Hey guys I like follow expansion stuff around college football and the one thing I dont understand is what is the big problem with 17 teams? Is it really that much of an inconvenience to the league for a final four contender and a decent fb team with good attendance? Not to mention a nice bowl game? I dont see what the big hang up is? Congrats on your success after the last round of expansion.

Uneven voting rights between members (football and basketball only) and watering down of an already unbalanced basketball schedule.

the house of cards would come crashing down, and Providence and friends ain't lettin that happen.

The basketball schools can't handle being a minority no matter how good it would be for the conference and the added stability it would create.

The best way to fix the Big East would be to go with 2 divisions and then add Memphis and St Louis. That add's two more major markets for the TV package and brings in one football and one midwest Catholic school.
Football (BCS division)
Syracuse
UConn
Rutgers
Pitt
UC
UL
WV
South Florida
Memphis

non-BCS division
Notre Dame
Georgetown
St John's
Villanova
Providence
Seton Hall
Depaul
Marquette
St Louis

Oh boy, another expansion or split thread!

It makes too much sense for the Big East to do. Instead our football programs are going to have to push the issue and force the basketball schools to bend.
Some one mentioned that we need 12 to approve an expansion. Like I've said before, I believe Marquette, Depaul and Notre Dame will side with the football schools. Marquette and Depaul have history with Memphis and Notre Dame won't be pressured to play the other Big East schools in football as much.
That leaves 5 other programs that the football schools will have to find one to support Memphis. I believe they'll find that support in Seton Hall or Providence. Small schools in small markets that need the big money a 17 team Big East would guarantee.
Georgetown, Villanova and St. Johns all believe their markets mean too much to the Big East so they'll oppose a ninth football member.
That's how I believe it will all shake-out. Just my opinion but I wouldn't be suprised to see something happen as soon as this summer.
CJ

what tangible things have you seen to even think that the presidents are talking about it, let alone condidering doing it? What I've seen is nothing. Except message board fodder. But who knows.

TIGER-PAUL Wrote:what tangible things have you seen to even think that the presidents are talking about it, let alone condidering doing it? What I've seen is nothing. Except message board fodder. But who knows.

I haven't seen anything from the presidents. That isn't unusual because I doubt that the presidents would be involved this early in the process. What I have read seen are comments from Mikey T and the Coach or AD of each of the Big East football schools. The handwriting is on the wall. Something has to be done because it is becoming increasing difficult for Big East schools to schedule 5 OOC games every year.
Couple our present situation with comments from RC Johnson in Memphis about the Big East and rumours about FedEx brokering a deal one would have to believe something is going on.
Some one once said that where there's smoke, there's fire. We have seen the smoke for months now. Mike T has already said that expansion is discussed in EVERY meeting. To this point he has always said no viable programs are available. Let's wait and see what he says after the upcoming Big East meetings.
CJ

16 is bad enough...

What ever the fb schools do I hope they keep Nova,G'town, and St. Johns on board. Those markets are really the only advntage the catholic schools have. The Big East football school can retain there huge contract with these 3 on board IMO.

CardinalJim Wrote:

TIGER-PAUL Wrote:what tangible things have you seen to even think that the presidents are talking about it, let alone condidering doing it? What I've seen is nothing. Except message board fodder. But who knows.

I haven't seen anything from the presidents. That isn't unusual because I doubt that the presidents would be involved this early in the process. What I have read seen are comments from Mikey T and the Coach or AD of each of the Big East football schools. The handwriting is on the wall. Something has to be done because it is becoming increasing difficult for Big East schools to schedule 5 OOC games every year.
Couple our present situation with comments from RC Johnson in Memphis about the Big East and rumours about FedEx brokering a deal one would have to believe something is going on.
Some one once said that where there's smoke, there's fire. We have seen the smoke for months now. Mike T has already said that expansion is discussed in EVERY meeting. To this point he has always said no viable programs are available. Let's wait and see what he says after the upcoming Big East meetings.
CJ

I can only go on what happened with the WAC teams that left to form the MWC, but supposedly the ADs, while not happy with the constant shifting of division in the conference, were not aware of talks for the breakaway eight to leave to form the MWC.

Remember that the WAC-16 though had 16 full members playing football and other sports, unlike the Big East where there is the split between the FBS schools and those who play at the FCS level or not at all.

mattsarz Wrote:I can only go on what happened with the WAC teams that left to form the MWC, but supposedly the ADs, while not happy with the constant shifting of division in the conference, were not aware of talks for the breakaway eight to leave to form the MWC.

Remember that the WAC-16 though had 16 full members playing football and other sports, unlike the Big East where there is the split between the FBS schools and those who play at the FCS level or not at all.

