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There is no Santa Claus
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #21
RE: There is no Santa Claus
nice addition, Blah... in many ways....

I don't want to turn this into a Rice discussion... but one of the things I really enjoyed about Rice, and didn't experience at other schools where I took a few courses (but don't want to imply that the school or all other schools are similar) was that Rice wasn't about learning... it was about experiencing... at least for me. The premise was... you were smart enough to get in here... we want you to be smarter than your teachers when you leave... by that, I mean you were encouraged to take what was known, and do something different with it... not to just try and "know" as much as possible... but to have an educational experience. Kids with 4.0s in high school aren't necessarily smart. They may just remember a lot of facts.

People who read papers know a lot... people who have experiences are smarter... at least generally
05-13-2008 04:27 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #22
RE: There is no Santa Claus
blah Wrote:I think one thing you didn't highlight, which is a huge problem with our school systems today, is that the ability to "think" is no longer taught or required in any class. Most classes give you a bunch of facts and ask you to repeat them back. Even math classes, which would be the easiest to tailor to logical thinking, usually move from topic to topic with little focus on past learnings or in forcing the student to determine how to go about figuring out a problem out. Instead the classes will give students a bunch of the same problems over and over.

Funny you should mention that. And something I should have remembered to include (though my post was long enough as is).

My students are mostly soph/junior business majors. They keep telling me that mine is the only class they have to "think" in--and some of them don't like it. I give open-book tests, which they don't really like because they can't "look up" the answer--my tests require thought. I've given the same test to three different classes--closed book in class to one, open book (but no notes) in class to a second, and open book open notes take-home to a third. The highest grades (top, bottom, mean, median, any way you slice it) came on the closed-book test, and the lowest on the anything-goes take-home. Whenever I give them an open-book test, instead of thinking they try to look up every answer. On a timed test, they run out of time. I'm pretty much sold on the open-book, no-notes, in-class format for future tests. For one thing, our students don't like to buy the books, but this is one way to get them to do it. And the book is actually a very good book, just very heavy-duty subject matter.
05-13-2008 04:44 PM
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jh Offline
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Post: #23
RE: There is no Santa Claus
Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:For one thing, our students don't like to buy the books, but this is one way to get them to do it. And the book is actually a very good book, just very heavy-duty subject matter.

You bastard! That's just downright evil.

I'm far from an educational expert, but could part of the reason why "thinking" isn't being taught/expected anymore is the increased use of multiple choice assessment tests used to judge both the students & the schools? I've heard a lot of complaints about teachers teaching to the TAAS (I think that's the right acronym for Texas), even at the expense of their core curriculum & subject matter. Is the drive for accountability hurting, rather than helping, the educational process (I tend to think so, if for no other reason than the government came up with it)?

And, Mach, I'd like to join everyone else in hoping that everything works out for Kyra.
05-13-2008 06:09 PM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #24
RE: There is no Santa Claus
nachoman91 Wrote:Term limits aren't necessary is we just stop putting these people back in office. You'll see alot of politicians straighten up and fly right if they see 40-50% of their comrades ousted from office every two years.

I join the rest of the board in hoping Machs daughter overcomes her medical problem.

The re-election rate is somewhere in the 90% range...You really have to be involved in a scandal to be kicked out of office.
05-13-2008 06:43 PM
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Machiavelli Offline
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Post: #25
RE: There is no Santa Claus
Quote:What ends up happening is Mach will spend an inordinate amount of time teaching the worst of his students (for proficiencies) while his brightest students are bored out of their minds because they understood the material a month ago. It would be like a track coach spending all of his coaching time working with his slowest runners and next to ignoring his most talented & fastest kids.

There was a law passed in 1973 that any child had to be out in the least restrictive environment. The double dip came when "Politicians" decided to require all students to take college prep courses to compete in a global economy. It all sounds good in theory but in practice it dumbs down the curriculum. Special Ed teacher's love it because their kids are "mainstreamed". They have 1/1oth of the workload they had before. It's a major problem. I'm waiting for "talented and fast kid's above" to sue a school district or maybe you could sue the parents of the kid's who disrupt the class 95% of the time. I truly mean this 95% of the kid's I have are great kids and STRIVE for discipline. They want to know their barriers. It's the 5-10% of the dirtbags who can't conform that gum up the works. Just my 2 cents.
05-13-2008 07:30 PM
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jh Offline
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Post: #26
RE: There is no Santa Claus
Machiavelli Wrote:I truly mean this 95% of the kid's I have are great kids and STRIVE for discipline. They want to know their barriers. It's the 5-10% of the dirtbags who can't conform that gum up the works. Just my 2 cents.

