rferry Wrote:

omnicarrier Wrote:Are you perhaps a proponent of some new math???

G'Town's average attendance over the past 2 years against the football schools - 16,772 with 3 sellouts out of 9 games and 3 more with attendance over 17K

G'Town's average attendance over the past 2 years against the bb schools - 12,768 with 0 sellouts out of 9 games and with only 3 with attendance over 17K, 1 out of 2 against ND, 1 out of 2 against Nova, and their 1 game against Marquette.

West Virginia drew 14,203 and the two lowest turnouts for the Hoyas were for USF and St. John's, not USF and WVU.

Villanova plays half of its BE games at the Pavilion, but chooses to play its bigger games at the Wachovia Center. Over the past three years, those games have gone to SU (all 3 years), UConn (the 2 years they played them at 'home'), and Louisville (the 2 years they played them at 'home').

The other Wachovia games have gone to Pitt, G'Town, ND, and Marquette, but each of those also played at the Pavilion in that time span.

The same old math. I figure when you throw in an extra games against Notre Dame and Marquette, you've covered 10K in attendance.

And you figured this how? First off, the numbers above clearly state they include ND playing GT twice at the Verizon Center. Second, neither of those were sellouts with only 1 of them being over 17K. The average for GT using just ND, Nova, and Marquette (and this assumes the Golden Eagles draw a similar crowd in a second game that never actually took place, which was actually 4K less in ND’s case and 6K less in Nova’s case) is 16.5K.

Now, the average for the other bb schools at Georgetown is 9.2K. So, the average attendance for conference games for the Hoyas actually drops to 11.9K.

Quote:Any BE basketball school offers additional 5K over USF.

Wrong again. In fact DePaul drew 9,315, St. John’s drew 9,018, and USF drew 8,316.

Quote:You're now talking about Georgetown's estimated average attendance at 14,700, not 12768.

Wrong again. The average actually goes down to about 12.2K even assuming Marquette could pull off 17K again in a second visit. Please note that ND had a difference of 4K between two visits and Nova had a difference of 6K between the two years.

Quote:At even the most expensive seats at day-of-the-game prices, that's no more than $500K in lost revenue than they might earn in the new football league. And I expect the rivalries a balanced home-and-home schedule will eventually increase attendance.

Wrong again. Georgetown has had most of those same rivalries since 1980 and the trend just has not changed. What has changed is the new interest in Louisville, Cincinnati, a good West Virginia, and a near-elite Pitt team. On the bb side, only difference is Marquette.

Quote:But we haven't begun the benefits of a better per-member share of the basketball revenues or 2 additional OOC opportunities (most likely against Syracuse and UConn anyway).

You make the assumption that these rivalries would continue. And yet, we don’t see UConn, SU, and Pitt playing basketball on an annual basis with BC, despite the decades old rivalry they have with the Eagles.

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Quote:All supposition at this point in time.

First, I simply don't see the BE football schools going to 12. There are not enough football schools to make that worthwhile. Second, the continual "symbiotic" relationship between the BE football schools and ND is likely to continue - despite what fans on message boards believe - because it is deemed beneficial to both, otherwise it wouldn't have lasted as long as it has.

Therefore, even if there is a split, it could very well be one where ND remains with the football schools. And if that is the case, and ND wants Georgetown and Villanova along for the ride - both of those institutions will have a hard decision to make ahead of them under those circumstances.

So is everything in this exercise, no?

The all supposition part was aimed specifically at the notion that the football schools would expand to 12 automatically. That is a huge leap in logic. The only expressed feelings in regard to football expansion has been to add ‘one’ additional member, not four. Your ‘fear’ tactics are based upon an expansion to 12 which would eliminate the possibility of a partial hybrid anyway. In which case this whole exercise is pointless.

But expansion to all-sports with 9 allows for the possibility of continuing the hybrid in a smaller more compact version with ND, GT, and Nova. Something they still might not find to their liking, but definitely not because of the reasons you cite which are mostly related to money and this perception of ‘instability’.

Since you have stated that you believe all other super-conferences are stable and unlikely to expand targeting Big East schools – where is this notion of instability coming from? The BCS auto-bid is secured. The Big East football schools met the criteria without even having to go through an appeal process.

Since they will need to continue to meet that criteria, it means that when they do expand it will benefit them to do so slowly, only expanding by one – something they have made clear is their preference.

So, in essence, this statement by you, “Any advantage in revenue joining the new league could disappear when the football schools expand to 12” is indeed supposition.

Which again, is what I was responding to.

Quote:The only thing Georgetown and Villanova have in common with the football schools is the desire for money.

Don’t underestimate the desire of money. BC has far more in common with GT and Nova than they do with any ACC institution, and yet they left for ‘money’.

And while GT and Nova do have a lot in common with their Catholic League brethren, they have more in common with the football schools than you realize.

First, GT is a research institution. Outside of ND, no other Catholic League school designates themselves as such. Each of the football schools do.

Second, taking out football expenditures, St. John’s, GT, Nova, and Marquette athletic expenditures are more in-line with what the football schools expend in comparison to what Providence, Seton Hall, and DePaul spend. Also, keep in mind that likely new members of the Catholic League – Dayton and Xavier – have athletic expenditures less than either Providence or Seton Hall.

Now, let’s look at the other sports besides men’s bb.

Women’s bb – Do you think GT and Nova would rather play the football schools in this sport or the bb schools?

Baseball – not even sure the new Catholic League have enough schools to sponsor this as a sport, but even if they did, the football schools are better top to bottom – though St. John’s is the league’s best program.

Softball – Edge to the football schools.

Men’s & Women’s Soccer – About evenly matched here.