Matt,
I have read everything I can find on the WAC / MWC split and have seen nothing that says who met prior to the announcement of the MWC being formed on May 26,1998 by the Presidents of the 8 breakaway schools. One would think that the AD's would have had to had some role in making something like this happen.
You do raise an interesting point that it was the size of the conference that caused the split of the WAC. That and the fact the conference stretched across 5 time zones.
CJ

PusherT Wrote:What ever the fb schools do I hope they keep Nova,G'town, and St. Johns on board. Those markets are really the only advntage the catholic schools have. The Big East football school can retain there huge contract with these 3 on board IMO.

St. John's is superfluous.

So are Villanova and Georgetown, unless they decide to step up to Division 1A. The Beast should be an all-sports conference, and both schools would reap tremendous benefits from upgrading to Division 1A in a BCS (revenue sharing) conference. Both could use pro stadiums in the respective cities, although Villanova could have scheduling conflicts with Temple, and Temple has priority. But those could be worked around in time.

I don't know why there's such reluctance to stepping up in class at both schools. But there is.

CardinalJim Wrote:

mattsarz Wrote:I can only go on what happened with the WAC teams that left to form the MWC, but supposedly the ADs, while not happy with the constant shifting of division in the conference, were not aware of talks for the breakaway eight to leave to form the MWC.

Remember that the WAC-16 though had 16 full members playing football and other sports, unlike the Big East where there is the split between the FBS schools and those who play at the FCS level or not at all.

Matt,
I have read everything I can find on the WAC / MWC split and have seen nothing that says who met prior to the announcement of the MWC being formed on May 26,1998 by the Presidents of the 8 breakaway schools. One would think that the AD's would have had to had some role in making something like this happen.
You do raise an interesting point that it was the size of the conference that caused the split of the WAC. That and the fact the conference stretched across 5 time zones.
CJ

MWC fans can clear me up but I believe Matt is right. That's why there is bad blood with a lot of MWC, WAC and now C-USA schools (like Rice, Tulsa and UTEP).

CatsClaw Wrote:

CardinalJim Wrote:

mattsarz Wrote:I can only go on what happened with the WAC teams that left to form the MWC, but supposedly the ADs, while not happy with the constant shifting of division in the conference, were not aware of talks for the breakaway eight to leave to form the MWC.

Remember that the WAC-16 though had 16 full members playing football and other sports, unlike the Big East where there is the split between the FBS schools and those who play at the FCS level or not at all.

Matt,
I have read everything I can find on the WAC / MWC split and have seen nothing that says who met prior to the announcement of the MWC being formed on May 26,1998 by the Presidents of the 8 breakaway schools. One would think that the AD's would have had to had some role in making something like this happen.
You do raise an interesting point that it was the size of the conference that caused the split of the WAC. That and the fact the conference stretched across 5 time zones.
CJ

MWC fans can clear me up but I believe Matt is right. That's why there is bad blood with a lot of MWC, WAC and now C-USA schools (like Rice, Tulsa and UTEP).

Im sure the other wac presidents wernt aware much the same way the SWC presidents were blindsided. You really cant do it any other way? Tell them in advance you are planing to leave would be a lawyer fest and all kinds of problems. I don think there is bad blood still. Do cusa schools blame Louisville for leaving? You cant b/c they would do the same thing.

Back to the WAC 16..I was ridiculous. 4 quadrants..5 time zones I hated it. I like most of the teams but it was just too much.

BYUcoog Wrote:Hey guys I like follow expansion stuff around college football and the one thing I dont understand is what is the big problem with 17 teams? Is it really that much of an inconvenience to the league for a final four contender and a decent fb team with good attendance? Not to mention a nice bowl game? I dont see what the big hang up is? Congrats on your success after the last round of expansion.

Nothing each team play can each team and all the once, alternating home and home every other year. It also solves the football problem by letting Memphis in. And you get to schedule 12 OOC games.

BYUcoog Wrote:

CatsClaw Wrote:

CardinalJim Wrote:

mattsarz Wrote:I can only go on what happened with the WAC teams that left to form the MWC, but supposedly the ADs, while not happy with the constant shifting of division in the conference, were not aware of talks for the breakaway eight to leave to form the MWC.

Remember that the WAC-16 though had 16 full members playing football and other sports, unlike the Big East where there is the split between the FBS schools and those who play at the FCS level or not at all.

Matt,
I have read everything I can find on the WAC / MWC split and have seen nothing that says who met prior to the announcement of the MWC being formed on May 26,1998 by the Presidents of the 8 breakaway schools. One would think that the AD's would have had to had some role in making something like this happen.
You do raise an interesting point that it was the size of the conference that caused the split of the WAC. That and the fact the conference stretched across 5 time zones.
CJ

MWC fans can clear me up but I believe Matt is right. That's why there is bad blood with a lot of MWC, WAC and now C-USA schools (like Rice, Tulsa and UTEP).

