian Church (or something like that) ? I can tell you why - IT'S A PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH and was founded on the basis of Presbyterian theology - probably for a reason. So, there rests my point - in this specific example of Hope, as much as we want to boil it down to John 3:16, at some point we're all supposed to grow deeper in our spiritual knowledge - that growth is usually fostered greatly, if not exclusively, by our pastor and ministerial staff - and, once again in this example with Hope, that growth and affiliation will be done through the filter of the Presbyterian faith. That said, that's all fine and good if you understand that faith/theology fully and it's ramifications, but to just join a church and pretend it doesn't matter or exist is, once again pardon my bluntness, spritually lazy IMHO.

I'm confused, but that's OK.

Prior to joining Hope everyone is required to participate in a 6 night intro to Hope series, in which the distictives of the local church and the Evangelical Pres church are reviewed and discussed. Folks shouldn't walk into membership blind. So, I guess I really don't understand the basis of the discussion.

Have a good week Mr 80sTiger, again perhaps we can meet someday either on earth or in eternity. I'll bet you'll find a few of us Hope members there, and we'll be glad to see you.

I'm kinda confused too about what this is really all about. It sounds like 80s doesn't agree with or dislikes what the Presbyterian church believes. That's good and fine and he has every right. That's why there are all kinds of religions/churches and doctrines. Like I said before, if it's coffee, bigness, being casual, a pastor's personality, music, or where a church is located...if that church helps open someone's eyes that the Lord Jesus Christ loves them more than they'll ever be able to comprehend and that they are never ever alone, then that's a good thing. Most people today could care less about the beliefs and doctrines. If they feel comfortable and leave that church a better person, even if it's just a tiny bit better, then I have a hard time believing God wouldn't approve. 80s, have you noticed that no one has asked where you go to church ? You know why ? because it doesn't matter one single bit. It doesn't matter if you go to a country church where they believe handling snakes is meaningful, or if you go to a church that believes that women never cut their hair or never ever wear long pants, or a church that has so many rules and regulations concerning drinking alcohol and who you are friends with that alot are labeled hypocrites. It just doesn't matter. I happen to believe that it just doesn't matter to God either.

I would really appreciate an answer from you on just who decides if a religion's theology is flawed ?

missjtiger Wrote:I'm kinda confused too about what this is really all about. It sounds like 80s doesn't agree with or dislikes what the Presbyterian church believes. That's good and fine and he has every right. That's why there are all kinds of religions/churches and doctrines. Like I said before, if it's coffee, bigness, being casual, a pastor's personality, music, or where a church is located...if that church helps open someone's eyes that the Lord Jesus Christ loves them more than they'll ever be able to comprehend and that they are never ever alone, then that's a good thing. Most people today could care less about the beliefs and doctrines. If they feel comfortable and leave that church a better person, even if it's just a tiny bit better, then I have a hard time believing God wouldn't approve. 80s, have you noticed that no one has asked where you go to church ? You know why ? because it doesn't matter one single bit. It doesn't matter if you go to a country church where they believe handling snakes is meaningful, or if you go to a church that believes that women never cut their hair or never ever wear long pants, or a church that has so many rules and regulations concerning drinking alcohol and who you are friends with that alot are labeled hypocrites. It just doesn't matter. I happen to believe that it just doesn't matter to God either.

I would really appreciate an answer from you on just who decides if a religion's theology is flawed ?

I'm being totally transparent here - and trying to be respectful as well. I have nothing "against" Hope or the Presbyterian church. I apologize again if anyone is feeling something different. I guess you hit the nail on the head with your last reply when you said "it just doesn't matter" - I couldn't disagree more. I respect everyone's right to attend and worship in their own way - absolutely. However, there are important differences between churches - that's why there are denominations in the Protestant church to begin with ... many of the differences are based on serious, core prinicples. I don't understand how anyone can join a church and ignore the fact that these defining principles exist and, furthermore, have no opinion. I think my previous posts are clear and compelling - I don't understand the need to try to assign some "hidden agenda" to them. I'm not upset or angry with anyone here - just having a nice intellectual discussion about spiritual matters !

I also come here for intelligent, intellectual conversation.