Volleyball – Football schools have the edge here.

Field Hockey – Catholic League (CL) won’t have enough to sponsor this sport, but with them (ND, GT, and Nova) the football schools would

Women’s Lacrosse – CL won’t have enough to sponsor this sport, but with them football schools would

Men’s Lacrosse – No hope, but with them, football schools would – but only will if Syracuse agrees to be part of it.

As you can see, it is more than just about men’s bb – which while that will still be good in a CL – nothing else really will come close.

Now, will they exist in a CL if they are forced to? Of course. But, if offered a spot in a partial hybrid that is smaller and more compact than the current configuration – all of the above will be considered when weighing their options.

Still might say No, but it isn't as cut and dried as you would like to make it out to be. Especially with the notion that they would actually be better off in the Catholic League.

Quote:And the new league can't promise that {money} with any amount of certainty.

Where do you come up with this stuff? The current bb contract, which is only surpassed by the ACC’s, is a case where the total is greater than the sums of the individual parts. However, it is based basically on the following factors:

The national pull of UConn, Louisville, Syracuse, and Pitt.

The name recognition of Notre Dame – and if they should ever get really good, they would join the other four above.

The NYC market – provided by the pull of UConn and SU and enhanced slightly by the name recognition of St. John’s – but the Johnnies are hardly mandatory for that particular market – especially when MSG made it clear back in 2003 that if there were a split, they go with the football schools.

The ‘pull’ and ‘reach’ Nova and Georgetown have with the Philly and DC markets when they are Top 25 teams and playing the likes of UConn, UL, SU, Pitt, and ND.

The ‘reach’ into the Chicago market thanks to the presence of ND, DePaul, and slightly to Marquette as well. It is highly unlikely the ‘pull’ will ever materialize in this particular market due to the stranglehold the Big Ten has there.

As one can easily see by the above, the contract would likely remain the same in a 9-team all-sports conference with ND, Nova, and GT. This would increase per-team shares since the whole basketball pie (TV contract, NCAA tourney units, conference tourney) would be divided amongst 12 members instead of 16.

Quote:Georgetown and Villanova won't get any BCS or conference championship revenue. The additional TV dollars can't be any better than TV revenue that the basketball teams could demand. Even before Louisville and Cincinnati, BE basketball was a big name and not just for UConn and Syracuse.

Again, one only has to look at who got the nationally broadcast games:

Louisville – 14
UConn – 13
Syracuse – 13
Georgetown – 12
Villanova – 11
Pitt – 11
Marquette - 10
West Virginia – 10
Notre Dame – 9

And of these, only about 10 percent of them actually featured a bb school against a bb school. There were plenty where it was football school vs. football school and football school vs. bb school, but not quite so many bb school vs. bb school.

Quote:And all of that could be eliminated in a second if the football schools decide to expand football revenues at the expense of the per-member shares in other sports.

Anything is possible, I suppose. And IF offered a partial hybrid, ND, Nova, and GT would have to ensure this didn’t come about by requesting a clause in the new conference’s constitution to prevent it.

Quote:You're forgetting that Notre Dame isn't leeching off Big East football, it's supporting Big East football's bowl bids.

You are relatively new here to this board. While I am human and make mistakes, I rarely forget anything. Anyway, I don’t believe I have ever referred to the ND/BE Football school relationship as them ‘leeching’. Rather the term I prefer to use is that it is a ‘symbiotic’ relationship – meaning each party feeds off the other.

The discussion of sports above demonstrates, in part, what ND gets from the football schools. They play their men’s and women’s bb and the majority of the rest of their olympic sports in a BCS-level conference without having to sacrifice their independence in football.

Quote:Remove the Big East tie and Notre Dame has no connection to them. There's no reason for them to partner with the new football league. Notre Dame will have no trouble negotiating their own bowl contracts.

Actually, they did. The Gator and ND went shopping to find another conference that would allow ND to take a conference slot if eligible and every other conference said, NO!

And please, spare me the usual retort about the Cotton Bowl arrangement with the SEC. That has been in place since the late 90s and hasn’t been used at all. The Cotton could have exercised it in 2002 or in 2004 but chose instead LSU and Tennessee, respectively.

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Quote:Time and circumstances of realignment is a terrible argument. The time and circumstances were ripe a few years ago. And who got selected? Not any of those teams. It was Miami, VA Tech and BC and would have been Syracuse. Like it or not, but that suggests Rutgers, Pitt, UConn, Louisville don't have as much to offer to conferences as those programs (except maybe VA Tech which was forced into the realignment).

The ACC's vision at the time was for an Atlantic Coast version of the Pac-10. Kind of hard to include Louisville in that kind of set-up.

Also, they had to scrap those plans due to UNC's and Duke's obstinacy, giving Virginia more power than they really wanted which forced VT on the ACC's hands - turning that conference into SEC-lite instead of a potential Pac-10 on steroids down the road.

Now, had the ACC agreed to UNC's and Duke's Miami-only proposal and revisited expansion in 2010, don't you think that UConn and Rutgers would at least be viable substitutes for BC and Syracuse now? If you don't think so, you aren't as smart as you think you are.

Again, time and circumstance has mostly everything to do with it. Merit has little to do with current conference configuration.

I'll even apply the above to USF, which when BC went to the ACC, won out over UCF, Temple, and Memphis. Did USF "merit" BCS membership over these other institutions? Of course not. They got in mainly because Mikey T always coveted the Tampa market and on potential.

Nothing wrong with that. They have proven to be an excellent addition to the league.

