Hello There, Guest! (LoginRegister)

Post Reply 
Raid on polygamist compound based upon false police report?
Author Message
Bourgeois_Rage Away
That guy!
*

Posts: 6,965
Joined: Mar 2004
Reputation: 106
I Root For: UC & Bushmills
Location:

Folding@NCAAbbsNCAAbbs LUGDonatorsDonators
Post: #41
RE: Raid on polygamist compound based upon false police report?
Quote:Now they might not be able to prosecute the men who "married" these girls, because of the invalidity of the search, but the protection of children is highest on the scale of permissible government intervention.

I've heard from some places that they may still be able to prosecute because they executed the warrant "in good faith" that the tipster was who she said she was. Since the police did nothing out of regulations the evidence gathered is still admissible. I'm certainly not up on all the details and technicalities, but this will be interested to watch.
04-21-2008 12:17 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Hambone10 Offline
Hooter
*

Posts: 40,235
Joined: Nov 2005
Reputation: 1275
I Root For: My Kids
Location: Right Down th Middle

New Orleans BowlDonatorsThe Parliament Awards
Post: #42
RE: Raid on polygamist compound based upon false police report?
CPS is not the police. They don't need probable cause to investigate. A report that turns out to be false is still suspicion, and PLENTY to allow a CPS worker to ask a few questions. The ONLY problem could be if the police made or encouraged someone to make a false report... but CPS was still within their duty to investigate it... and discovering impropriety... to report it. In other words, while the police could be in trouble if they falsified a complaint... but the CPS charges would still stand.
(This post was last modified: 04-21-2008 12:31 PM by Hambone10.)
04-21-2008 12:25 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Lord Stanley Offline
L'Étoile du Nord
*

Posts: 19,103
Joined: Feb 2005
Reputation: 994
I Root For: NIU
Location: Cold. So cold......
Post: #43
RE: Raid on polygamist compound based upon false police report?
How the hell do you do your taxes if you are from the YFZ Ranch?

Married filing jointly with 4 wives and 36 dependents, with 40 child tax credits because my 4 wives are all under 18.
04-21-2008 02:39 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
I45owl Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 18,374
Joined: Jun 2005
Reputation: 184
I Root For: Rice Owls
Location: Dallas, TX

New Orleans Bowl
Post: #44
RE: Raid on polygamist compound based upon false police report?
Fanatical Wrote:An interesting little twist, the compound is going to undergo DNA testing to determine parentage of all these kids. Apparently, wives are shuffled around if someone leaves the community.

The results are in: They ... are ... all ... the ... same.

Bourgeois_Rage Wrote:
Quote:Now they might not be able to prosecute the men who "married" these girls, because of the invalidity of the search, but the protection of children is highest on the scale of permissible government intervention.

I've heard from some places that they may still be able to prosecute because they executed the warrant "in good faith" that the tipster was who she said she was. Since the police did nothing out of regulations the evidence gathered is still admissible. I'm certainly not up on all the details and technicalities, but this will be interested to watch.

From my experience watching years and years of NYPD Blue, the arrests would be legal if the call was fraudulent, but neither the police nor anyone they could be connected to were the ones that made the false claim - hence in good faith. If the call was from anyone that could be considered a police or govt. agent, though, good faith is out the window.
04-21-2008 03:55 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Hambone10 Offline
Hooter
*

Posts: 40,235
Joined: Nov 2005
Reputation: 1275
I Root For: My Kids
Location: Right Down th Middle

New Orleans BowlDonatorsThe Parliament Awards
Post: #45
RE: Raid on polygamist compound based upon false police report?
Yes, but remember... the arrests are not based on the call. The arrests are based upon the observations by the CPS agent. The visit by CPS was the result of the call, but as anyone who has taught elementary school will tell you... CPS (at least in Texas) is given an AWFUL LOT of leeway to investigate even the most obtuse of claims.

I'm not saying that the government entity who filed the report (if they did) can't get in trouble, but CPS's charges will likely stand. CPS was doing their job, and they saw clear signs of abuse.
04-21-2008 04:13 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
I45owl Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 18,374
Joined: Jun 2005
Reputation: 184
I Root For: Rice Owls
Location: Dallas, TX

New Orleans Bowl
Post: #46
RE: Raid on polygamist compound based upon false police report?
blah Wrote:I hear what you are saying, but let's just say for arguments sake that the U.S. tomorrow made being a Christian against the law. Would that mean you would stop, because the U.S. government said so?

