rferry Wrote:BTW, whoever mentioned a 8-8 split is necessary. That's not necessarily true. Each new conference only need retain 6 stable members for an uninterrupted berth to the NCAAs. They must add 2 new additional members though.
Thus opens the door for Syracuse or UConn to reject a football split. Or basketball to bounce back.

The next move the Big East makes is the first in a chain of many huge changes. The conference is strained as it is. Too many opposing interests. Kicking out Notre Dame isn't a good idea. That's why it's only been coaches that have mentioned the need for 9th football school, and then only in abstract terms. No one wants to open up pandora's box.

Wrong, it was necessary. That's why Syracuse called Cincinnati asking for a split. So they can keep it 8-8. If Cincinnati and Louisville were added and nobody else the conference would have split back in 2003.

TerryD Wrote:Bit:

Go to Rock's House at NDNation.com

It may surprise you to find a large number of ND alumni and fans agree.

The prevailing views are about half divided between folks who think ND should do home and home series only with BE teams and half who think the Irish shouldn't play BE teams at all.

Not many like the Kevin White idea of home and neutral only.

It's nice to know Terry. Notre Dame is alienating the rest of the college football world with their stance on independence. It's based on they should be free to do to other schools whatever is in their best interest. That's not a good way to make friends and influence people in the information age. I don't care how much money you can bring to the table.

Public opinion will force change eventually... and it will all come back to haunt them.

ND is officially allotted 5,000 tickets when it plays at Heinz Field, I believe.

Quite a few ND fans buy Pitt season ticket packages to be able to have tickets for that game.

TerryD Wrote:There is now some indications that ND and Alabama talks are heating up about a series to take the place of the proposed Rutgers games on ND's future schedules.

I assume these will be home and home games, but ND vs. Alabama at the Sugar Bowl or the Georgia Dome would be good ideas.

Good, maybe Notre Dame can run off and join the SEC.

cuseroc Wrote:The fb schools most definitly could have left the bb schools behind. In fact, it has been documented on this site with the minutes of those meetings back then that the fb schools did indeed decide to leave and start a new league. This was before BC was invited to the Acc. Once they convened again, somehow the fb schools had decided to stay aligned with the bb schools. This was the reason that BC gave the Acc a call and asked to get in. They were upset that the league was going to stay together. The Syracuse A.D. at the time decided that he would retire if the league stayed together, and he did just that. I dont know what all of the reasons were for the league staying together, but folks that know a whole lot more about the intimate details than us bunch of message board posters, thought that that they could have made a go of it by splitting at one point. That to me says that they could have split. Whether they were willing to deal with the uncertainties, surrounding a split or not is another question.

The 6 remaiming FB schools wanted a split, the 5 remaining BB schools did not. Notre Dame was the swing vote.

Had ND sided with the FB schools, the majority would have ruled. The FB schools would have added Cinci and Louisville and we would have had a nice 8 team FB/9 team BB league.

When ND sided with the BB schools, it resulted in a 6-6 deadlock, preventing a split. According to the BE charter, the league can only be dissolved by majority vote.

Hence the reason that Marquette and Depaul had to be added when Cinci & Louisville came on board, to maintain the balance of power.

Ironically, if ND had never been invited to join the BE in 1995, the FB schools would have had the majority in 2003.

TerryD Wrote:Bit:

Go to Rock's House at NDNation.com

It may surprise you to find a large number of ND alumni and fans agree.

The prevailing views are about half divided between folks who think ND should do home and home series only with BE teams and half who think the Irish shouldn't play BE teams at all.

Believe ND fans are just following their AD's wishes...as there is almost zero movement to play home-home series with all Big East Members...the same members of a conference that ND is a member of.

That says it all right there.

TerryD Wrote:ND is officially allotted 5,000 tickets when it plays at Heinz Field, I believe.

Quite a few ND fans buy Pitt season ticket packages to be able to have tickets for that game.

I wonder what the going price on eBay is for the other game tickets. If they play it right, they can make a nice profit on the season ticket purchase.

TerryD Wrote:ND is officially allotted 5,000 tickets when it plays at Heinz Field, I believe.

Quite a few ND fans buy Pitt season ticket packages to be able to have tickets for that game.

Plus...Pitt is one of the few road teams that ND plays that doesn't come close to selling out their stadium/season tix...so there are plenty of available single game/mini-game packages that ND fans pick up in Pitt...which is why there are so many ND fans at that game.

That's why a road game "at Pitt" can have tons of ND fans...vs a road game at RU (where RU would sell out their season tix allotments) would not.

TexanMark Wrote:

bitcruncher Wrote:Thank God you have no input in the decision.

I have a grasp of reality though...you cut Notre Dame loose...you lose one of our best academic institutions and a national TV draw.

What good is a national tv draw if they are not playing other Big East teams in football?