Academic reputation is part of merit. So is the media market. And, of course, athletics and fan base. The ACC believed Syracuse offered most of those while UConn, West Virginia and Rutgers could offer only 1 or 2.
Miami was the target. Syracuse offered more than any team. BC offered more than most in the league. VA Tech had to be included. They were the best candidates. Rutgers and UConn (no, not even now, a half-decade doesn't change much) and others were not. That's why they were left out. Not because they met the test but failed on a technicality. Not because timing was off. Not any of that. It's plain and simple. They weren't the best overall programs Big East had to offer. Even if it were just a football decision, the only current Big East teams that finished ahead of the selected 3 and Syracuse was West Virginia, and sometimes Pittsburgh.

As you note above, Syracuse offered more than either VT or BC, and yet SU is still in the Big East.

In terms of undergraduate academics, SU, Pitt, RU, and UConn all consistently rank above VT in this regard.

In terms of graduate research, Pitt and RU rank above VT, SU, and BC.

In terms of football, Pitt ranks above SU, VT, or BC. West Virginia ranks above VT and BC and is now fast closing in on SU.

In terms of traveling football fans, West Virginia ranks above SU and BC.

In terms of markets, RU, UConn, Pitt, SU, and WVU rank above VT.

Again, other than Miami, which was a no-brainer (even UNC and Duke saw that), the rest was a crapshoot. At the time the two best programs to add would have been SU and Pitt if one wanted to do it on the basis of ‘merit’. If one wanted to do it solely on football – it should have been West Virginia and VT. If one wanted to do it on ‘potential’ they probably would have been better off with Rutgers and UConn.

See, time and circumstance.

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Quote:Thursday night games are not all that new. They have been playing them for quite some time. Even the Old Big East teams played them as well as the ACC (and Thursday night games were very much a part of the new ACC contract as well - since they couldn't compete with the big boys on Saturday either). Yet, here we are again, with this hodge-podge thrown together league of cast-offs breaking TV rating records for these games.

Again, because the Thursday night ratings were such a hit in 2006, the league had more Saturday showings than they ever had this year since they lost the CBS contract - including a time period when Miami and VT were challenging for National Championships.

And Thursday night games have been successful no matter who the conference is. Even the MAC posts decent ratings on weeknight games.

We are not talking about ‘decent’ ratings, we are talking about 3 of the Top 5 rankings for Thursday night games.

Quote:Unless you're counting ESPNU games, you had 11 national or semi-national Saturday showings last year. 11 in 2006, 10 in 2005. http://mattsarz44017.tripod.com/

For football, it is national network and ESPN I was looking at. I also narrowed it to BE conference games because playing Miami and getting on ABC is probably more about Miami than it is about a Big East team.

Using that as my standard, 2006 saw no Saturday ABC BE conference games and 4 on ESPN. Whereas 2007 saw 4 Saturday ABC BE conference games (sure they were mostly confined to specific regions, but it’s better than zero) and 2 Saturday BE conference games on ESPN.

Quote:The reason why there were more Saturday showings because they signed an exclusive contract with ESPN that puts the games on ESPN2 at noon, not because of the ratings.

The new football contract starts in 2008, not 2007 like the bb contract. The fact that ABC/ESPN started to take advantage of it earlier shows interest on the part of ABC/ESPN in the growth the league has shown.

Quote:You're setting up low standards so you feel like you've achieved something. Unfortunately what you've achieved is nothing of substance at all.

Yeah, I know. Three straight BCS Bowl wins over the SEC Champ, the ACC Chump, and the Big 12 Champ has no substance whatsoever and three of the top rated Thursday night games ever have no meaning either.

Perhaps we now know why the ACC hasn’t won a BCS Bowl game this century. It has no real substance whatsoever, so they don’t take it seriously.

Oh, and by the way, the ACC has played several Thursday night games in the past. How many of them are in the Top 5? Gee, only 1. ACC can't compete there either.

Run along home to the ACC board son.

Cheers,
Neil

Good work Omni and nice research.

Don't know what math you're using. A 12768 average for the non-football schools jumps to 14643 with an additional 10K bump from the extra Marquette and Notre Dame games and additional 5K that most BE schools would bring over USF. ((12768 * 8 + 15000) / 8). If the 12768 average includes the Notre Dame game then the average only drops to 14018. We haven't even considered the effect of the attendance boosts from one of these games becoming the year's big game, restarting the St. John's and Seton Hall rivalries, or OOC opportunities (SU & UConn will happen if the teams want it, just like BC and Providence have restarted their rivalry).
Like I pointed out, the financial loss is minimal at best. Even at your worst-case scenario using the the highest ticket prices, you're talking about 1 million dollars tops. We're talking about college basketball game revenues here. The difference between a few thousand fans for 2 hours. This isn't football with tens of thousands of fans for 3+ hours plus tailgating.

A huge part of conference membership is aligning with like-minded institutions. Whether football expansion is definite or not, I don't see Georgetown and Villanova joining schools that show they're more interested in expanding football revenues even if it means blowing up one of the best basketball leagues in the country. If you're a basketball school, do you really want to form the minority bloc in that conference? Not when all you revenues are tied up in basketball. You want to be in a conference that will protect and expand its basketball revenues, not cut it short for football. That's not a down-the-road consideration, that's a critical determination is deciding whether to join or not.
Non-revenue sports need not even be discussed. The motivation for revenue sports is to keep costs down and retain a conference's championship berth. Programs align regionally and offer sport-specific membership to fulfill those goals. Baseball does not determine conference membership. Frankly you're wasting your and my time with such nonsense.

The Big East basketball schools control the TV revenue. They can carry DC, Philly and Chicago. That's 3 of the top 10 markets. The best the football schools can carry is #22 Pittsburgh. Syracuse, UConn and Louisville are great programs and they'll draw, but then so are Georgetown and Villanova. The best the football schools could do is match what the basketball schools could bring in.

