Cubanbull Wrote:The reality is that as LONG as ND can command the attention of their own TV network and instant access to BCS Bowl and National championship then they have NO need for joining ANY league. Look at Penn State they joined the Big10 and I would say that even though they might be making more money their image has suffered. They are now just another Big10 team, no Rose Bowl appearances and certainly not the heavy weight they were before joining.

Disagree with the Penn State analogy. Joining the Big East didn't damage Miami's reputation nor did joining the ACC damage Florida State's. In fact, one could say both images were enhanced by their conference affiliations. What may hurt both in the long run is being part of the same conference together, but that has yet to be proven since it has only been three years.

Also, if Penn State had turned down the Big Ten invite and also turned down the Big East when they formed a football conference, I highly doubt they could have made a decade or more run of it as an independent.

Penn State's problem from an athletics point only - is that they chose the wrong conference to be affiliated with. Right choice in terms of institutional academic match, but wrong choice in terms of athletics.

I think ND sees the same thing in Big Ten membership only double - wrong choice in terms of athletics and wrong choice in terms of institutional academic match.

And since ND can remain independent thanks to the Big East, the double no-go above is what keeps them independent.

Quote:I always thought that ND's 3 game offer to BE was to stay with the football schools in case of a split or to keep the status quo which benefits them. Rutgers stand seems to signal something different that the football schools are thinking that if ND wants to be part of them they must be more willing to acts as equals.

But the fact that UConn took the deal would seem to indicate that this was clearly individual institutions doing what they thought was best for them. I would not consider this a benchmark of how or what the football schools are thinking collectively.

Quote:I do NOT like the UConn contract, while UConn and USF are football newbies and playing ND is a way to get their name and football name reognition. I mean lets face it even a ranked USF team beating Notre Dame would attract more attention and surprise than an unranked ND beating a ranked USF team at this point. So I could have seen UConn signing a three game deal or even 4 with those terms but not as long as they did. I have a feeling that the contract signed WILL NOT be completed as specified and that the terms will change in 3-4 years or be dissolved just my feelings.

Well, it was cut down from a 10 game deal to a 7 game deal, so perhaps some of that thinking was in play.

Quote:Notre Dame as an indy would be able to sign up with pretty much ANY bowl as a possible choice. That would mean the Cotton, Gator,Sun,Peach etc. So in reality a split wouldnt hurt as much for BE bowl tie ins like the Gator, because that Bowl has no other conference option and with ND free to go to other bowls it would mean less access to Gator.

Another reason why I hate the Gator. But it's obvious from the recent bowl article that Tranghese plans remaining tied to Gatlett and take the abuse he doles out to the Big East without ever standing up to him.

I can't wait for Mikey T to retire.

Quote:So it looks like this could be a BIG stand on the future structure of BE. You gotta know that the RU AD is talking to the other BE FB ADs about their stand and try to get everyone to stand together

Perhaps, but again, I don't see it as such. I see it more along the lines of individual institutions (Rutgers and UConn) doing totally opposite things based upon what each determined was best for their football programs.

Cheers,
Neil

Omni:

Thanks for the comment. I have a great deal of respect for you and your opinions as well.

I agree about the schedule issue....lots of ND alumni think that Kevin White is a money grubbing, err.... (revenue stream maximizing) coward (conservative). Those folks think ND should play USC, Michigan, Texas, LSU, etc... every year.

I think that they are right about White but not EXACTLY correct in their desire to have an extremely tougher schedule than most other BCS teams.

ND used to play a MUCH tougher schedule than a lot of other big name BCS teams. The thought process was to modify that since SOS is not currently factored that heavily in the BCS.

Many ND fans think that Kevin White is going to far to maximize revenue and dilute the schedule.

I think a middle ground approach to independence can be achieved regarding the strength of schedule when Kevin White leaves ND. Is Tom Jurich available? :)

I think that you are mistaken a bit on the issue of whether non-alumni, Irish Catholic fans care about independence. As one of them, I certainly do and I know quite a few who feel the same.

