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If Temple had not been expelled from the Big East...
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esayem Offline
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Post: #61
RE: If Temple had not been expelled from the Big East...
Funny how Temple was blocked by Nova but Rutgers made it in regardless of Seton Hall. Did SHU not want RU in the league or did they not care?
04-12-2008 10:27 AM
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frogman Offline
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Post: #62
RE: If Temple had not been expelled from the Big East...
esayem Wrote:Funny how Temple was blocked by Nova but Rutgers made it in regardless of Seton Hall. Did SHU not want RU in the league or did they not care?


I really can't understand how a school can want to be the only school in a conference from their state. I guess if you a state with a small populaton but northeastern states are huge. At one time, New York City supported 2 pro BB teams, 2 pro FB teams and @ pro Base ball teams. The State supported 3 pro FB teams if you count Buffalo.
Why would hall care about Rutgers. My thinking is that it would be a good rivalry for them in BB. SOme place that is easier to get to than Syracuse.
The "hurting recruiting" thing I think is lame. IN the old days the ACC took a lot of BB stars (Kenny Anderson, Stephon Mulbury) our of New York City high schools. The north east was not being out recruited by other schools in their state, they were being out recruited schools way out of their region. Rutgers has not helped or hurt SH's recruiting in BB.
Villanove and Temple share the same city. Temple actuallyhad a bigger reputation, and perhaps a bigger budget- based on their so-called Div 1 FB program. I think VIllanova had a little envy that another school in their (really rather small) city could have more going on than them.

Virginia didn't seem to mind Va. Tech joining the ACC. In fact they fourht for VT's inclusion.
(This post was last modified: 04-12-2008 12:24 PM by frogman.)
04-12-2008 12:23 PM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #63
RE: If Temple had not been expelled from the Big East...
frogman Wrote:
esayem Wrote:Funny how Temple was blocked by Nova but Rutgers made it in regardless of Seton Hall. Did SHU not want RU in the league or did they not care?


I really can't understand how a school can want to be the only school in a conference from their state. I guess if you a state with a small populaton but northeastern states are huge. At one time, New York City supported 2 pro BB teams, 2 pro FB teams and @ pro Base ball teams. The State supported 3 pro FB teams if you count Buffalo.
Why would hall care about Rutgers. My thinking is that it would be a good rivalry for them in BB. SOme place that is easier to get to than Syracuse.
The "hurting recruiting" thing I think is lame. IN the old days the ACC took a lot of BB stars (Kenny Anderson, Stephon Mulbury) our of New York City high schools. The north east was not being out recruited by other schools in their state, they were being out recruited schools way out of their region. Rutgers has not helped or hurt SH's recruiting in BB.
Villanove and Temple share the same city. Temple actuallyhad a bigger reputation, and perhaps a bigger budget- based on their so-called Div 1 FB program. I think VIllanova had a little envy that another school in their (really rather small) city could have more going on than them.

Virginia didn't seem to mind Va. Tech joining the ACC. In fact they fourht for VT's inclusion.

I don't get it either. Some schools are just scared of loosing some footing I guess. I think that is why UConn doesn't play UMass anymore. Calhoun says they have nothing to gain, but if they lose what will happen? They won't be mighty UConn anymore? Okay. I hope the Heels continue to play Davidson.....
04-12-2008 04:48 PM
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omniorange Offline
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Post: #64
RE: If Temple had not been expelled from the Big East...
esayem Wrote:I don't get it either. Some schools are just scared of loosing some footing I guess. I think that is why UConn doesn't play UMass anymore. Calhoun says they have nothing to gain, but if they lose what will happen? They won't be mighty UConn anymore? Okay. I hope the Heels continue to play Davidson.....

Maybe, I'm being dense, but I don't get the analogy here. First UConn and UMass play in two different states, unlike all of the other situations this thread has been dealing with - Temple/Villanova, Seton Hall/Rutgers, VT/Virginia and your new pairing, UNC/Davidson.

Second, it's not as though UNC is playing Davidson at their place. The games in that series tend to be at Chapel Hill or in Charlotte. And while Charlotte is a hop, skip, and a jump away from Davidson, it isn't as though that is exactly a difficult place to find UNC fans either. 03-wink

Lastly, Davidson plays in a low mid-major conference whereas UMass plays in perhaps the highest mid-major conference of all.

I would think the better analogy here is simply Tobacco Road itself, with all four high-major North Carolina schools in the same conference.