There's few good bowls out there. And fewer quality conferences. Notre Dame is a big name. And the bowls will do whatever it takes to get them in there. Even if it means telling the SEC that the bowl reserves the right to take Notre Dame if it wants. It wasn't long ago that most bowls decided their bowl slots at large. With the top bowls and BCS conferences relatively stable (yes, Big East football's BCS berth is stable, its name or current formation isn't though, hence all the split talk), there's little preventing a return to the practice. Especially not to accommodate Notre Dame.

Time and circumstance determined 1 member: Virginia Tech. Virginia's vote had to be bought. Circumstance played a part is determining another: Miami was targeted for football, but Miami was comparable in market, athletics and academics to other Big East football schools. Syracuse and Boston College were wanted over the current Big East teams, not because of time and circumstance, but simply because they were best the Big East had to offer. No other reason. The remaining Big East was not chosen because were not good enough. No other reason. Hence, the remaining schools have had to form a second tier league (which has played like a first-tier league).

Good luck with your great-drawing Thursday night games. You'll get a lot more of them this year. Along with Wednesday games. And Friday night games. And Saturday ESPN2 noon games. I'm sure the rest of the football playing world looks on with envy. Oh wait, they're looking on because there's no other college football on TV at those times.

rferry Wrote:Don't know what math you're using. A 12768 average for the non-football schools jumps to 14643 with an additional 10K bump from the extra Marquette and Notre Dame games and additional 5K that most BE schools would bring over USF.

I'll try and explain this slowly... since you are having trouble processing this...

The 12768 over a 2-year period includes two visits to the Verizon Center by the Irish.

One of their visits drew 19,286 and the other drew 15,506. Even in a round-robin set-up there will be no more than one visit to GT a year.

Capiche?

The same holds true for Villanova, which in one year drew a nice 17,575 and in the other only drew 11,816

And this notion that all of the Catholic schools would draw 5000 plus more was already disproven in my last post.

USF - drew 8316
St. John's - drew 9018
DePaul - drew 9315

The actual average attendance over a 2-year period for Hoya games in conference for a Catholic League based upon historical data projects to be 12.2K, assuming Marquette draws the same 17,867 for both games. Assuming a drop off of 5K, the average attendance would be 11.9.

Move on, son, you've been :pwnt: on this particular issue.

Quote:A huge part of conference membership is aligning with like-minded institutions. Whether football expansion is definite or not, I don't see Georgetown and Villanova joining schools that show they're more interested in expanding football revenues even if it means blowing up one of the best basketball leagues in the country.

Don't necessarily disagree with that concept. After all, that was UNC's and Duke's objection to the recent additions of Miami, VT, and BC.

Of course, the BIG difference in this hypothetical scenario is that the football schools by inviting ND, GT, and Nova plus one football school (most likely either UCF or Memphis) to get to 9 for that sport, would hardly be 'blowing up' the basketball portion of the league.

In essence, they would be improving it by keeping 3 of the 4 bb schools who have the best chance to continue to excel in that sport and by reducing the number of programs to 12. This reduction in number allows for the league to go back to 16 conference games but would increase the home-home series from the current three to five. If they kept an 18 game conference schedule it would increase the home-and-home series to seven.

In either case, this increases the number of high drawing league opponents for both GT and Nova over a 2-year stretch and also increases the SOS of the league.

Quote:If you're a basketball school, do you really want to form the minority bloc in that conference? Not when all you revenues are tied up in basketball. You want to be in a conference that will protect and expand its basketball revenues, not cut it short for football. That's not a down-the-road consideration, that's a critical determination is deciding whether to join or not.

And again, as I've stated quite a few times in these posts, that will be a tough choice for the Hoyas and Nova - and will probably be the deal-breaker. On the other hand, they've asked the football schools for over two decades now to do the opposite. Until VT joined for all-sports in 2000 or 2001 (too lazy to look it up now), the football schools never even had equity with the bb schools in terms of voting. And they've never had the majority like the bb schools have enjoyed.

At a certain point in time, either you trust your partners or you don't trust them.

Quote:Non-revenue sports need not even be discussed.

Says who? You? Since when do you get to make that call.

One doesn't invest the kinds of $$$ that Georgetown does in their non-revenue sports if they aren't important to them. The likes of Providence, Seton Hall, DePaul, Dayton, and Xavier may not care - which is why an A-10 set-up might do them just fine. But based upon what I see taking place at St. John's, GT, and Nova, the mindset is different.

Quote:Programs align regionally and offer sport-specific membership to fulfill those goals. Baseball does not determine conference membership. Frankly you're wasting your and my time with such nonsense.

Please. The nonsense is coming mainly from you. Never said the non-revenue sports were the main focus. Rather, as presented, it is another consideration that strongly favors continued association with the football schools over the bb schools.

Quote:The Big East basketball schools control the TV revenue. They can carry DC, Philly and Chicago. That's 3 of the top 10 markets.

Talk about utter nonsense.

TV contracts are about 'pull' and 'reach'. It is why the football contract for the BE isn't where it needs to be, even though technically the BE can claim NYC.

Remove the attraction of Nova and GT playing the likes of UConn, Syracuse, Louisville, etc., and what remains is a TV contract that is not significantly above the A10 with Temple, St. Joe's, LaSalle, and GW for the A-10. Reduce Nova and GT to mediocre programs (like they were for a period of time during the late 90s and early 00s) and watch the TV contract dry up like a prune.

Again, all one has to do is see what games were broadcast on national TV involving Nova and GT to see this concept in play.