I just heard that Texas specifically defined $cientology such that it's a business and not a religion and can therefore be taxed. Therefore, while Tom Cruise can continue to be an idiot, he must deduct his travel as a business expense, not a charitable donation while in Texas.
04-21-2008 04:47 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Fo Shizzle Offline
Pragmatic Classical Liberal
*

Posts: 42,023
Joined: Dec 2006
Reputation: 1203
I Root For: ECU PIRATES
Location: North Carolina

Balance of Power Contest
Post: #47
RE: Raid on polygamist compound based upon false police report?
Latest news is that that a black woman from Col. is being investigated for being the tipster. She has been arrested before, for calling tip lines and posing as a young girl being abused. She reportedly logged over 40 hours of conversations with this agencies volunteers during the period of this complaint...Who knows?...This is getting more bizzare by the day.
04-21-2008 05:48 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
WoodlandsOwl Offline
Up in the Woods
*

Posts: 11,813
Joined: Jun 2005
Reputation: 115
I Root For: Rice Owls
Location:

New Orleans Bowl
Post: #48
RE: Raid on polygamist compound based upon false police report?
The residents relocated to El Dorado from Arizona and Utah.

There is a good possibility that many biological fathers cannot be identified because they left the loons before they came to Texas.

It will be easier to ID the mothers because of mitochondrial DNA.

The biological fathers will get stuck with the Child Support bill....
04-22-2008 07:39 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Fo Shizzle Offline
Pragmatic Classical Liberal
*

Posts: 42,023
Joined: Dec 2006
Reputation: 1203
I Root For: ECU PIRATES
Location: North Carolina

Balance of Power Contest
Post: #49
RE: Raid on polygamist compound based upon false police report?
Would it have not made more sence to remove the men from the compound than to remove the women and children? The process seems backwards.
04-23-2008 05:50 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Bourgeois_Rage Away
That guy!
*

Posts: 6,965
Joined: Mar 2004
Reputation: 106
I Root For: UC & Bushmills
Location:

Folding@NCAAbbsNCAAbbs LUGDonatorsDonators
Post: #50
RE: Raid on polygamist compound based upon false police report?
They have to be sure. The abuse may be also coming from the mother, not just the father. Remember that the mothers in this situation are probably brain washed to believe that the fathers are doing what God intended. Who knows how they would treat their children if the fathers are suddenly not around.
04-23-2008 06:55 AM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
I45owl Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 18,374
Joined: Jun 2005
Reputation: 184
I Root For: Rice Owls
Location: Dallas, TX

New Orleans Bowl
Post: #51
RE: Raid on polygamist compound based upon false police report?
(sorry for the delay - this was typed out at home Saturday, but not submitted)

blah Wrote:I don't disagree that the girls should be given the choice. However my point was that at one time most of the above either were or are illegal. Did the acts themselves become different over time or did public opinion change over time?

As recently as the 1940's the average age for marriage for girls in India was 13. Now the average is almost 20.

First, I'll note that an interesting spin on one of your examples raises this question - if you lived in Saudi Arabia and wanted to belong to a Christian polygamist cult, would you build a ranch out in the desert and flout the law in your own little world? The kind of societies that outlaw religious expression (completely, as opposed to specific aspects - child rape, polygamy, virgin sacrifice being examples of ritualistic aspects) are also the kind of societies that will kill to enforce it. Germany outlawing the "Church" of Scientology could be considered an exception if the Church of Scientology could be considered a religion.

I also think your wrong on the facts of Saudi Arabia - my understanding is that they only outlaw houses of worship (including those that are "impromptu"), and don't outlaw being Christian or private worship (being Jewish is a different matter entirely).

Violating the law is distinct from civil disobedience. Rapists and other thugs routinely ignore the law and do what they want to do without regard to consequences. It's not that much different from what polygamist cults do.

It's not that you're not raising interesting questions. Ultimately I think the answer is that - no matter how much "fundamentalists" or others that hold dear to an array of various principles don't like it - morals are by definition evolving and relative to the context of a given society. 100 years ago, marrying 15 year olds may not have been morally repugnant to Christians in the United States - today it is. 200 years ago, slavery was not morally repugnant to many Christians in the United States - today it is. Certainly some moral issues are immutable across various societies and points in time in those societies - murder, theft, incest, etc. (one would think rape, but apparently not if you look at incidents of gang rape as tribal retribution in Afghanistan and Pakistan). Ethics should be immutable, but issues such as how much skin may be shown by a woman are moral issues and have little to do with ethics.
04-23-2008 07:16 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Fo Shizzle Offline
Pragmatic Classical Liberal
*

Posts: 42,023
Joined: Dec 2006
Reputation: 1203
I Root For: ECU PIRATES
Location: North Carolina

Balance of Power Contest
Post: #52
RE: Raid on polygamist compound based upon false police report?
I have changed my mind about these people since it is a fact that they have participated in the theft of my wages through the bilking of the welfare state. I have no pity for them.