Cheers,
Neil
04-12-2008 09:16 PM
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panite Offline
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Post: #65
RE: If Temple had not been expelled from the Big East...
esayem Wrote:Funny how Temple was blocked by Nova but Rutgers made it in regardless of Seton Hall. Did SHU not want RU in the league or did they not care?

I think the difference here as far as the vote is that the BE originally wanted Rutgers not Seton Hall. Seton Hall was choosen when Rutgers originally turned down the BE as a charter member to stay with Penn State in the Eastern 8. Rutgers was re-approached for FB only when the BE and Micky T. needed teams for the FB side to keep charter member FB schools and Miami happy when BE FB was started in the 90's. They were admitted for all sports in the ND compormise later in the 90's. Seton hall did not have the BB friends to block their all sports membership or really just didn't care like Nova does about keeping a territory to itself.04-cheers
(This post was last modified: 04-13-2008 12:17 AM by panite.)
04-13-2008 12:14 AM
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bitcruncher Offline
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Post: #66
RE: If Temple had not been expelled from the Big East...
The entire structure of The BEast (to use a nickname that's apropoit on so many levels it's unreal) is setup to minimalize any attempt to organize football schools in the east. The BEast destroyed more than one attempt, and continues to obstruct it to this very day. I'm sick of this hybrid monstrosity. The football schools need to determine their own fate... without interferance from parties disinterested in playing Division 1A football in the conference.

Upgrade, join for all sports, or get lost, is my sentiment. It always will be. 07-coffee3
04-13-2008 08:25 AM
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Post: #67
RE: If Temple had not been expelled from the Big East...
frogman Wrote:
esayem Wrote:Funny how Temple was blocked by Nova but Rutgers made it in regardless of Seton Hall. Did SHU not want RU in the league or did they not care?


I really can't understand how a school can want to be the only school in a conference from their state. I guess if you a state with a small populaton but northeastern states are huge. At one time, New York City supported 2 pro BB teams, 2 pro FB teams and @ pro Base ball teams. The State supported 3 pro FB teams if you count Buffalo.
Why would hall care about Rutgers. My thinking is that it would be a good rivalry for them in BB. SOme place that is easier to get to than Syracuse.
The "hurting recruiting" thing I think is lame. IN the old days the ACC took a lot of BB stars (Kenny Anderson, Stephon Mulbury) our of New York City high schools. The north east was not being out recruited by other schools in their state, they were being out recruited schools way out of their region. Rutgers has not helped or hurt SH's recruiting in BB.
Villanove and Temple share the same city. Temple actuallyhad a bigger reputation, and perhaps a bigger budget- based on their so-called Div 1 FB program. I think VIllanova had a little envy that another school in their (really rather small) city could have more going on than them.

Virginia didn't seem to mind Va. Tech joining the ACC. In fact they fourht for VT's inclusion.

A) If memory serves, UVA didn't want Va Tech in the ACC, but the Governor of VA did. If UVA voted "no" on the Va Tech issue then the govenor threathened to cut funding to UVAs athletic budget

B) I'm not ready to say that Temple has/had a bigger reputation then Nova in basketball, but I always thought that having the two dominat schools in the Big 5 would have been a good thing for the Big East. Certainly the Pac 10 has never been hurt by having USC and UCLA. If Nova ever made the jump in football, then this move would have made even more sense



Jackson
(This post was last modified: 04-13-2008 09:02 AM by Jackson1011.)
04-13-2008 09:00 AM
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panite Offline
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Post: #68
RE: If Temple had not been expelled from the Big East...
bitcruncher Wrote:The entire structure of The BEast (to use a nickname that's apropoit on so many levels it's unreal) is setup to minimalize any attempt to organize football schools in the east. The BEast destroyed more than one attempt, and continues to obstruct it to this very day. I'm sick of this hybrid monstrosity. The football schools need to determine their own fate... without interferance from parties disinterested in playing Division 1A football in the conference.

Upgrade, join for all sports, or get lost, is my sentiment. It always will be. 07-coffee3

:iagree:Yes I agree, however are the FB schools willing to walk away from 42+ million in income. I really don't think that schools like Pitt, who tore its campus stadium down to replace it with a BB arena, and Cuse are ready to part ways with the current hybrid and NYC BB market unless they receive invites from from the B-10 or the ACC. Right now the ACC door is closed so they will wait to see if ND, Missouri, or even Rugers get that B-10 spot ahead of them. I also think Conn would think twice about leaving too. It would not be the AD's or the coaches doing the hedging. It would be the CONSERVATIVE presidents where the vote counts that would be afraid to make the leap. Their ultra conservative thinking is the reason that this conference has not exploded as a football conference while still bowing to the wishes of the BB only group and ND.