The overtures to the Big Ten in 1999 and the ACC in 2003 were done by a previous regime. The current one is committed to independence.

Basketball and Olympic sports are important to ND, but not THAT important. Football, like everywhere else, is the key. Unlike most other institutions, independence is considered the "Holy Grail".

I stand by my opinion that ND will remain an independent (for as long as possible and for the new future for sure) in football and will help to set up or join a conference for other sports after the BE football schools split.

Now, if there ever is a football playoff, all bets are off. I am fifty and hope to live about forty more years.

I am not sure that even if I get my wish I will likely live long enough to see that playoff.


p.s. If you are monitoring Rock's House at NDNation.com (and I think you are), then you are aware of the scheduling debate and the Big East debate.

For others, a fair summary would be that many ND alumni feel the schedule is being too diluted, think that Kevin White is not behaving properly in dealing with Rutgers on home an home, etc.... That matches what is discussed here.

Not as much is the opinion that ND should not play 3 BE teams per year, especially on a long term basis. It is felt that it ties ND's scheduling options up too much and that the Rutgers stance could be used as a basis to say the entire 3 game concept should be scrapped.

Those tough matchups, on national TV every week, was a big help in recruiting. I wonder if watering down the schedule effects their recruiting efforts.

They were #2 in recruiting last year (Alabama was #1 by Rivals in large part because it recruited 33..yes 33... players to ND's 23).

This past weekend, the #1 rated running back (5 star) in the country (from California) and another 4 star running back committed to ND.

They also got a commitment from a 4 star 300 lb. nose tackle and another Golic (Jake, a TE) this past week.

I think recruiting at ND is in great shape. The lack of depth under Willingham has been addressed and the Irish have acquired a lot of talent the past couple of classes. It is largely young talent (many of them are freshman and sophomores) but there is more there than in the past fifteen years, in my opinion.

It is translating that talent to wins that I will be watching for the next two seasons.

TerryD Wrote:p.s. If you are monitoring Rock's House at NDNation.com (and I think you are), then you are aware of the scheduling debate and the Big East debate.

For others, a fair summary would be that many ND alumni feel the schedule is being too diluted, think that Kevin White is not behaving properly in dealing with Rutgers on home an home, etc.... That matches what is discussed here.

Not as much is the opinion that ND should not play 3 BE teams per year, especially on a long term basis. It is felt that it ties ND's scheduling options up too much and that the Rutgers stance could be used as a basis to say the entire 3 game concept should be scrapped.

Terry,

What would you and others that feel the same way to be ND's ideal schedule every year going forward? I would assume Navy and USC are on there so there would be 10 games left. How many from each conference (BE, ACC, SEC, Big 12, Big 11, Pac 10)

Second question is what do you consider to be 'key markets' or 'regions' for ND to hit in their non-conference schedule if you had to rank them?

Thanks!

There is a lot of discussion about a 4-4-4 model.

The idea is to have four really tough games per year (USC, Michigan, and then rotating teams like Texas, LSU, etc..), four "medium" games ( Michigan State, Purdue, etc...) and four "winnable" games (Navy, etc...).

I think that is overzealous, to be honest.


Here is my opinion:

Two PAC 10 teams per year (USC and Stanford). That gives ND a West Coast game every year. Home and home series.

Two Big Ten teams, maybe three (Michigan, Purdue and Michigan State). I am a traditionalist, I like those games. Home and home.

Navy every year until/unless they say no more. This is to repay them for saving ND. Besides, they have played almost every year since 1927 (tradition again).

This gives ND a home game every other year and a "neutral site game" every other year.

Pitt every year. Home and home. Yep, tradition.

I believe that ND has played Pitt something like 66 times. A game in Heinz Field every other year would be great for ND fans in Western PA and be good for recruiting in WPIAL territory.

That is seven games. That gives ND a presence in Western PA, the Midwest and the West Coast. Navy helps give them an East Coast presence (Baltimore and/or the new Redskins Stadium) every other year.