I think this is one of the problems with making education a "right". Once something is elevated to the status of a right, it's hard to take it away from someone. I would have no problem with kicking the troublemakers out of school, permanently. It doesn't seem like they get anything out of it & by disrupting the class they drag down everyone else. If there were any real consequences for the troublemakers, it might cut down on their numbers as well.
05-13-2008 08:15 PM
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blah Offline
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Post: #27
RE: There is no Santa Claus
Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:
blah Wrote:I think one thing you didn't highlight, which is a huge problem with our school systems today, is that the ability to "think" is no longer taught or required in any class. Most classes give you a bunch of facts and ask you to repeat them back. Even math classes, which would be the easiest to tailor to logical thinking, usually move from topic to topic with little focus on past learnings or in forcing the student to determine how to go about figuring out a problem out. Instead the classes will give students a bunch of the same problems over and over.

Funny you should mention that. And something I should have remembered to include (though my post was long enough as is).

My students are mostly soph/junior business majors. They keep telling me that mine is the only class they have to "think" in--and some of them don't like it. I give open-book tests, which they don't really like because they can't "look up" the answer--my tests require thought. I've given the same test to three different classes--closed book in class to one, open book (but no notes) in class to a second, and open book open notes take-home to a third. The highest grades (top, bottom, mean, median, any way you slice it) came on the closed-book test, and the lowest on the anything-goes take-home. Whenever I give them an open-book test, instead of thinking they try to look up every answer. On a timed test, they run out of time. I'm pretty much sold on the open-book, no-notes, in-class format for future tests. For one thing, our students don't like to buy the books, but this is one way to get them to do it. And the book is actually a very good book, just very heavy-duty subject matter.

That's great. I don't get to teach, but I like to ask those open ended, "thinking" type questions when I interview someone. Most give you this blank stare, a few answer and a few start crying....Good times.
05-13-2008 09:20 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #28
RE: There is no Santa Claus
jh Wrote:You bastard! That's just downright evil.

I'm far from an educational expert, but could part of the reason why "thinking" isn't being taught/expected anymore is the increased use of multiple choice assessment tests used to judge both the students & the schools? I've heard a lot of complaints about teachers teaching to the TAAS (I think that's the right acronym for Texas), even at the expense of their core curriculum & subject matter. Is the drive for accountability hurting, rather than helping, the educational process (I tend to think so, if for no other reason than the government came up with it)?

Actually most of my test questions are multiple-choice. But if you give them five choices with A, B, and C being substantive statements, and D being "all of the above" or "A and B but not C" and E is "none of the above" or "B and C but not A", you can force them to do quite a bit of thinking. I do give one essay question on each test, based on ethical analysis of a hypothetical (but realistic) scenario.

The real problem with TASS/TAKS is that the state department of education had one bureaucracy already entrenched to develop curriculum, and when TASS/TAKS came along they created a second bureaucracy to develop the test. Now if the two bureaucracies talked to each other and coordinated things, somebody might get the idea that they were redundant and we only needed one of them. And like good bureaucrats everywhere, they are far more interested in preserving their own jobs than they are in actually doing anything to help education. So the curriculum and the test are developed by two independent bureaucracies who don't talk to each other. So the test ends up not looking like the curriculum, and vice versa. Now if you are a teacher you are supposed to teach the curriculum, but it's the test that can get your @$$ fired if your students flunk it. So which one do you teach? Easy decision if you like getting a paycheck.

Why does the free market work better than government? IMO it's because the expectation that government can solve problems starts with the assumption that governement programs will employ people who are too altruistic to engage in the kind of counterproductive self-promoting activities described above. The free market is based on the concept that we are alll selfish, and the more efficient approach is the one that turns self-interest into the most good for the community as a whole, and nobody has yet found a tool better than the profit motive for aligning the two.

I'll believe that government can solve problems when you show me a way to take self-interest out of the minds of bureaucrats. I've worked in and around government for nearly 40 years, I get two government paychecks today, and I've not yet seen that happen. Not once. I'd like to think that I'm an exception to the rule, but deep down I really know that's my ego talking--and in all likelihood kidding myself.
05-13-2008 09:43 PM
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Machiavelli Offline
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Post: #29
RE: There is no Santa Claus
I like this owl 69/70/75 guy.
05-13-2008 10:01 PM
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Machiavelli Offline
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Post: #30
RE: There is no Santa Claus
Quote:Most give you this blank stare, a few answer and a few start crying....Good times.


Haaah LAR ious........ actual audible chuckle aac.
05-13-2008 10:03 PM
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jh Offline
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Post: #31
RE: There is no Santa Claus
Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:The real problem with TASS/TAKS is that the state department of education had one bureaucracy already entrenched to develop curriculum, and when TASS/TAKS came along they created a second bureaucracy to develop the test. Now if the two bureaucracies talked to each other and coordinated things, somebody might get the idea that they were redundant and we only needed one of them. And like good bureaucrats everywhere, they are far more interested in preserving their own jobs than they are in actually doing anything to help education. So the curriculum and the test are developed by two independent bureaucracies who don't talk to each other. So the test ends up not looking like the curriculum, and vice versa. Now if you are a teacher you are supposed to teach the curriculum, but it's the test that can get your @$$ fired if your students flunk it. So which one do you teach? Easy decision if you like getting a paycheck.