I don't know if the BE would have ever stopped the ACC expansion especially with Miami for geographical reasons. But after the expansion this hybrid could have been set up for FB expansion knowing the 12 game schedule was about to happen with by adding 3 all sports schools and no BB schools.

Cuse
Conn
Rutgers
Pitt
WV
L'ville
Cinn
USF

G'town
Nova
ND
St. Johns
Providence
Seton Hall

This 14 team conference would have been a great stable start for a couple of years and then add a ninth or tenth team for all sports from:

UCF
Memphis
ECU
Temple
UMass

If the BE added one team for a 15 team conference then they would have their 4 home and 4 away FB games. Adding Memphis first would add to the BB side and the bowl side for added revenue. If they added UCF afterwards for Pac-10 round robin FB model the teams would only be scurring for 2 out of conference games and gain another Florida market as well as a travel partner for USF. The other 3 teams would have to wait to see if 12 team FB conferences became mandatory with a playoff as part of a BCS playoff system. Until then the BE would stay as is with the B-10, and Pac-10 without a championship game.

If the BCS forces 12 team conferences the BE looses either ND or another school to the B-10. That opens the door for 2 of the 3 remaining teams from Temple, UMass, or ECU. If the B-10 picks Pitt bring Temple to cover the PA FB market. If they take Rutgers bring in Temple also to cover the Mid-Atlantic, NJ-Eastern Pa market. If the B10- takes Cuse replace them with UMass to secure the New England and upper NY State region. ECU would be in for a new market in the Tidal Basin and ACC territory. Of course this would ballon the BE to a 17 team conference but that is where the BE is headed now if the conference adds one more school for all sports or FB only to keep the FB schools happy and the conference in tact as it is now. This new conference would still maintain a lucrative BB presence as well as having a lucrative FB market too. 04-cheers
(This post was last modified: 04-13-2008 09:41 AM by panite.)
04-13-2008 09:36 AM
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bitcruncher Offline
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Post: #69
RE: If Temple had not been expelled from the Big East...
The football schools won't be walking away from diddly. The deal signed by MT on behalf of the Big East is for the ENTIRE Big East, and not just the non-football schools. If the football schools go their own way, all negotiations begin again with the respective parties involved. The football schools hold enough weight on their own, without the non-football schools, to negotiate a good deal for all-sports based on the past performance of members.

Syracuse will be the only school that might balk at this. If so, I say move on anyway. There are enough schools that would jump at the chance to join us that we wouldn't notice. I don't think the Orange would go against us. But they could.

Still, the only logical solution is a split. Any other solution is a short term fix that will be harder to rectify when the time comes to fix the problems that arise from the short term solution. That's stupid.
04-13-2008 10:11 AM
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DFW HOYA Offline
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Post: #70
RE: If Temple had not been expelled from the Big East...
panite Wrote:But after the expansion this hybrid could have been set up for FB expansion knowing the 12 game schedule was about to happen with by adding 3 all sports schools and no BB schools.

However likely or unlikely that scenario was, the fact that schools like Boston College were working to submarine the non-IA schools in 2003 quickly eroded any trust that this wouldn't happen again in the future. In short, getting caught ultimately forced them into adding Marquette and DePaul.
04-13-2008 02:06 PM
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Krocker Krapp Offline
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Post: #71
RE: If Temple had not been expelled from the Big East...
The reason Rutgers got into the Big East over the objections of Seton Hall, but Temple did not make it in over the objections of Villanova, was, as I stated before, that the Catholic basketball schools were forced into choosing the two least of four evils. A gun was pointed at their heads in 1994 and they had to pick two new members out of Rutgers, Temple, West Virginia, and Virginia Tech. If they had not done so, the football schools would have left the Big East and formed a separate league at that time. Look at the article posted by Catsclaw once more.

It was simply a case that Pitt probably went to bat for West Virginia, Rutgers was seen as having more upside than Temple even at that time, and no one was particularly enamored with Virginia Tech. Notre Dame also gained admission as part of a compromise with the Catholic basketball members to end the standoff that had developed. The unbalanced schedule created by having 13 teams is the only reason the Hocakes eventually gained full membership in 2002. As for the Owls, they were left behind again, and that helped seal their downward spiral.

