(10-07-2009 04:10 AM)frogman Wrote:  And just to add someone mentioned BE tournament titles: OF course this leaves out CInCY and Louisville but if we look at UCONN and SYR. UCONN has six BE tournament titles (1990,1996,1998,1999,2002,2004) and SYR has five (1981, 1988,1992,2005,2006). When you look at BE tournament title game appearences SYR has 14 and UCONN has 9. That means Syracuse has finished second in the tournament 9 times and UCONN finished second 3 times. UCONN #2 finishes (1995, 2000, 2003). SYracuse #2 finishes (1980, 1984, 1986,1987,1989,1990,1993,1998,2009).

Georgetown has seven BE tournament titles most recent in 2007 and finished #2 in 2008.

You can't punish theCuse for losing all those tournament games to Gtown. Back in the day Ewing took Gtown to the NCAA finals three out of four years. They were good. We were almost as good but clearly SYRacuse has been the most consistently good charter BE Basketball team throughout the BE's history and is still a power in the BE today. UCONN dominated in the 1990's but look at the CUSE's #2 finishes in the 1990's. Consistency is what makes a champion. And Syracuse is the most consistent BB program the charter BE has had. I say the CUSE is number one.

-O-K I'm ready for SF Husky's reply-

Haha.. you are funny. You make some good points. Here is my reply:

Here is UCONN's resume in the BE formation. You decide if there is another program who is better right now or more dominate in its history:

Head Coach: Jim Calhoun
Most Victories: 34 in 1999
NCAA Tournament Appearances: 28*
Last NCAA Appearance: 2009
National Championships: (2) 1999 & 2004
Final Fours: (3) 1999, 2004, 2009
Elite 8 appearances (8): 1990, 1995, 1998, 1999, 2002, 2004, 2006, 2009
Big East Regular Season Championships: (10) 1990, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1998, 1999, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006
Big East Tournament Championships: (6) 1990, 1996, 1998, 1999, 2002, 2004
NIT Appearances: 11
NIT Championships: 1 1988
All-Americans: 13
Drafted Players: 33
Players Currently In The NBA: 13 (ranks tied for 1st amongst all colleges)
Basketball Hall Of Famers: 1 (coach Jim Calhoun)

You left me nothing to compare those stats to.
UCONN hasn't seen the BE tournament finals since 2004. Syracuse has been to the tournament finals three times since then.

NIT appareances?- I think St. Johns has more and will probably add another this year. SYR grad Derick COleman was the highest paid NBA player at the height of his career. Carmelo Anthony is the biggest star in the NBA today out of the Big East. Last year, you put Thabeet in the NBA at #2. We put in Flynn at #6. UCONN was good in the 90s but the 90's are over. The 6 OT game was a fitting end to UCONN's BE legacy.


So sit back relax. Boeheim is about to teach Calhoun how to be on top, stay on top and how to go out on top.

(10-07-2009 04:45 AM)frogman Wrote:  You left me nothing to compare those stats to.
UCONN hasn't seen the BE tournament finals since 2004. Syracuse has been to the tournament finals three times since then.

NIT appareances?- I think St. Johns has more and will probably add another this year. SYR grad Derick COleman was the highest paid NBA player at the height of his career. Carmelo Anthony is the biggest star in the NBA today out of the Big East. Last year, you put Thabeet in the NBA at #2. We put in Flynn at #6. UCONN was good in the 90s but the 90's are over. The 6 OT game was a fitting end to UCONN's BE legacy.


So sit back relax. Boeheim is about to teach Calhoun how to be on top, stay on top and how to go out on top.

Here is Cuse's resume since the BE:

NCAA Tournament champions (1) - 2003
NCAA Tournament runner up (2) - 1987, 1996
NCAA Tournament Final Four (3) - 1987, 1996, 2003
NCAA Tournament Elite Eight (4) 1987, 1989, 1996, 2003
BE tournament championships (5): 1981, 1988, 1992, 2005, 2006

GTOWN's resume:

NCAA Tournament champions (1) 1984
NCAA Tournament Final Four (4) 1982, 1984, 1985, 2007
NCAA Elite eight (9)?
Conference tournament champions (8) :1979, 1980, 1982, 1984, 1985, 1987, 1989, 2007
Conference regular season champions (4) 1984, 1989, 2007, 2008

You really are stretching it quite a bit. You can have your 6 OT win. End of our legacy? You got to be joking right? You got an amazing win against a much better team without one of its best player (Dyson) so just enjoy it for what it is. Wait until you see who will run with the big dogs again this year in the Big East. We like our final 4 appearance much better. As for NCAA resume, there is no debate. UCONN is by far the most dominate BE program in its history based on conference championship, BET championships (only Gtown has more), NCAA titles, NCAA Final 4, NCAA Elite 8, # of NBA players, # of All Americans etc.