I condemn the government for having a welfare state in the first place. Without this income redistribution system, these people could never have lived in the manner they do. Without a welfare state,only a VERY wealth man could support multilple wives. Yes...This is another example of the unintended consequences of the socialist policies of our government and its dogooder politicians.
04-24-2008 05:33 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
I45owl Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 18,374
Joined: Jun 2005
Reputation: 184
I Root For: Rice Owls
Location: Dallas, TX

New Orleans Bowl
Post: #53
RE: Raid on polygamist compound based upon false police report?
Fo Shizzle Wrote:I have changed my mind about these people since it is a fact that they have participated in the theft of my wages through the bilking of the welfare state. I have no pity for them.

Oh, well it's good that you saw the light. It's not as if they were raping children or anything. But, welfare - that's something to get riled up about
01-lauramac2
04-24-2008 06:57 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
WoodlandsOwl Offline
Up in the Woods
*

Posts: 11,813
Joined: Jun 2005
Reputation: 115
I Root For: Rice Owls
Location:

New Orleans Bowl
Post: #54
RE: Raid on polygamist compound based upon false police report?
Hambone10 Wrote:CPS got a call from someone claiming to be a minor, and claiming sexual assault. CPS investigated, and saw girls who appeared and represented themselves to be as young as 13-16 who were pregnant, had children and or claimed to be "married" to men as old as 50. Apparently, birth records are a bit sketchy... but when a girl claims to be 13, and appears to be 13... CPS is required to act.

The "raid" was not based on the call... the raid was based upon an investigation of the call. Whether or not that call was real, the pregnant 13 year old WAS real.

Turns out the call was fake after all as the Texas Rangers traced the call back to the nut job in Colorado.

What needs to be investigated is who put the nutjob up to it. She had previously called Abuse Hotlines in Washington State and Colorado. So why did she call Texas and target this group?

Not to sound racist.. but the woman in Colorado is African-American, and as far as I can tell from the television news reports there are NO African-Americans in the FDLS.

But wait... the ACLU is now claiming that the FLDS civil rights were violated.

"Jim Harrington, director of the Texas Civil Rights Project, said the fact the state launched the raid on what appears to have been a hoax tip without checking it out makes a "sham" out of constitutional protections against wrongful searches.

"To me, this is either gross incompetence or this is a religious vendetta," Harrington said."


http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5725898.html
04-24-2008 09:54 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Hambone10 Offline
Hooter
*

Posts: 40,235
Joined: Nov 2005
Reputation: 1275
I Root For: My Kids
Location: Right Down th Middle

New Orleans BowlDonatorsThe Parliament Awards
Post: #55
RE: Raid on polygamist compound based upon false police report?
The group is not being charged with what the caller claimed. They are being charged with what the CPS agent saw. The CPS agent was there because of the call, but I can't imagine that ANYONE would say that CPS was unreasonable in visiting the ranch based upon the call. CPS is not the police. They did not go to arrest the people based on the call. They went to see if there was any evidence that the call was real.

Isn't going to visit the ranch an important part of investigating the veracity of the claim... and given the claim... shouldn't you protect the "helpless" first??

Rather than being racist... I suspect that the woman may have been a victim of "organized" abuse herself... and targets groups like that... pure speculation... I haven't read, because what happens to her is immaterial to me as far as this group is concerned.

If someone calls to say that someone planted a bomb in a school, and the police find a truckload of illegal guns while investigating the claim.. does it MATTER in prosecuting the gun-runners that the call was a hoax??

I have a hard time believing that any agency set this woman up... if they had even a remote suspicion about child abuse on the ranch (like they saw what looked like a pregnant 13 yr old in town), they could have asked CPS to investigate themselves.
(This post was last modified: 04-24-2008 10:23 AM by Hambone10.)
04-24-2008 10:18 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Fo Shizzle Offline
Pragmatic Classical Liberal
*

Posts: 42,023
Joined: Dec 2006
Reputation: 1203
I Root For: ECU PIRATES
Location: North Carolina

Balance of Power Contest
Post: #56
RE: Raid on polygamist compound based upon false police report?
I45owl Wrote:
Fo Shizzle Wrote:I have changed my mind about these people since it is a fact that they have participated in the theft of my wages through the bilking of the welfare state. I have no pity for them.