80sTiger Wrote:

missjtiger Wrote:I'm kinda confused too about what this is really all about. It sounds like 80s doesn't agree with or dislikes what the Presbyterian church believes. That's good and fine and he has every right. That's why there are all kinds of religions/churches and doctrines. Like I said before, if it's coffee, bigness, being casual, a pastor's personality, music, or where a church is located...if that church helps open someone's eyes that the Lord Jesus Christ loves them more than they'll ever be able to comprehend and that they are never ever alone, then that's a good thing. Most people today could care less about the beliefs and doctrines. If they feel comfortable and leave that church a better person, even if it's just a tiny bit better, then I have a hard time believing God wouldn't approve. 80s, have you noticed that no one has asked where you go to church ? You know why ? because it doesn't matter one single bit. It doesn't matter if you go to a country church where they believe handling snakes is meaningful, or if you go to a church that believes that women never cut their hair or never ever wear long pants, or a church that has so many rules and regulations concerning drinking alcohol and who you are friends with that alot are labeled hypocrites. It just doesn't matter. I happen to believe that it just doesn't matter to God either.

I would really appreciate an answer from you on just who decides if a religion's theology is flawed ?

I'm being totally transparent here - and trying to be respectful as well. I have nothing "against" Hope or the Presbyterian church. I apologize again if anyone is feeling something different. I guess you hit the nail on the head with your last reply when you said "it just doesn't matter" - I couldn't disagree more. I respect everyone's right to attend and worship in their own way - absolutely. However, there are important differences between churches - that's why there are denominations in the Protestant church to begin with ... many of the differences are based on serious, core prinicples. I don't understand how anyone can join a church and ignore the fact that these defining principles exist and, furthermore, have no opinion. I think my previous posts are clear and compelling - I don't understand the need to try to assign some "hidden agenda" to them. I'm not upset or angry with anyone here - just having a nice intellectual discussion about spiritual matters !

all is good and God loves us all so what more could we want besides trying to be the best human being we can possibly be while on this earth ?

missjtiger Wrote:

80sTiger Wrote:

missjtiger Wrote:I'm kinda confused too about what this is really all about. It sounds like 80s doesn't agree with or dislikes what the Presbyterian church believes. That's good and fine and he has every right. That's why there are all kinds of religions/churches and doctrines. Like I said before, if it's coffee, bigness, being casual, a pastor's personality, music, or where a church is located...if that church helps open someone's eyes that the Lord Jesus Christ loves them more than they'll ever be able to comprehend and that they are never ever alone, then that's a good thing. Most people today could care less about the beliefs and doctrines. If they feel comfortable and leave that church a better person, even if it's just a tiny bit better, then I have a hard time believing God wouldn't approve. 80s, have you noticed that no one has asked where you go to church ? You know why ? because it doesn't matter one single bit. It doesn't matter if you go to a country church where they believe handling snakes is meaningful, or if you go to a church that believes that women never cut their hair or never ever wear long pants, or a church that has so many rules and regulations concerning drinking alcohol and who you are friends with that alot are labeled hypocrites. It just doesn't matter. I happen to believe that it just doesn't matter to God either.

I would really appreciate an answer from you on just who decides if a religion's theology is flawed ?

I'm being totally transparent here - and trying to be respectful as well. I have nothing "against" Hope or the Presbyterian church. I apologize again if anyone is feeling something different. I guess you hit the nail on the head with your last reply when you said "it just doesn't matter" - I couldn't disagree more. I respect everyone's right to attend and worship in their own way - absolutely. However, there are important differences between churches - that's why there are denominations in the Protestant church to begin with ... many of the differences are based on serious, core prinicples. I don't understand how anyone can join a church and ignore the fact that these defining principles exist and, furthermore, have no opinion. I think my previous posts are clear and compelling - I don't understand the need to try to assign some "hidden agenda" to them. I'm not upset or angry with anyone here - just having a nice intellectual discussion about spiritual matters !

all is good and God loves us all so what more could we want besides trying to be the best human being we can possibly be while on this earth ?

Was that a shot at me?

TigerInPrisonWithALaptop Wrote:

missjtiger Wrote:

80sTiger Wrote:

missjtiger Wrote:I'm kinda confused too about what this is really all about. It sounds like 80s doesn't agree with or dislikes what the Presbyterian church believes. That's good and fine and he has every right. That's why there are all kinds of religions/churches and doctrines. Like I said before, if it's coffee, bigness, being casual, a pastor's personality, music, or where a church is located...if that church helps open someone's eyes that the Lord Jesus Christ loves them more than they'll ever be able to comprehend and that they are never ever alone, then that's a good thing. Most people today could care less about the beliefs and doctrines. If they feel comfortable and leave that church a better person, even if it's just a tiny bit better, then I have a hard time believing God wouldn't approve. 80s, have you noticed that no one has asked where you go to church ? You know why ? because it doesn't matter one single bit. It doesn't matter if you go to a country church where they believe handling snakes is meaningful, or if you go to a church that believes that women never cut their hair or never ever wear long pants, or a church that has so many rules and regulations concerning drinking alcohol and who you are friends with that alot are labeled hypocrites. It just doesn't matter. I happen to believe that it just doesn't matter to God either.