Big East basketball is more than good enough without Notre Dame to get national tv games.

it could be worse. They could sign a 10yr deal with bc to play in new england. The point is they're going to play someone there or jersey.

cuseroc Wrote:I am not arguing the fact whether the split BE would be successful or not, but I am telling you that the fb schools thought enough of the idea of leaving the bb schools enough that they had decided to do just that.
But I would say that a BE league with its present fb members, plus a Memphis or ECU would have been every bit as viable as a 9 team Acc, perhaps even moreso. That league as a bb conference would still be every bit as good as the present Acc basketball league, imo.

That's hardly a ringing endorsement. That 9-team ACC had one great team and saw fit to expand. Meanwhile the 12-team ACC only gets 4 bids in. A Big East football conference fearing losing its BCS bid and getting only 3 tourney bids isn't anyone's idea of a strong league.
I think you can see why the football members gave up on it as soon as it was proposed. And why no such proposal has come forth since. Even on the issue of a 9th football / 17th member, talk has been quiet among officials. Only a few coaches have mentioned anything and only abstractly. They know that a Big East football league would not be as successful as the current working agreement.

CatsClaw Wrote:

rferry Wrote:

Jose_Jalapeno_on_a_Stick Wrote:

rferry Wrote:You do realize that without Notre Dame, thought of programs like Cincinnati, Louisville, DePaul and Marquette would have been rejected immediately by the northeastern bloc.

Who the hell else was the league going to invite? The BE was about to implode in 2003.

It's not an issue of who, but why, how and where. Big East football was desperate to retain its status and would've admitted anyone who would be accepted by the basketball schools. It didn't say much for L'ville and Cincy's fans among private schools, that even with stellar basketball programs, that DePaul and Marquette also had to be added. When you look at the changes that did happen, westward expansion and Catholic schools, were inspired by Notre Dame's membership in the league. Notre Dame holds significant say in the conference because they represented the interests of the non-football schools and offers a huge bargaining chip for the Big East football schools.

Clearly you don't have a clue what you're talking about. Depaul and Marquette were added to keep the balance of power in the Big East.

Hello. I just said that. The point was that despite how great sense Louisville and Cincinnati were, many in the conference weren't willing to accept them without condition. Hence, the expansion had to be about basketball and the Chicago market as well.

CatsClaw Wrote:Bullcrap. Louisville was in the Big East WITHOUT Notre Dame, and Notre Dame was one of the schools originally blocking Cincinnati from getting into the Big East. UC got into the Big East despite Notre Dame not because of them.

Without a successful 10-year run with Notre Dame, the Big East would not have expanded west as willing as they did. The private non-football schools would have to be dragged kicking and screaming to expand to the west, for a football decision to add a public. However great Louisville and Cincy's basketball programs are, that's asking too much from the likes of Providence and St. John's.

CatsClaw Wrote:

rferry Wrote:BTW, whoever mentioned a 8-8 split is necessary. That's not necessarily true. Each new conference only need retain 6 stable members for an uninterrupted berth to the NCAAs. They must add 2 new additional members though.
Thus opens the door for Syracuse or UConn to reject a football split. Or basketball to bounce back.
The next move the Big East makes is the first in a chain of many huge changes. The conference is strained as it is. Too many opposing interests. Kicking out Notre Dame isn't a good idea. That's why it's only been coaches that have mentioned the need for 9th football school, and then only in abstract terms. No one wants to open up pandora's box.

Wrong, it was necessary. That's why Syracuse called Cincinnati asking for a split. So they can keep it 8-8. If Cincinnati and Louisville were added and nobody else the conference would have split back in 2003.

It IS not not necessary. I suggest you to check the NCAA manual. For conferences to retain their auto-bid to NCAA championships, they must retain 6 members after the split. However, for the new conferences to function correctly, they would need 8 or more members. The 2 additional members need not come from the old Big East. They can be any established D1 at all.

rferry Wrote:It IS not not necessary. I suggest you to check the NCAA manual. For conferences to retain their auto-bid to NCAA championships, they must retain 6 members after the split. However, for the new conferences to function correctly, they would need 8 or more members. The 2 additional members need not come from the old Big East. They can be any established D1 at all.

If it would have been:

SU
BC
UConn
RU
WVU
Pitt

...along with UC/UL, that makes SIX.

Geez, if the overbloated 16 team BE comglammeration, with ND, is so great, why isn't your Maryland school petitioning for membership??

Rferry wrote:

Quote:A Big East football conference fearing losing its BCS bid and getting only 3 tourney bids isn't anyone's idea of a strong league.

Syracuse, Pitt, Uconn, WV, Louisville, Rutgers, USF, Cincy and Memphis.

Your telling me you only see 3 ncaa tourney bids out of this league?Simply WOW!