I would then like to see ND play in the Meadowlands every year. That gives them a game in the New York City area for fans and TV purposes and gives them a New Jersey presence for recruiting.

That game could be with a Big East team or with someone else. The opponent is not that big of an issue, the locale is.

That leaves four games on a rotating basis every year. The issue is how to parcel them out.

I would leave one game per year for a "big name" match up...Oklahoma, FSU, etc... Home and home. I would focus on the South so that ND has a presence there for recruiting.

I would want at least a seven home, five road game schedule every year. The 7-4-1 model is ok, too, in my book. My list above provides for what, five or six per year home games per year?

The other game(s) would be likely "one and dones" like San Diego State, Baylor, etc....

I like the neutral site idea. I just think that the opponents should be better. If you add another neutral site game, it should be in the South or Southwest.


This was all stream of consciousness stuff. I hope it makes sense, numbers wise.

I am not sure that it leaves room for three BE games per year, at least not home and home ones (maybe it does, I think I have confused even myself, lol).

That it the current debate amongst ND folks.

TerryD Wrote:Omni:

Thanks for the comment. I have a great deal of respect for you and your opinions as well.

I agree about the schedule issue....lots of ND alumni think that Kevin White is a money grubbing, err.... (revenue stream maximizing) coward (conservative). Those folks think ND should play USC, Michigan, Texas, LSU, etc... every year.

I think that they are right about White but not EXACTLY correct in their desire to have an extremely tougher schedule than most other BCS teams.

ND used to play a MUCH tougher schedule than a lot of other big name BCS teams. The thought process was to modify that since SOS is not currently factored that heavily in the BCS.

Many ND fans think that Kevin White is going too far to maximize revenue and dilute the schedule.

If he's trying to maximize revenues, then there is a reason behind it. Again, critical thinking skills need to be applied. The AD's Office has determined that they need more $$$ from the TV contracts to keep up with the coming age of conference networks.

This is the true impetus behind the 7-4-1 and 8-4 scheduling approach.

Quote:I think a middle ground approach to independence can be achieved regarding the strength of schedule when Kevin White leaves ND. Is Tom Jurich available? :)

Perhaps. But it appears to me that Jurich is even more into maximizing revenue than White is.

Quote:I think that you are mistaken a bit on the issue of whether non-alumni, Irish Catholic fans care about independence. As one of them, I certainly do and I know quite a few who feel the same.

The obvious counterpoint I would make about the above is that it is the majority of northeastern and Floridian non-alum Catholics that actually support ND playing more Big East games (something most of the hardcore alum are against - heck they don't even want to play 3 BE teams on an annual basis).

I suppose it could be countered that the California and Texas non-alum Catholic fans would side with the alums so we will agree to disagree over this.

But again, from my perspective, access to ND games is more important to this particular segment of ND fans than who is played. Otherwise you wouldn't have such bad match-ups as Baylor vs ND in the Alamo Dome or whichever cupcake plays ND at Raymond James Stadium since it doesn't appear as though it is going to be USF, Miami, Florida or FSU.

Quote:The overtures to the Big Ten in 1999 and the ACC in 2003 were done by a previous regime. The current one is committed to independence.

Regimes change over time. There's nothing to say that the next regime won't be conference friendly. Also, the very fact the current regime is giving its blessing to the current scheduling philosophy and overpaid for Weis tells me that they also know they need to maximize revenue - which again, using critical thinking skills, let's me think that they can be tempted by $$$ again, if things do not pan out as they hope.

Quote:Basketball and Olympic sports are important to ND, but not THAT important. Football, like everywhere else, is the key. Unlike most other institutions, independence is considered the "Holy Grail".

I stand by my opinion that ND will remain an independent (for as long as possible and for the new future for sure) in football and will help to set up or join a conference for other sports after the BE football schools split.

Oh, I have no doubt that they will try and stay the course as long as possible. But when they have trouble keeping up with Purdue, Indiana, and Illinois in terms of TV contract money and facilities - they will start to re-think their position.