Quote:The best the football schools can carry is #22 Pittsburgh. Syracuse, UConn and Louisville are great programs and they'll draw, but then so are Georgetown and Villanova. The best the football schools could do is match what the basketball schools could bring in.

The difference is that UConn, Louisville, and Syracuse draw even when they are average teams. It took the return to prominence of Nova and GT to get them back on the national stage. And I, for one, am happy they are back (well, maybe not the Hoyas so much ) - but if you don't believe me, ask Hoya and Wildcat fans about their lack of national TV exposure when they were average.

Anyway, as I already mentioned, the current BE TV contract is a case where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. I already acknowledged the contributions of ND, Nova, GT, and slightly St. John's, DePaul, and Marquette.

But if you truly believe that they 'control' the TV contract you are sadly mistaken.

Quote:Notre Dame is a big name. And the bowls will do whatever it takes to get them in there. Even if it means telling the SEC that the bowl reserves the right to take Notre Dame if it wants.

Why do I get the impression that you skim my posts with eyes basically closed and your mind even more closed?

What didn't you comprehend about the Gator and ND shopping around for a different BCS conference to give them the same deal the Big East had and found absolutely - NO TAKERS!!!

You can actually google this information for yourself, if you bothered to do research on the topic.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with Notre Dame and it's big name. Now, is it possible ND could persuade C-USA or MW or one of the others to give them the same deal? Perhaps. The problem there is that ND wants prestigious bowls to be associated with - and the majority of those are associated with BCS conferences.

Quote:It wasn't long ago that most bowls decided their bowl slots at large.

You might actually learn something if you do the research and learn WHY the bowls changed that set-up and why they are not likely to change the current format anytime soon.

Quote:Time and circumstance determined 1 member: Virginia Tech. Virginia's vote had to be bought. Circumstance played a part is determining another: Miami was targeted for football, but Miami was comparable in market, athletics and academics to other Big East football schools. Syracuse and Boston College were wanted over the current Big East teams, not because of time and circumstance, but simply because they were best the Big East had to offer. No other reason.

SU and BC were wanted for varying reasons, few of which had to do with the ACC believing they were 'better' than Pitt, UConn, and Rutgers - particularly BC. BC and SU were targeted first and mainly, because Miami wanted them. There are more reasons why SU and BC were targeted, but I won't bother explaining them to you - since I am sure the explanation would require a follow-up and this will be my last post in response to you.

Quote:The remaining Big East was not chosen because were not good enough. No other reason. Hence, the remaining schools have had to form a second tier league (which has played like a first-tier league).

Thank you for at least recognizing the latter part. One day, when you grow up, you might actually be surprised to see that this hodge-podge of 'second-tier' institutions has surpassed many of those you believe to be 'first-tier' on virtually all fronts - from academics through athletics.

Quote:Good luck with your great-drawing Thursday night games. You'll get a lot more of them this year. Along with Wednesday games. And Friday night games. And Saturday ESPN2 noon games. I'm sure the rest of the football playing world looks on with envy. Oh wait, they're looking on because there's no other college football on TV at those times.

True enough. But again, the ACC has played plenty of those games over the years. So why aren't they being watched in the same record numbers???

Cheers,
Neil

Wasn't this thread originally about how arrogant those damn Irish and their administration/alumni/fans are? Sheesh, this has left my head spinning... :)

Carry on.

I agree, Terry. It's a long-winded argument about nothing much...

Perhaps you can check my math for me since apparently I can't reach your figures. If you have Marquette (17867), Villanova (14696 avg), Notre Dame (17396 avg), St. John's (9018) and DePaul (9315) for 5 of your conference home games. That's a 13658 average right there. When you include 6th and 7th games against Providence (9350 avg) and Seton Hall (14528), the average will merely comes down to 13167. Feel free to break out your calculator to check.
And like I said before, game day attendance isn't of great importance in basketball. At worse, you're talking about 1 million in revenue.

History and all sense says you don't trust the Big East football members to restrain themselves. Even if the Big East can pass the ACC, they're still fighting an uphill battle and a conference championship would be too enticing to pass up. Like you said, Georgetown and Villanova have fought for Big East's basketball interests and lost in most cases. Hardly see them backing themselves up in a corner willingly.

Like I said, don't waste my and your time. Many of the football schools don't offer scholarships or competitive programs in the non-revenue sports. The athletics programs of Georgetown and Villanova have much more in common with Big East basketball in the sports they offer and the sports they are competitive in. You think Georgetown cares about West Virginia's rifle shooting or lacrosse? Besides you're talking about top programs in DePaul soccer and softball, St. John's baseball and Notre Dame just-about-everything.

The Big East can't claim NYC for football, because no one in NYC cares about everyday college football let alone Rutgers, Syracuse or UConn. People in DC, Chicago and Philly care about college basketball a lot especially those 3 programs. You don't need marquee games to attract attention in those areas. They help certainly. And if they provide value, I'm sure Gtown and Villanova will schedule them OOC.
UConn and Syracuse didn't carry the league through the 90s and 00s. And neither will Gtown and Villanova have to carry Big East basketball after a football split. The Big East brand is stronger than that. The pull of its name, market, quality and all its programs is enough to earn a sizable contract that the new Big East football would have a hard time matching carrying all their dead weight around.

Besides if the ratings of Big East and MAC football is any indication, if you put it on the air in an exclusive time slot, people will watch just about anything.