I would really appreciate an answer from you on just who decides if a religion's theology is flawed ?

I'm being totally transparent here - and trying to be respectful as well. I have nothing "against" Hope or the Presbyterian church. I apologize again if anyone is feeling something different. I guess you hit the nail on the head with your last reply when you said "it just doesn't matter" - I couldn't disagree more. I respect everyone's right to attend and worship in their own way - absolutely. However, there are important differences between churches - that's why there are denominations in the Protestant church to begin with ... many of the differences are based on serious, core prinicples. I don't understand how anyone can join a church and ignore the fact that these defining principles exist and, furthermore, have no opinion. I think my previous posts are clear and compelling - I don't understand the need to try to assign some "hidden agenda" to them. I'm not upset or angry with anyone here - just having a nice intellectual discussion about spiritual matters !

all is good and God loves us all so what more could we want besides trying to be the best human being we can possibly be while on this earth ?

Was that a shot at me?

no....

missjtiger Wrote:

TigerInPrisonWithALaptop Wrote:

missjtiger Wrote:

80sTiger Wrote:

missjtiger Wrote:I'm kinda confused too about what this is really all about. It sounds like 80s doesn't agree with or dislikes what the Presbyterian church believes. That's good and fine and he has every right. That's why there are all kinds of religions/churches and doctrines. Like I said before, if it's coffee, bigness, being casual, a pastor's personality, music, or where a church is located...if that church helps open someone's eyes that the Lord Jesus Christ loves them more than they'll ever be able to comprehend and that they are never ever alone, then that's a good thing. Most people today could care less about the beliefs and doctrines. If they feel comfortable and leave that church a better person, even if it's just a tiny bit better, then I have a hard time believing God wouldn't approve. 80s, have you noticed that no one has asked where you go to church ? You know why ? because it doesn't matter one single bit. It doesn't matter if you go to a country church where they believe handling snakes is meaningful, or if you go to a church that believes that women never cut their hair or never ever wear long pants, or a church that has so many rules and regulations concerning drinking alcohol and who you are friends with that alot are labeled hypocrites. It just doesn't matter. I happen to believe that it just doesn't matter to God either.

I would really appreciate an answer from you on just who decides if a religion's theology is flawed ?

I'm being totally transparent here - and trying to be respectful as well. I have nothing "against" Hope or the Presbyterian church. I apologize again if anyone is feeling something different. I guess you hit the nail on the head with your last reply when you said "it just doesn't matter" - I couldn't disagree more. I respect everyone's right to attend and worship in their own way - absolutely. However, there are important differences between churches - that's why there are denominations in the Protestant church to begin with ... many of the differences are based on serious, core prinicples. I don't understand how anyone can join a church and ignore the fact that these defining principles exist and, furthermore, have no opinion. I think my previous posts are clear and compelling - I don't understand the need to try to assign some "hidden agenda" to them. I'm not upset or angry with anyone here - just having a nice intellectual discussion about spiritual matters !

all is good and God loves us all so what more could we want besides trying to be the best human being we can possibly be while on this earth ?

Was that a shot at me?

no....

You're plotting something.

i'm not going to attempt to speak for 80'stiger, but what i'm getting out of it is that he's just saying that many people don't do the digging to find out the full story behind the church they have chosen to attend, no matter where it is, as exhibited by the friends he has who have gone to hope in his first post.

many people who have done the diggging could still find that they don't agree with 100% of the tenets of the church they're going to, and that's something that no one can ridicule another for. i would be hard pressed to believe that everyone agrees 100% of every single facet of their church. i know i don't agree 100% with the church i grew up in, and i don't agree 100% with the church i currently attend...i'm currently struggling with deciding if the part i don't agree with is enough to "make it or break it" for me.

however, to not attempt to find out about it, that's where the "laziness" that he's talking about comes in. if you don't dig deeper to find out more about the place you choose to go & worship, then how can you grow spiritually?