And the current state of their facilities for basketball and olympic sports is mediocre at best and downright pathetic in some cases. Which, of course, hampers their ability to get top-notch coaches in those sports.

Quote:p.s. If you are monitoring Rock's House at NDNation.com (and I think you are), then you are aware of the scheduling debate and the Big East debate.

For others, a fair summary would be that many ND alumni feel the schedule is being too diluted, think that Kevin White is not behaving properly in dealing with Rutgers on home an home, etc.... That matches what is discussed here.

Not as much is the opinion that ND should not play 3 BE teams per year, especially on a long term basis. It is felt that it ties ND's scheduling options up too much and that the Rutgers stance could be used as a basis to say the entire 3 game concept should be scrapped.

I read many sports message boards, NDNation being one of them.

The scheduling debate has been on-going for a while. And of course, the vitriolic hatred of the Big East football teams by a few of the posters irks me to no end. But everyone is entitled to their opinions.

I thought it was surprising that quite a few posted they would like to schedule West Virginia considering that just three years ago they wanted nothing whatsoever to do with playing the Eers.

I guess that's what winning two BCS Bowls over an SEC champ and a Big 12 champ can do for a program in the eyes of the hardcore ND fans.

Of course, being a Syracuse fan, I already knew playing West Virginia has always been fun.

Cheers,
Neil

ND just hired Jeff Jackson for hockey and this year made the Frozen Four for the first time and played in the national championship game.

ND under Mike Brey has had a couple of really good seasons and was what, 24-8 and made the Tourney this season. Not too bad.

I agree with you, though. The basketball and hockey facilities need an upgrade. There was a very large private donation in the millions of dollars made two years ago to do this. It is on the drawing board to upgrade the Joyce Center, but the administration is dragging its feet.

ND has enough $$$ to build a state of the art facility for hockey and basketball. The fact that they are even slow playing an improvement to a facility built in 1968 is an indication of how low a priority those sports are at ND.

They just built the Gug Center (95,000 square feet) adjacent to the older Loftus Center, so their recruiting and training facilities are pretty good.

ND Stadium was renovated and expanded to 80,000 capacity in 1997. There are discussions about further expansion but the issues of room (they just eliminated the street between the Stadium and the Joyce Center) and messing with things like the sight lines of Touchdown Jesus and the original bowl configuration are presently being debated.

I have been to Frank Eck Stadium. It is one of the better BE baseball parks.

I am not sure that many at ND are worried about being passed up by Illinois and Purdue, facility wise.

I understand the point you are trying to make. Sure, revenue stream enhancement is important for everyone.

Tradition should not be downplayed at ND. For instance, there are no advertisements nor a Jumbotron at Notre Dame Stadium. ND will also not be selling the stadium naming rights, ever.

Those would be good revenue stream enhancements, but White would be tarred and feathered if he ever suggested any of those.

Conference membership is sort of one of those "taboo" topics right now, up their with naming rights and a Jumbotron.

Besides Mich, USC & Pitt. ND might start playing all road games at neutral sites. Perdue can play at Indainaoplis dome, Stanford can play at new stadium for 49ers in Santa Clare. Perdue & Stanford might not agree, but just like Meadowlands somebody will.

There is a lot of discussion about a 4-4-4 model.

The idea is to have four really tough games per year (USC, Michigan, and then rotating teams like Texas, LSU, etc..), four "medium" games ( Michigan State, Purdue, etc...) and four "winnable" games (Navy, etc...).

Sounds like a dumbed down Navy scheduling philosophy more akin to MAC and CUSA scheduling philosophy. ND was granted access to the BCS table as an individual institution because of the the challenging schedules they played in the nineties from top to bottom. If they continue to downgrade their schedule to guarantee wins with weak opponents then its is time they were excused from the special BCS privileges that were bestowed upon them when they were initially invited to the table. If you don't play in the BCS game as an independent then you shouldn't receive a piece of the pie. Does ND share their section of the looser take with the other independents. No of course not. They don't share anything and take everything they can get there grubby hands on as you alluded to in your comments about Kevin White.