1979
Basketball - 5 (Connecticut, Georgetown, Providence, Seton Hall, St. John's)
Football - 2 (BC, Syracuse)

1980
Basketball - 6 (Connecticut, Georgetown, Providence, Seton Hall, St. John's, Villanova)
Football - 2 (BC, Syracuse)

1982
Basketball - 6 (Connecticut, Georgetown, Providence, Seton Hall, St. John's, Villanova)
Football - 3 (BC, Pittsburgh, Syracuse)

1990
Basketball - 6 (Connecticut, Georgetown, Providence, Seton Hall, St. John's, Villanova)
Football - 4 (BC, Miami, Pittsburgh, Syracuse)

1995
Basketball - 7 (Connecticut, Georgetown, Notre Dame, Providence, Seton Hall, St. John's, Villanova)
Football - 6 (BC, Miami, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, Syracuse, West Virginia)

2002
Basketball - 7 (Connecticut, Georgetown, Notre Dame, Providence, Seton Hall, St. John's, Villanova)
Football - 7 (BC, Miami, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, Syracuse, Virginia Tech, West Virginia)

2004
Basketball - 6 (Georgetown, Notre Dame, Providence, Seton Hall, St. John's, Villanova)
Football - 6 (BC, Connecticut, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, Syracuse, West Virginia)

2005
Basketball - 8 (DePaul, Georgetown, Marquette, Notre Dame, Providence, Seton Hall, St. John's, Villanova)
Football - 8 (Cincinnati, Connecticut, Louisville, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, South Florida, Syracuse, West Virginia)

Why do people keep trying to revise history? Virginia did not want Virginia Tech in the ACC. The governor of Virginia got the Hocakes into the ACC via political pressure. Syracuse and BC would have been voted into the ACC in July 2003 if he had not intervened. The Big East was also never going to settle on an unbalanced hybrid in the wake of the ACC raid. Even in 1994, the Catholic basketball schools were saying they did not want to be outvoted, so there was just no way they would have voluntarily put themselves into the voting minority in 2003.

The voting balance in the Big East has always been in favor of the Catholic basketball schools or else evenly split. If the ACC raid had not taken place, however, Connecticut would have eventually swung the voting balance to an 8-6 advantage for the football schools. Miami and the ACC, of course, made sure that this would not occur. The BCS is never going to force any conference to do anything, the Big Ten and Pac-10 guarantee this, so that fantasy needs to die. If the Big East adds one new member, it will add two, 17 teams is never happening.
04-13-2008 04:40 PM
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DFW HOYA Offline
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Post: #72
RE: If Temple had not been expelled from the Big East...
One small correction--Villanova played I-A football through the 1981 season, so it would have been a "football school" prior to 1982.
04-13-2008 04:45 PM
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Krocker Krapp Offline
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Post: #73
RE: If Temple had not been expelled from the Big East...
DFW HOYA Wrote:One small correction--Villanova played I-A football through the 1981 season, so it would have been a "football school" prior to 1982.
Oh well. That one year does not make any impact on the point of the list - which was to show that the football schools have never had a voting majority in the history of the Big East Conference - something that is unlikely to ever change as long as the current type of configuration is maintained.
04-13-2008 05:10 PM
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David Krysakowski Offline
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Post: #74
RE: If Temple had not been expelled from the Big East...
If it had been Syracuse instead of Virginia Tech expansion would not have been approved. Duke, North Carolina, NC State would not have approved of it. It prusaded NC State for it.
(This post was last modified: 04-14-2008 09:20 PM by David Krysakowski.)
04-14-2008 09:18 PM
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Post: #75
RE: If Temple had not been expelled from the Big East...
David Krysakowski Wrote:If it had been Syracuse instead of Virginia Tech expansion would not have been approved. Duke, North Carolina, NC State would not have approved of it. It prusaded NC State for it.

Virginia's vote - not NC State - was contingent on VT. NC State voted no when BC was considered for #12 AFTER Miami and VT were already approved. Mary Ann Fox (NCSU's president) was rumored to vote no on BC to give ND one more chance at accepting an invitation to the ACC.

In September of that year when one more team was needed to get to 12, all the ACC members voted yes (IIRC).
04-15-2008 04:01 AM
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