Oh, well it's good that you saw the light. It's not as if they were raping children or anything. But, welfare - that's something to get riled up about
01-lauramac2

I honestly could care less about what they did in their society as long as it did not involve force...If that was occuring..then lock thier asses up...But...Now they have made me an accessory by using my stolen wages to make thier behavior possible...Yep..that riles me up,
04-24-2008 11:32 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
cb4029 Offline
The spoon that stirs the pot.
*

Posts: 18,793
Joined: Jun 2007
Reputation: 353
I Root For: Deez Nuts
Location: B'ham

Donators
Post: #57
RE: Raid on polygamist compound based upon false police report?
cb4029 Wrote:
Fo Shizzle Wrote:This "raid" should have never occured in the first place...The complaint should have been investigated in the same manner that any other complaint...not the wholesale kidnapping of 400+ childern from their families...I think these people are as delusional and destructive as any other religious fanatics...but unless it is proven that violence and force is used in their practices of their beliefs...Leave them the hell alone.

+1

I hope the state or city gets sued back to the stone age.05-stirthepot

05-bump
05-stirthepot

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24777095/

Quote:SAN ANGELO, Texas - A state appellate court ruled Thursday that child welfare officials had no right to seize hundreds of children from a polygamist sect's ranch on April 3.
05-22-2008 01:30 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Fo Shizzle Offline
Pragmatic Classical Liberal
*

Posts: 42,023
Joined: Dec 2006
Reputation: 1203
I Root For: ECU PIRATES
Location: North Carolina

Balance of Power Contest
Post: #58
RE: Raid on polygamist compound based upon false police report?
cb4029 Wrote:
cb4029 Wrote:
Fo Shizzle Wrote:This "raid" should have never occured in the first place...The complaint should have been investigated in the same manner that any other complaint...not the wholesale kidnapping of 400+ childern from their families...I think these people are as delusional and destructive as any other religious fanatics...but unless it is proven that violence and force is used in their practices of their beliefs...Leave them the hell alone.

+1

I hope the state or city gets sued back to the stone age.05-stirthepot

05-bump
05-stirthepot

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24777095/

Quote:SAN ANGELO, Texas - A state appellate court ruled Thursday that child welfare officials had no right to seize hundreds of children from a polygamist sect's ranch on April 3.

Yeah...This is one crazy story...Its not even clear now that the moms were on welfare...Im not sure what to think.
05-22-2008 05:20 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
WoodlandsOwl Offline
Up in the Woods
*

Posts: 11,813
Joined: Jun 2005
Reputation: 115
I Root For: Rice Owls
Location:

New Orleans Bowl
Post: #59
RE: Raid on polygamist compound based upon false police report?
Texas supreme Court ruled that CPS did not have the right to remove all the kids, and ordered them returned to their parents.

I bet once the families are reunited, they get the hell out of Texas PDQ...
05-30-2008 06:50 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Owl 69/70/75 Online
Just an old rugby coach
*

Posts: 80,597
Joined: Sep 2005
Reputation: 3189
I Root For: RiceBathChelsea
Location: Montgomery, TX

DonatorsNew Orleans Bowl
Post: #60
RE: Raid on polygamist compound based upon false police report?
My experience has been that if you want something screwed up, get the government involved.
If you want it screwed up beyond recognition, get CPS involved.

They jumped the gun and overreacted, and as a result they may have lost the chance to take the steps that needed to be taken. It is pretty clear to me that some of those kids needed to be removed, and if this opportunity is lost then they may disappear and the situation may never get corrected. It is also clear to me that removing all the kids in one fell swoop was overkill. By overstepping their bounds CPS and the law enforcement agencies blew it.

But what do you expect? CPS was involved.

There was a way to do this right. A competent agency would have figured it out, done it that way, and saved what I'm guessing may be 50 or so kids from a disgusting and terrible future. But pulling 400 kids out based on an anonymous tip (which may have been a hoax, though I'm not sure how relevant that is) is not the right way to do it. I just hope some legal way to remove the kids that really are being abused can be found--and quickly, before they are spirited away to another jurisdiction.
05-30-2008 07:56 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 




User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)


Copyright © 2002-2024 Collegiate Sports Nation Bulletin Board System (CSNbbs), All Rights Reserved.
CSNbbs is an independent fan site and is in no way affiliated to the NCAA or any of the schools and conferences it represents.
This site monetizes links. FTC Disclosure.
We allow third-party companies to serve ads and/or collect certain anonymous information when you visit our web site. These companies may use non-personally identifiable information (e.g., click stream information, browser type, time and date, subject of advertisements clicked or scrolled over) during your visits to this and other Web sites in order to provide advertisements about goods and services likely to be of greater interest to you. These companies typically use a cookie or third party web beacon to collect this information. To learn more about this behavioral advertising practice or to opt-out of this type of advertising, you can visit http://www.networkadvertising.org.
Powered By MyBB, © 2002-2024 MyBB Group.