The bowls and Notre Dame don't need a deal like the Big East's. They merely need an at-large provision to be included into bowl contracts. I bet you Notre Dame doesn't even have to say a thing, but simply drop their Big East arrangement and bowls will be clamoring to rewrite their bowl agreements to allow for such a provision.
It was only as the BCS bowls were being established that forced the top bowls into exclusive agreements with conferences for their top teams. (The lower bowls have agreements for an entirely different reason: to prevent a 7-5 MAC team taking a 6-6 Alabama's spot.) There were many hold outs among bowls until the recent realignment caused bowls to fight over conference affiliation. If anything, the present environment is ripe for an open-ended agreement between Notre Dame and bowls. Look at all the bowls that are splitting up their ties between conferences. Look at what Navy has been able to accomplish. It's freaking Notre Dame. Unless you're the SEC, where everyone of its teams travel well, you can't boss around the multi-million dollar bowls. And with conference membership, or atleast the rank of conferences, relatively stable, there's fewer reasons for bowls to lock in with conferences.

The ACC debated many different members, including Notre Dame for awhile. If you don't think the merits of Syracuse vs. Rutgers or BC vs. Pittsburgh came up in discussions, I've got a bridge to sell ya. The ACC did not consider the remaining Big East members because they did not think they warranted an invite. Not because of any technicality, but simply they were not good enough. No other reason.

The ACC moved onto Saturday games because they could demand such. Perhaps their low ratings next showing will force them to return to playing Tuesday nights. But atleast they'll be handsomely rewarded by the concession. ESPN won't be so willing to reward any more the Big East for same concession.

rferry Wrote:Perhaps you can check my math for me since apparently I can't reach your figures. If you have Marquette (17867), Villanova (14696 avg), Notre Dame (17396 avg), St. John's (9018) and DePaul (9315) for 5 of your conference home games. That's a 13658 average right there. When you include 6th and 7th games against Providence (9350 avg) and Seton Hall (14528), the average will merely comes down to 13167. Feel free to break out your calculator to check.
And like I said before, game day attendance isn't of great importance in basketball. At worse, you're talking about 1 million in revenue.

History and all sense says you don't trust the Big East football members to restrain themselves. Even if the Big East can pass the ACC, they're still fighting an uphill battle and a conference championship would be too enticing to pass up. Like you said, Georgetown and Villanova have fought for Big East's basketball interests and lost in most cases. Hardly see them backing themselves up in a corner willingly.

Like I said, don't waste my and your time. Many of the football schools don't offer scholarships or competitive programs in the non-revenue sports. The athletics programs of Georgetown and Villanova have much more in common with Big East basketball in the sports they offer and the sports they are competitive in. You think Georgetown cares about West Virginia's rifle shooting or lacrosse? Besides you're talking about top programs in DePaul soccer and softball, St. John's baseball and Notre Dame just-about-everything.

The Big East can't claim NYC for football, because no one in NYC cares about everyday college football let alone Rutgers, Syracuse or UConn. People in DC, Chicago and Philly care about college basketball a lot especially those 3 programs. You don't need marquee games to attract attention in those areas. They help certainly. And if they provide value, I'm sure Gtown and Villanova will schedule them OOC.
UConn and Syracuse didn't carry the league through the 90s and 00s. And neither will Gtown and Villanova have to carry Big East basketball after a football split. The Big East brand is stronger than that. The pull of its name, market, quality and all its programs is enough to earn a sizable contract that the new Big East football would have a hard time matching carrying all their dead weight around.

Besides if the ratings of Big East and MAC football is any indication, if you put it on the air in an exclusive time slot, people will watch just about anything.

The bowls and Notre Dame don't need a deal like the Big East's. They merely need an at-large provision to be included into bowl contracts. I bet you Notre Dame doesn't even have to say a thing, but simply drop their Big East arrangement and bowls will be clamoring to rewrite their bowl agreements to allow for such a provision.
It was only as the BCS bowls were being established that forced the top bowls into exclusive agreements with conferences for their top teams. (The lower bowls have agreements for an entirely different reason: to prevent a 7-5 MAC team taking a 6-6 Alabama's spot.) There were many hold outs among bowls until the recent realignment caused bowls to fight over conference affiliation. If anything, the present environment is ripe for an open-ended agreement between Notre Dame and bowls. Look at all the bowls that are splitting up their ties between conferences. Look at what Navy has been able to accomplish. It's freaking Notre Dame. Unless you're the SEC, where everyone of its teams travel well, you can't boss around the multi-million dollar bowls. And with conference membership, or atleast the rank of conferences, relatively stable, there's fewer reasons for bowls to lock in with conferences.

The ACC debated many different members, including Notre Dame for awhile. If you don't think the merits of Syracuse vs. Rutgers or BC vs. Pittsburgh came up in discussions, I've got a bridge to sell ya. The ACC did not consider the remaining Big East members because they did not think they warranted an invite. Not because of any technicality, but simply they were not good enough. No other reason.

The ACC moved onto Saturday games because they could demand such. Perhaps their low ratings next showing will force them to return to playing Tuesday nights. But atleast they'll be handsomely rewarded by the concession. ESPN won't be so willing to reward any more the Big East for same concession.

Give it up already man. You have been made to look like an real homer, and have been totally owned with you worthless biased opinions. The more you post the more you look like a desperate loser. And I think you should be banned for taking underhanded shots at the BE.

Well Im ALL for the going to 9 and keeping ND,Villanova and Georgetown.

I think that configuration will bring more money per team. Give football a balanced schedule extra bowl game and room to grow. Villanova,Geirgetown and Notre Dame will continue to make this a tremendous basketball league.

rferry Wrote:Perhaps you can check my math for me since apparently I can't reach your figures. If you have Marquette (17867), Villanova (14696 avg), Notre Dame (17396 avg), St. John's (9018) and DePaul (9315) for 5 of your conference home games. That's a 13658 average right there. When you include 6th and 7th games against Providence (9350 avg) and Seton Hall (14528), the average will merely comes down to 13167. Feel free to break out your calculator to check.