who's to say that if someone dug deeper they wouldn't find a more deep-seeded appreciation for where they are, or for that matter, find another place that fits them better and had never even considered before?

supertiger Wrote:Which baptism method does Hope utilize. It has been my past experience that most pres. denominations use multiple methods.

since hope was started by 2nd, and is part of the evangelical presbyterian church as they are, I'm assuming they use infant baptism in a "sprinkling" fashion.

i've attended pcusa, pca, and epc church services, and all of those that i've seen use that method of baptism. hope that helps!

tigergreen Wrote:

supertiger Wrote:Which baptism method does Hope utilize. It has been my past experience that most pres. denominations use multiple methods.

since hope was started by 2nd, and is part of the evangelical presbyterian church as they are, I'm assuming they use infant baptism in a "sprinkling" fashion.

i've attended pcusa, pca, and epc church services, and all of those that i've seen use that method of baptism. hope that helps!

yes, Hope uses sprinkling/sign of the cross with holy water on infants and a surprising number of adults that for one reason or another were never baptised. That always makes me cry.

Do they have any pot luck suppers?

Interesting discussion which kind of somes up why I don't enjoy going to Hope. It feels like a bunch of people who just go there to say they have found Jesus. There is no "there" there and seems more like a feel good place than a real church with a congregation that takes their commitment seriously.

BuffaloT Wrote:Interesting discussion which kind of somes up why I don't enjoy going to Hope. It feels like a bunch of people who just go there to say they have found Jesus. There is no "there" there and seems more like a feel good place than a real church with a congregation that takes their commitment seriously.

I'm sorry you felt that way.

oldtiger Wrote:I'm confused, but that's OK.

Prior to joining Hope everyone is required to participate in a 6 night intro to Hope series, in which the distictives of the local church and the Evangelical Pres church are reviewed and discussed. Folks shouldn't walk into membership blind. So, I guess I really don't understand the basis of the discussion.

Have a good week Mr 80sTiger, again perhaps we can meet someday either on earth or in eternity. I'll bet you'll find a few of us Hope members there, and we'll be glad to see you.

what he is refering to is our Introducing Hope Series (IHS)
http://www.hopepres.com/default.aspx?pid=143

BuffaloT Wrote:Interesting discussion which kind of somes up why I don't enjoy going to Hope. It feels like a bunch of people who just go there to say they have found Jesus. There is no "there" there and seems more like a feel good place than a real church with a congregation that takes their commitment seriously.

Have you ever attended a service at Hope? This is a church trying to reach the unchurched people in the Memphis area. It is not for all, but Hope has its place and serves it main goal well.

I've known Craig for 30 years and your assumption is so far off and I respect your opinion but FYI - there is so much more than what your eyes have seen. I know the full parking lot every Sunday or the numbers of members along with the good things this church does on a daily basic puts it in a category of "not serious" - this my be a understatement on your part.

The problem here is not what you don't know but what you think you know that ain't so.

I still don't know if they have pot luck. I always thought it to be a nice fellowship kinda thing, but I'm just a good ole country boy.

I'm outta here. It's Monday beatdown time. Out for the night. Hope I wasn't offensive missj. I don't mean to be.

It's very obvious that Buffalo T doesn't really know anything about Hope's commitment to it's members, the community and the world. I find it sad that he thinks what he does. The urban missions http://www.hopepres.com/missions.aspx?pid=32 and our global outreach http://www.hopepres.com/default.aspx?pid=3 are extensive.

BuffaloT Wrote:Interesting discussion which kind of somes up why I don't enjoy going to Hope. It feels like a bunch of people who just go there to say they have found Jesus. There is no "there" there and seems more like a feel good place than a real church with a congregation that takes their commitment seriously.

Sorry you feel that way because that's just not the case at all. There's probably not much that could be said on a message board that would change your mind.

It is a place for real world people to find real world help for real world problems through Jesus Christ. There is a huge outreach for folks that aren't attending church and aren't plugged in to Jesus' grace. I know that outreach reached some of my family members when conventional church activities didn't.

Not sure how the reputation you descrribed came about because people's lives are being changed. I can't think of a church anywhere that's takes Jesus' saving grace more serioiusly than Hope even with coffee, guitars and jeans.....the church and members are working real hard to reach crowds that aren't going to church anywhere. How bad is that?

just my little .02 worth