I would then like to see ND play in the Meadowlands every year. That gives them a game in the New York City area for fans and TV purposes and gives them a New Jersey presence for recruiting.

If the new Jersey Governor and the State of NJ Governing system had any balls they would bar ND from playing in the Meadowlands unless they paid Rutgers and the State of NJ territorial fees, and played Rutgers there under Rutgers and the BE terms, and played some of the Rutgers games at Rutgers Stadium too. All the states and the universities inthose states where ND is trying to pull this crap should be demanding the same thing too. If ND wants to control these games let them play an 8 and 4 schedule at their own stadium. Why should these communities and states clean up a ND crappy mess after this ARROGANT HOLIER than THOU school leaves town with all the money.

It time the communities, the states, and the Universities of these stepped on states stood up for their own and protected their own territories instead of bowing to this overrated money grubbing institution called Notre Lame.

Rutgers has stood its ground and its time for the State of NJ to back them. After all it is state taxpayers money that built that complex and only NJ State supported universities should be controlling who plays there and when, with a cut of the gate going to them whether they play there or not. Other state governments like Connecticut are starting to sniff at this ND abuse but to date have done nothing or failed to follow through and enforce the the will of their states like NJ. It just appears they just don't have the nads or have been bought off like most corrupt government officials.

Panite:

What you propose will not happen. Why not?

The Interstate Commerce Clause of the United States Constitution.

Anti-trust laws.

ND fan base draw and television draw. $$$$$$$

Individual states, communities and/or universities will look out for themselves and get what they think is a good, individual deal with ND.

TerryD Wrote:Panite:

What you propose will not happen. Why not?

The Interstate Commerce Clause of the United States Constitution.

Anti-trust laws.

ND fan base draw and television draw. $$$$$$$

Individual states, communities and/or universities will look out for themselves and get what they think is a good, individual deal with ND.

Interstate commerce is one thing but STATE OWNED PRPERTY is another.

TerryD Wrote:Panite:

What you propose will not happen. Why not?

The Interstate Commerce Clause of the United States Constitution.

Anti-trust laws.

ND fan base draw and television draw. $$$$$$$

Individual states, communities and/or universities will look out for themselves and get what they think is a good, individual deal with ND.

More importantly, it isn't going to happen because college football is wedded to the bowl structure, and the upper tier bowls want ND part of the BCS.

Some fans forget that the BCS Cartel is a combination of the conferences, the BCS Bowl committees, and TV.

As long as two-thirds of that cartel want ND to have a place at the table - they will.

Heck, even the conferences WANT ND to be part of the system, they just want them to be part of it as a conference member.

Cheers,
Neil

Oops, this was in response to someone saying that ND should lose their place in the BCS in another - not as part of the scheduling thing Panite brought up.

Sorry.

panite Wrote:

TerryD Wrote:Panite:

What you propose will not happen. Why not?

The Interstate Commerce Clause of the United States Constitution.

Anti-trust laws.

ND fan base draw and television draw. $$$$$$$

Individual states, communities and/or universities will look out for themselves and get what they think is a good, individual deal with ND.

Interstate commerce is one thing but STATE OWNED PRPERTY is another.

As long as ND pays to rent the stadium, will the state care?

And this brings up another interesting point about the UConn series. Since the Gillette and Meadowland games are technically the Huskies "home games" does this mean the state of Connecticut has to pay rent to these stadiums to play these games?

And if not, and ND pays it, wouldn't that make them ND games and part of the ND TV contract and not part of the Big East TV contract?

Cheers,
Neil

Jose_Jalapeno_on_a_Stick Wrote:Wilkie and Jim,

Of course you know, any split possibility will have to be spearheaded by your man Jurich.