There were 5 ncaa bids from this group just this past season. And Cincy and Cuse were still down. In a bad year, I dont see any less than 4 ncaa bids from this group. In a good year, there could be as many as 7.

bearcatfan Wrote:

TexanMark Wrote:

bitcruncher Wrote:Thank God you have no input in the decision.

I have a grasp of reality though...you cut Notre Dame loose...you lose one of our best academic institutions and a national TV draw.

What good is a national tv draw if they are not playing other Big East teams in football?

Big East basketball is more than good enough without Notre Dame to get national tv games.

Well when they play Big East teams in Football the games are either on: NBC, ABC or ESPN. Notre Dame is an independent in Football with a an agreement to play some Big East teams. Would I want home and homes? Sure but Notre Dame can ask and get better. If it comes back to bite them then so be it...but getting in a huff is great for bulletin boards but it isn't addressing market realities.

Notre Dame is considered a great home draw for Syracuse in basketball just behind: UConn and Georgetown

The ignorance of Big East history in this thread is astonishing. It might be a good idea to refrain from commenting on things people know absolutely nothing about.

The reason the Big East is now at 8/8, and must always have an even number of members on each side as long as the current configuration is maintained, is due to the seeds of distrust caused by the ACC raid. Never will the Catholic basketball schools allow themselves to become a voting minority in the league because the ACC raid showed them how their futures could be negatively harmed if they are not careful.

The addition of DePaul and Marquette alongside Cincinnati, Louisville, and eventually South Florida brought quality teams into the league, provided a presence in important markets, and set the league up well for a split - if needed - in the future. In 2003, no one was certain how strong the new football alignment would be, so it was deemed necessary to stay together from 2005-10 to see how the hybrid developed.

The other reason an 8/8 split was needed was not because of basketball. It was because of football. NCAA rules say that you only need six teams together for five years to earn an automatic bid in basketball. Another rule, however, says that you must have eight teams in order to be recognized as a Division I-A (FBS) football league by the NCAA. That is a critical part of the reason we are at 8/8. Knowledge is power.

The football league is way ahead of schedule now and all those uncertainties are gone. What might prevent a split is the new television contracts, best in league history, which are set to run until in 2013 and the fact that there is no agreement on who the best ninth member would be for the football side. Central Florida, Memphis, and East Carolina all have boosters and split the votes so no one has enough support.

The idea of splitting without adding a ninth member is stupid when one of the league's main problems is the unbalanced football schedule. On the basketball side, as well, there would be a huge debate about how many members are necessary. Eight, nine, ten, and twelve would all be considerations. Dayton and Xavier would demand to move together so they only come into play if going with 10 or 12 is the answer.

The thought of adding a ninth football team, and 17th overall team, is dead on arrival. Once again, the Catholic basketball teams will not vote themselves into a minority, so it will never fly. The choices are stay as we are (barf), add a football-only member (puke), or expand to 18 schools with one on the football side and one on the basketball side to keep the voting balance the Catholic basketball schools demand.

The repeated references to the Meineke Car Care Bowl blindsiding as sharing a bowl with Navy is laughable. It was an isolated scorned wife maneuver. What happened was the people who run the Meineke Car Care Bowl were upset, very upset, with Mike Tranghese for flirting with the Liberty Bowl and offering them our number three pick. They did the Navy thing one time only to get revenge and send a message.

The bowl picture improves by leaps and bounds in 2010. Mike Tranghese thinks Rick Catlett is seeing the light at the Gator Bowl and we have to hope he is right, the Meineke Car Care Bowl has increased its payout and is committed to the Big East, the St. Petersburg Bowl will be approved any day now, the International Bowl is on good ground, and something is likely in the works to replace the Papa John's Bowl.

The anger at Notre Dame is understandable. It is counterproductive to partner with the Big East in basketball and minor sports but turn around and treat those same people like dirt when it comes to football. Playing everyone home-and-home is not even necessary in my opinion. Just play neutral-and-neutral. Use the Meadowlands and Gillette Stadium to everyone's advantage instead of looking down on anybody.

The writer in the first article makes my point very well. Notre Dame is not just dealing with some nobodies off the street when negotiating to play Big East teams in football. These are the same schools who share a partnership in basketball and minor sports. Separating those relationships is impossible. Demanding home-and-neutral is not good. Notre Dame needs to realize this behavior is awful for the conference.

The bottom line is that no one should spit on his wife or lover in the morning (football) and keep expecting to get some (basketball) in the evening. It is a bad idea.

TerryD, while I might not like Notre Dame and its relationship with the Big East, I do think you are a good poster and person, and appreciate your views on what you think Notre Dame's view is on the topics from this board.