I know I promised not to respond again, but...

Wow, you really are a glutton for punishment.

The problem with the math above this time is with your assumptions now with the Seton Hall and Providence games and the assumption that the Catholic League will simply remain at 8 teams.

As mentioned previously with Notre Dame and Villanova, the attendance swing was drastic over a 2-year period. The Seton Hall figure you have is from the high side. They also had a low side of 8658. This brings their average down to 11593. The last time the Friars played at the Hoyas, the game drew 6985 bringing the average to 12.4K using the Marquette high side figure twice.

Now factor in two more likely games against the likes of Xavier and Dayton at 9500 and raise the Providence game up to 9500 and raise the Hall's average up 12.5K (to compensate for using 2005-06 figures in their cases to get the original numbers) and you wind up with 12.2K.

At no point in time do you get the 14.6K you originally claimed, nor even the 13K you now claim.

But keep trying. By the time you are done, they'll be down to less than 10K.



Cheers,
Neil

P.S.

The numbers for the supposed 'deadwood' with two year averages except for Louisville:

SU - 19457
UConn - 19400
UL - 19116 (like Marquette, only the one game to use)
Pitt - 16660
WVU - 15233
Cincy - 14676
RU - 9070
USF - 6700

Yep, I can see your point about those wonderful bb rivalries GT has. NOT!

...and the beat goes on... :band:

My figure was compiled using an average of the past 2 years for the highest draws and some of the worst draws by the lowest draws. Average out Seton Hall (11593), and the overall estimate only goes down to 12,748.
Don't know where you're getting 12,400 or any of your earlier estimates. An estimated 5000 per game drop by Georgetown and Villanova should have been a clue to check your figures.

Rivals? Who said anything about rivals? I know you're not trying to claim Louisville and Cincinnati are Georgetown and Villanova's rivals. Hardly. They're big draws because they're good programs. No other reason. Georgetown and Villanova can play big games OOC if they want.

Wasn't your original point what a financial disaster losing games against those schools would be? Yet you continually ignore what a small and insignificant impact it would have on the bottom line.

army56mike Wrote:I think the most reasonable, easiest, and obvious answer for the BEast issues is to add the Memphis Tigers. They are a powerhouse basketball program with a decent football program that would easily flourish under the BCS wing. They are in much the same situations as UofL, UC, and USF were when they came in. They add a major market.

The ONLY hang up that I can realistically see is the inferiority complex that the basketball schools would have with more football members than basketball members. They won't stand for that, therefore they will not make a decision in the best interest of the BEast. We would have balance in both basketball and football scheduling. It seems so simple.

Mike,
You make an excellent point. If the football schools go to the basketball schools and say.."add Memphis or we split" what are the basketball schools going to say?
The basketball schools are already at a huge disadvantage as far as a bargaining position and if anyone thinks a program like Seton Hall holds as much clout as WVU or Syracuse in conference discussions they are kidding themselves.
If the football schools take the add Memphis or split position with the basketball onlys, they will cave, they have to.
Better to add another quality opponent to the basketball schedule and split the basketball pie 17 ways than to spilt a much smaller basketball pie 8 ways.
I would look for a discussion like this at the Big East meetings.
CJ

CatsClaw Wrote:

TerryD Wrote:There is now some indications that ND and Alabama talks are heating up about a series to take the place of the proposed Rutgers games on ND's future schedules.

I assume these will be home and home games, but ND vs. Alabama at the Sugar Bowl or the Georgia Dome would be good ideas.

Good, maybe Notre Dame can run off and join the SEC.

Claw, to add to your note, buddy ... if Notre Dame is so intent on playing games in big cities with NFL stadiums, why don't they just move THEIR HOME GAMES a few miles to the west to Soldier Field?

Wouldn't take care of everything?

esayem Wrote:

Krocker Krapp Wrote:Dayton and Xavier would demand to move together so they only come into play if going with 10 or 12 is the answer.

Why don't you look up how long Xavier and Dayton have really been associated? Xavier would leave them in half a heartbeat and be the 9th member and that would be it. The only real market they would need to replace was Cincinnati.

I do not have to look up anything because I have talked to administrators at both Dayton and Xavier and they said at the time the two schools reunited in the A-10 that they planned to stay together from now on. Both schools reiterated this point in the media during all the craziness of 2003.

Could the Musketeers be given a financial offer that they absolutely could not refuse? Possibly. But not likely. Even if such a thing happened, though, they would make sure to help the Flyers get into a decent conference as well rather than just turning their backs and walking away from them.

CardinalJim Wrote:Mike,
You make an excellent point. If the football schools go to the basketball schools and say.."add Memphis or we split" what are the basketball schools going to say?
The basketball schools are already at a huge disadvantage as far as a bargaining position and if anyone thinks a program like Seton Hall holds as much clout as WVU or Syracuse in conference discussions they are kidding themselves.
If the football schools take the add Memphis or split position with the basketball onlys, they will cave, they have to.
Better to add another quality opponent to the basketball schedule and split the basketball pie 17 ways than to spilt a much smaller basketball pie 8 ways.
I would look for a discussion like this at the Big East meetings.
CJ

I agree but also disagree. The FB schools want to add one and can put on the pressure. When they want to add another, we can put on the pressure again. The BB schools see the trend and may want to add a BB school everytime we add a FB school. The best solution is to say we have different agendas and we need to divorce. It will be enough fighting with other FB schools over whom we add inthe north and whom we add in the south and when do we add them then to also have to deal with eight schools that don't even play or care about BCS football. It is time to split and forge ahead as a united conference with a single agenda.