I tend to agree with you. Unfortunately Tom and Mikey T are pretty close; Tranghese confides in Jurich. I just don't see Tom leading this charge as long as Mikey is in charge. At the same time I do believe Jurich has Tranghese's ear when it comes to our football programs scheduling troubles. That's why I believe Memphis will be added to the Big East, as it is, before an outright split happens.
CJ

Terry, the way I see it is, you are either Big East 100% or you are independent 100%! You can not be both. Notre Dame will soon have to chose because none of the football programs in the Big East thinks you are special, except for maybe UConn!

TerryD Wrote:Here is my opinion:

Two PAC 10 teams per year (USC and Stanford). That gives ND a West Coast game every year. Home and home series.

Two Big Ten teams, maybe three (Michigan, Purdue and Michigan State). I am a traditionalist, I like those games. Home and home.

Navy every year until/unless they say no more. This is to repay them for saving ND. Besides, they have played almost every year since 1927 (tradition again).

This gives ND a home game every other year and a "neutral site game" every other year.

Pitt every year. Home and home. Yep, tradition.

I believe that ND has played Pitt something like 66 times. A game in Heinz Field every other year would be great for ND fans in Western PA and be good for recruiting in WPIAL territory.

That is seven games. That gives ND a presence in Western PA, the Midwest and the West Coast. Navy helps give them an East Coast presence (Baltimore and/or the new Redskins Stadium) every other year.

I would then like to see ND play in the Meadowlands every year. That gives them a game in the New York City area for fans and TV purposes and gives them a New Jersey presence for recruiting.

That game could be with a Big East team or with someone else. The opponent is not that big of an issue, the locale is.

That leaves four games on a rotating basis every year. The issue is how to parcel them out.

I would leave one game per year for a "big name" match up...Oklahoma, FSU, etc... Home and home. I would focus on the South so that ND has a presence there for recruiting.

I would want at least a seven home, five road game schedule every year. The 7-4-1 model is ok, too, in my book. My list above provides for what, five or six per year home games per year?

The other game(s) would be likely "one and dones" like San Diego State, Baylor, etc....

I like the neutral site idea. I just think that the opponents should be better. If you add another neutral site game, it should be in the South or Southwest.

My opinion on Notre Dame scheduling is that the only neutral games should be at Gillette Stadium and the Meadowlands and those games should only be against Big East teams. Do not require Big East schools to go to South Bend. Just play them at the two NFL stadiums.

The Gillette Stadium games can be in odd years and the Meadowlands games can be in even years or something like that. Notre Dame can always dress as the home team in Gillette Stadium and the Big East schools can always dress as the home team in the Meadowlands.

EXAMPLE NEUTRAL SITE ROTATION
2011: Gillette Stadium vs. Connecticut
2012: Meadowlands vs. Connecticut
2013: Gillette Stadium vs. Rutgers
2014: Meadowlands vs. Rutgers
2015: Gillette Stadium vs. Cincinnati
2016: Meadowlands vs. Cincinnati
2017: Gillette Stadium vs. Louisville
2018: Meadowlands vs. Louisville
2019: Gillette Stadium vs. South Florida
2020: Gillette Stadium vs. South Florida

Forget about traveling around the country. Big 12 fans will not sell out the Alamodome to see Notre Dame play Washington State and SEC fans will not sell out the Superdome to see Notre Dame play Baylor. Those places are not Notre Dame territory. But the Northeast is.

Notre Dame should alternate USC and Stanford, Michigan and Michigan State, Purdue and Pittsburgh, Army and Navy home and home. The Big East Gillette/Meadowlands game is neutral. With three games left, two of which are likely home and home, you end up with 6/5/1.

Totally Unacceptable!!!!

I never said it would be acceptable. My point is that Notre Dame should not require teams to travel to South Bend and then not play them in their own stadiums.

If they want to play at neutral sites then all of the games in a series need to be at neutral sites. Being fanatical is easy but finding solutions requires diplomacy.

Its still Catholic home game for Notre Dame, nothing in it for Louisville but the shaft!