Im sure the other wac presidents wernt aware much the same way the SWC presidents were blindsided. You really cant do it any other way? Tell them in advance you are planing to leave would be a lawyer fest and all kinds of problems. I don think there is bad blood still. Do cusa schools blame Louisville for leaving? You cant b/c they would do the same thing.

Back to the WAC 16..I was ridiculous. 4 quadrants..5 time zones I hated it. I like most of the teams but it was just too much.

I think the SWC was different from the WAC. The SWC knew it was a dying league and the Big 8 was upfront about attempting a merger. From several published accounts, it was a free-for-all between the SWC schools. I don't think TCU, Houston, Rice and SMU were blindsided, but were disappointed.

From the accounts of the WAC newspaper reports (many of which are still online and are an interesting read), there was definitely tension about the scheduling. Air Force strongly considered leaving the conference if they were not scheduled with CSU, Wyoming and New Mexico. The AFA AD mentioned it in articles, but as we know, he can mention it all he wants, but the powers that be at the top make the call.

When the five school presidents met (BYU, CSU, AFA, WYO, UofU) and later brought on UNM, UNLV and SDSU, supposedly no one had a clue that those presidents would break off. I thought I remember reading that at the conference meetings an ADs meeting occurred and no one said anything about breaking away until those same schools released press statements the next day. Supposedly WAC commissioner Karl Benson walked into the 1st session of meetings that day and heard from others there that the schools had announced their withdrawal.

There were also bumblings at the presidential level. The WAC was incorporated, a move that was pursued by the former SWC schools because the SWC was not incorporated and no financial penalties existed for the four schools that left for the Big 12. Also, supposedly three of the eight presidents never sought out legal counsel with respect to the penalties, etc., for leaving the WAC and made statements, I believe in public, that were found to be against the rules set forth in the WAC charter.

CardinalJim Wrote:It makes too much sense for the Big East to do. Instead our football programs are going to have to push the issue and force the basketball schools to bend.
Some one mentioned that we need 12 to approve an expansion. Like I've said before, I believe Marquette, Depaul and Notre Dame will side with the football schools. Marquette and Depaul have history with Memphis and Notre Dame won't be pressured to play the other Big East schools in football as much.
That leaves 5 other programs that the football schools will have to find one to support Memphis. I believe they'll find that support in Seton Hall or Providence. Small schools in small markets that need the big money a 17 team Big East would guarantee.
Georgetown, Villanova and St. Johns all believe their markets mean too much to the Big East so they'll oppose a ninth football member.
That's how I believe it will all shake-out. Just my opinion but I wouldn't be suprised to see something happen as soon as this summer.
CJ

But with a 17-team league, any big money turns into small money once split 17 ways. And if it's bowl and other football-specific revenue, then Providence sees none of it.

rferry Wrote:But with a 17-team league, any big money turns into small money once split 17 ways. And if it's bowl and other football-specific revenue, then Providence sees none of it.

The football-specific bowl revenue is currently $21,888,675, or if split 8 ways evenly, $2,736,084 each.

Memphis with the Liberty Bowl would have made the league bowl revenue $23,485,675, split 9 ways, $2,609,519.

Making a total loss in revenue of $126,565 per team.

Next year's TV contract is supposedly worth $15 million. Split between 8 teams evenly, that is $1.875 million. Split between 9 teams evenly, that is $1.667 million.

A loss of $208,000 per team.

Between the two, that is a loss of approximately $335K.

Now throw out the $200-250K most BE football teams are paying a Division FCS team to come to their place to play for a fifth non-conference game and the loss in football-specific revenue appears to be basically between $85-135K.

That is much less than the $500K loss in ticket revenues that you thought Georgetown could easily do without in the case of a split.

And in terms of athletic dollars, all of the football schools can more readily absorb such a loss than can Georgetown (one of the better bb schools).

As for the bb schools, approximately $28 million divided 16 ways is $1.75 million and divided 17 ways is $1.64 million.

The NCAA units of $19,391,604 divided 16 ways is $1.21 million whereas divided 17 ways is $1.14 million.

That is a total loss for all of the BE schools of $170K.

Seems like a small price to pay to keep those ticket sales high and not to lose a huge proportion of the bb TV contract due to a split.

16 or 17? A clusterf#@% is still a clusterf#@%.

Either the loss in revenue of even $170K (or $255-305K for the football schools) is too much for the BE teams to absorb (which seems preposterous to me) or something else is preventing consideration of expansion to 17.

Cheers,
Neil

P.S., I'm counting on you to check the math above, since I am doing this early Saturday morning after being out to a party last night.