Jose_Jalapeno_on_a_Stick Wrote:

rferry Wrote:It IS not not necessary. I suggest you to check the NCAA manual. For conferences to retain their auto-bid to NCAA championships, they must retain 6 members after the split. However, for the new conferences to function correctly, they would need 8 or more members. The 2 additional members need not come from the old Big East. They can be any established D1 at all.

If it would have been:

SU
BC
UConn
RU
WVU
Pitt

...along with UC/UL, that makes SIX.

Geez, if the overbloated 16 team BE comglammeration, with ND, is so great, why isn't your Maryland school petitioning for membership??

Uh, the same reasons that BC left and Syracuse wanted to leave?
While there's problems with the 16-team Big East, a Big East football league isn't a strong league even for football. The revenues just are there to make it successful.

cuseroc Wrote:Rferry wrote:

Quote:A Big East football conference fearing losing its BCS bid and getting only 3 tourney bids isn't anyone's idea of a strong league.

Syracuse, Pitt, Uconn, WV, Louisville, Rutgers, USF, Cincy and Memphis.

Your telling me you only see 3 ncaa tourney bids out of this league?Simply WOW!

There were 5 ncaa bids from this group just this past season. And Cincy and Cuse were still down. In a bad year, I dont see any less than 4 ncaa bids from this group. In a good year, there could be as many as 7.

No, actually, that's what you told me. When you said the Big East football members were on par with the 12-team ACC. The 12-team ACC has struggled to get tourney bids. If the new league was on par, then they'd receive roughly the same percentage of bids per member, no? That would mean 3 tourney bids. It's not that surprising either. Whereas in the larger league you could get to .500 off the cellar dwellers and reach 20 wins, they'd struggle to reach .500 in the newer league and have no hope for the NCAAs.

Krocker Krapp Wrote:The repeated references to the Meineke Car Care Bowl blindsiding as sharing a bowl with Navy is laughable. It was an isolated scorned wife maneuver. What happened was the people who run the Meineke Car Care Bowl were upset, very upset, with Mike Tranghese for flirting with the Liberty Bowl and offering them our number three pick. They did the Navy thing one time only to get revenge and send a message.

The bowl picture improves by leaps and bounds in 2010. Mike Tranghese thinks Rick Catlett is seeing the light at the Gator Bowl and we have to hope he is right, the Meineke Car Care Bowl has increased its payout and is committed to the Big East, the St. Petersburg Bowl will be approved any day now, the International Bowl is on good ground, and something is likely in the works to replace the Papa John's Bowl.

I seem to recall something about that. It was a surprise that Navy got a conditional tie in. Thankfully they did because it worked out well in Charlotte and now San Diego will have another round. But that's beside the point.

The Big East still needs help in earning bowl tie-ins. Bowls won't even commit to yearly contracts with the Big East, instead allowing them an out to partner up with other conferences to ensure they aren't stuck with one of undesirable Big East squad. Last year the Big East lost out on $2.5 million because the Gator Bowl wanted the 4th best Big 12 team over the 2nd best Big East team. While people want to say Notre Dame's irrelevant, that in recent years Notre Dame has "stolen" bowl bids from more successful Big East squads show what the bowl committees think of the league and Notre Dame.
Even if we assume the Big East would realize all available bowl tie-ins, not counting the BCS bowls since those slots are undecided, the Big East's average per bowl pay out is only $1.1 million. That's over $600 thousand (roughly Conference USA's average) away from the next closest Big 6 conference.
Bowl opportunities are easy to come by. How many are there now, enough for over 50% of D1A membership IIRC. The goal of the conference should be to get better bowls.

rferry Wrote:Bowls won't even commit to yearly contracts with the Big East, instead allowing them an out to partner up with other conferences to ensure they aren't stuck with one of undesirable Big East squad. Last year the Big East lost out on $2.5 million because the Gator Bowl wanted the 4th best Big 12 team over the 2nd best Big East team. While people want to say Notre Dame's irrelevant, that in recent years Notre Dame has "stolen" bowl bids from more successful Big East squads show what the bowl committees think of the league and Notre Dame.
Even if we assume the Big East would realize all available bowl tie-ins, not counting the BCS bowls since those slots are undecided, the Big East's average per bowl pay out is only $1.1 million. That's over $600 thousand (roughly Conference USA's average) away from the next closest Big 6 conference.
Bowl opportunities are easy to come by. How many are there now, enough for over 50% of D1A membership IIRC. The goal of the conference should be to get better bowls.

The BE lost out on 600k because the BE rep went to the Sun Bowl (IIRC the payout for the Sun is $1.9 million). Also, those bowl contracts were signed in 2005 when the bowl commitees were unsure - other than WVu - how many bowl tickets and viewers BE teams would bring. I think it's safe to say now that the BE has certainly enhanced it's position in the eyes of bowl committess for the next contracts. I do not know though whether they will significantly improve the situation. We will only know for sure over the next couple of years.