Please tell me you are joking (although I'm sure you aren't). That just makes me so sad.
05-13-2008 11:02 PM
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Machiavelli Offline
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Post: #32
RE: There is no Santa Claus
True Story..


In 2005ish (give or take a year) the kid's in Ohio had to pass a science OGT (Ohio Graduation Test) for the first time. We always had 9th grade proficiencies before. The first year they took the test, the standards weren't finalized for the test until Jan. of that year. I remember downloading the standards in Feb. to try and prepare a kid for a March test. BTW the standards change all the freakin' time. In 15 years I have had 4 major overhauls. Totally different subject matter. It seems to me it goes in cycles of integrating chemistry, bio, and geo to seperating the three. So kid's get caught up in the transition years and they may miss some things every time we switch. I'm sure all professions have their own horror stories, but the people on this board have more common sense than the people making the decisions in Columbus.
05-14-2008 08:49 AM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #33
RE: There is no Santa Claus
[quoteWhy does the free market work better than government? IMO it's because the expectation that government can solve problems starts with the assumption that governement programs will employ people who are too altruistic to engage in the kind of counterproductive self-promoting activities described above. The free market is based on the concept that we are alll selfish, and the more efficient approach is the one that turns self-interest into the most good for the community as a whole, and nobody has yet found a tool better than the profit motive for aligning the two.

I'll believe that government can solve problems when you show me a way to take self-interest out of the minds of bureaucrats. I've worked in and around government for nearly 40 years, I get two government paychecks today, and I've not yet seen that happen. Not once. I'd like to think that I'm an exception to the rule, but deep down I really know that's my ego talking--and in all likelihood kidding myself.
[/quote]

Be carefull with that type of anti-statist propaganda on this board03-shhhh You better be prepared to do battle cause there are several here that think the sun only rises and sets with the permission of the government.05-stirthepot

Im with you....I have absolutely NO use for government in any fashion and firmly believe that a total free market society would be one of peace and prosperity.
(This post was last modified: 05-14-2008 09:56 PM by Fo Shizzle.)
05-14-2008 09:55 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #34
RE: There is no Santa Claus
Fo Shizzle Wrote:Be carefull with that type of anti-statist propaganda on this board03-shhhh You better be prepared to do battle cause there are several here that think the sun only rises and sets with the permission of the government.05-stirthepot

Im with you....I have absolutely NO use for government in any fashion and firmly believe that a total free market society would be one of peace and prosperity.

I don't go quite as far as you do. There are some things that government does well, and those should remain government functions. National defense is probably the most obvious example.

What really concerns me is that we've created this vast conglomeration of unaccountable bureaucracies with powers that in many cases are astounding. Congress passes a law, the president signs it, and they congratulate themselves for solving a problem when all they've really done is create a new, expensive, and unwieldy agency which will be staffed with people who are more interested in saving their jobs than in solving the problem. And of course, if the problem did get solved, there would be no further need for their agency or their jobs. You can connect the dots from there.
05-15-2008 03:11 AM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #35
RE: There is no Santa Claus
Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:
Fo Shizzle Wrote:Be carefull with that type of anti-statist propaganda on this board03-shhhh You better be prepared to do battle cause there are several here that think the sun only rises and sets with the permission of the government.05-stirthepot

Im with you....I have absolutely NO use for government in any fashion and firmly believe that a total free market society would be one of peace and prosperity.

I don't go quite as far as you do. There are some things that government does well, and those should remain government functions. National defense is probably the most obvious example.

What really concerns me is that we've created this vast conglomeration of unaccountable bureaucracies with powers that in many cases are astounding. Congress passes a law, the president signs it, and they congratulate themselves for solving a problem when all they've really done is create a new, expensive, and unwieldy agency which will be staffed with people who are more interested in saving their jobs than in solving the problem. And of course, if the problem did get solved, there would be no further need for their agency or their jobs. You can connect the dots from there.

Government does very little well....It conducted a war on poverty...FAILED.....It conducted a war on drugs....FAILED...It conducts a war on Terrorism...FAILED. It decided to become the worlds peacekeeper...FAILED... Almost every action of governmental intervention produces the opposite effect of its goals.
05-15-2008 02:16 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #36
RE: There is no Santa Claus
Fo Shizzle Wrote:Government does very little well....It conducted a war on poverty...FAILED.....It conducted a war on drugs....FAILED...It conducts a war on Terrorism...FAILED. It decided to become the worlds peacekeeper...FAILED... Almost every action of governmental intervention produces the opposite effect of its goals.

Remember, if you reach your goal, the problem goes away and you lose your job. So a good bureaucrat NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER allows the goal to be met.
05-15-2008 06:55 PM
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