The fact is we've (BB and FB schools) have grown apart and it makes no sense trying to stay together. We've found a new love and it's BCS FB. We'll always remember the good times with the BB schools but ti's just no longer working out. The truth is that both sides understand this by now. A full split is in the best interest of BE FB. what the point of dealing with the BB schools to add another FB team? What the point of negotiating wtih BB-only schools to expand into the talent pool and markets we need to survive. Are you going to hang around and let the BB schools vote on what the FB school can and can't do. It's going to be a full-time job adding schools and working to get them up to BCS standards and keeping them there- we cannot do that with the distraction of BB schools working on a different agenda. Or ND in the mix either. We need a conference where ever member is committed to the same objectives and we can only get there by splitting. The BB schools won't want to go to Memphis- Why would they? They not planning to to recruit any BB players from the south. Northeastern FB schools can't wait to expand our southern roots we know Tennessee is getting some great players out of the state and we'd like a shot a stealing one or two. After all they don't play high school football in New York City. We need to be in the places where high school football is king. The BB schools can do fine staying in the northeast.

rferry Wrote:The Big East basketball schools control the TV revenue. They can carry DC, Philly and Chicago. That's 3 of the top 10 markets. The best the football schools can carry is #22 Pittsburgh. Syracuse, UConn and Louisville are great programs and they'll draw, but then so are Georgetown and Villanova. The best the football schools could do is match what the basketball schools could bring in.

Dead wrong. 45 minutes outside of New York City, Rutgers controls the NYC market, they have proved that last year when they were winning. Syracuse and UCONN also feed NYC because a lot of graduates come from NYC and return there to work. The BB-only schools will have St. Johns and Seton Hall to tap the number one market. NYC is the starting point because the NYC market is about as large as Wash. DC, Boston, and Phil. combined.

http://www.tvb.org/rcentral/markettrack/...by_dma.asp

Now add Temple and BE FB can claim two of the top four markets. The rest is gravy. The battle is for NYC and when it comes to FB the BB- schools arent' even putting up a fight. Up north people talk abut the "Tri-state area" (New York, New Jersey and Conn) because these three states are so closely linked. Rutgers is a key player in terms of markets.

NYC is big enough for both Syr. Rutgers, St. johns and Seton Hall. remember NYC at one point carried two pro teams in Basketball, baseball and football and everybody was making money. Most cities can barely support one. The Jets and Giants are still here. The yankees and Mets are still here. The Brooklyn Dogers left some years ago. The Knicks kicked the Nets across the river. They were a young franchise and the Knicks were more established.

If contracts are based on "market potential" BE football has a great hub. It's the Hub that makes the ACC and the B10 salivate.

The other side of that are smaller markets that don't have proteams like Virginia or West Virginia. In these markets college sports becomes the only game in town. Also in some big southern cities, the college team has been around longer than the pro team and has deeper roots. But by all indications- winning lets you tap out market potential.

NYC belongs to no team and no conference, football or basketball. There's as many Michigan and Duke alumni than there is Syracuse or UConn.
You think Temple can carry Philly? LOL. Even if this is just basketball, Villanova has the market.
You're right that Rutgers is very well supported school in both markets, but they can not carry either. TV networks would rather put on the national game.
Hence why I said football can only carry Pittsburgh (which includes a sizable portion of the northern WV market WV clearly dominates).

rferry Wrote:NYC belongs to no team and no conference, football or basketball. There's as many Michigan and Duke alumni than there is Syracuse or UConn.
You think Temple can carry Philly? LOL. Even if this is just basketball, Villanova has the market.
You're right that Rutgers is very well supported school in both markets, but they can not carry either. TV networks would rather put on the national game.
Hence why I said football can only carry Pittsburgh (which includes a sizable portion of the northern WV market WV clearly dominates).

Oh really. Wow. And to think I've been living in NYC all my life and have yet to meet a DUKE or MIch alumni.
Syracuse U operates the Lubin House in NYC for SU alum in NYC. DOes DUke or Mich have a alumni club or a full house, a permanent 8 hour a day-establishment for alumni, parents and non-alumni, in NYC. I think you're talking out your ACC A$$.
Even if they did peep this fact: NYC belongs to Rutgers, Syracuse and St. Johns because of alumni and also because the vast majority of people who dont' go to college root for local schools when they are winning. The average NYC kid is not excited about Michigan or Duke winning. They root for local schools hence: Rutgers, Syracuse and St. Johns.

Syracuse has a smaller alumni club in Atlanta also. Does that mean there are as many Syracuse alumni in Georgia as there are UGA or Ga. Tech alumni. Man you must be puffing hard on the dummy dumb pipe.

http://www.suacoa.com/

Temple (30,000 students) can carry Philadelphia. Villanova (10,000 students) is winning and has a national championship that they ride on. Full membership in a BCS conference gives Temple Phil. especiall if temple is playing Syr. UCONN, Louisville etc. etc. Wo wouldn't want to watch that? To think the BE FB is only PIttsburg is just plain ignorant.

New YOrk belongs to Rutgers Syracuse and St. Johns. Rutgers success last year spiked TV rating in NYC off the scale. Michigan's success or failure as no effect on TV ratings in NYC. BUt rferry insists Mich. is as much NYC as SYracuse or Rutgers- GO figure.
ESPN also airs just about every Duke BB game, but guess what, not in NYC. I guess they figure NYC is not a hot market for DUke but rferry thinks it is. GO figure again.

This thread has become an inane conversation, with no real relevence to the topic listed for the thread. It's a moronic diatribe by the disaffected, hoping to prove themselves somehow worthy.

How stupid is that?