Coupled that with UCONN's women program, I would say UCONN is the most dominate basketball BE program period.

As for Jimmy B vs. Calhoun, I will take Calhoun anytime thank you.

You'll take your final 4 apparences. You have three and Syracuse has three according to your stats. (Syracuse actually has four- you missed 1975 NCAA final four efore there was a BE) So what's your point? Georgetown had three in four years. Not only final fours but title games losing to Villanova and NOrth Carolina with some kid named Jordan.
You say UCONN is most dominate BE program "in its history" based on "BET Championships" you have six GTown has seven. You've been to 9 championship games Syracuse has been to 14. NCAA titles- Yea you have two NCAA titles in two NCAA title apparences. Syracuse has one in three NCAA title game apparences. How do you define Dominate and "no debate." There's plenty to debate if you're talking BE history and you're starting off with UCONN. Unless, of course, you are talking about your women's team. Then there's no debate. But if you are talking about the men's team- I guess there is still no debate, you are flat out wrong.

(10-07-2009 05:30 AM)frogman Wrote:  You'll take your final 4 apparences. You have three and Syracuse has three according to your stats. So what's your point? Georgetown had three in four years. Not only final fours but title games losing to Villanova and NOrth Carolina with some kid named Jordan.
You say UCONN is most dominate BE program "in its history" based on "BET Championships" you have six GTown has seven. You've been to 9 championship games Syracuse has been to 14. NCAA titles- Yea you have two NCAA titles in two NCAA title apparences. Syracuse has one in three NCAA title game apparences. How do you define Dominate and "no debate." There's plenty to debate if you're talking BE history and you're starting off with UCONN. Unless, of course, you are talking about your women's team. Then there's no debate. But if you are talking about the men's team- I guess there is still no debate, you are flat out wrong.

Facts don't lie. Go back and check again. While BET is nice, NCAA performance is better. Look at all the regular season/BET titles. Look at number of Elite 8/Final 4/Final appearances. Look at number of all star NBA players etc. Combine all those factors together and evaluate.

Cuse is certainly one of the elite programs in the BE and in the country, UCONN just got a better resume. I don't know how else to explain it to you.

You must be joking when you said UCONN is on decline right? Next year's team will have Kemba Walker, Stanley Robinson and Jerome Dyson back. All three of those guys will be in the NBA. They will be young but the nucleus is intact. Like other Calhoun teams, they will gel before the NCAA tournament and make another run.

BTW, no one remembers how many times you played in the BET title game. Ask Pitt how many people care about that.

(10-07-2009 05:38 AM)SF Husky Wrote:  Facts don't lie. Go back and check again. While BET is nice, NCAA performance is better. Look at all the regular season/BET titles. Look at number of Elite 8/Final 4/Final appearances. Look at number of all star NBA players etc. Combine all those factors together and evaluate.

Cuse is certainly one of the elite programs in the BE and in the country, UCONN just got a better resume. I don't know how else to explain it to you.

You must be joking when you said UCONN is on decline right? Next year's team will have Kemba Walker, Stanley Robinson and Jerome Dyson back. All three of those guys will be in the NBA. They will be young but the nucleus is intact. Like other Calhoun teams, they will gel before the NCAA tournament and make another run.

What facts are you reading. You dismiss the BET and you're talking about dominating the BE. The BET is key there. And if you talk about NCAA final fours UCONN has three- two title games. Syracuse has four counting 1975 and three title games. Hardly makes UCONN look "dominant." Georgetown has four final fours, three in the Ewing era and one in 2007. SO that's more than UCONN so how is Uconn dominant over BE history.
Does UCONN have a single NBA Hall of Famer? Anybody headed to the hall of fame out of your ga-zillion players in the NBA? I didn't think so. Gtown can boast Ewing and Iverson (future). Syracuse has Dave Bing. UCONN had nobody on that level- so far. So jut like football you still got work to do.

Actually Gtown has eight BET titles to UCONN's six. So how is UCONN dominant in the "history" of the BE? If Gtown wasn't there, Syracuse would have had more. They were the only school standing in our way. UCONN was just a baby in those days. Hardly dominant in the "history" of the BE. With Georgetown's resurgence and Syracuse's resurgence, UCONN has to drop the word "dominant" from any discussion about BE basketball HISTORY.

Also Syracuse dominates the BE and the nation in BB attendence. ranked #2 just behind Kentucky. All those fans can't be wrong.

(11-20-2007 03:03 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  Rank from top to bottom how these seven programs rank on the national scale. All are elite or near elite programs...rank your list using these criteria: National Championships, Final Fours, NCAA Appearances, BE Championships, NIT Stuff, All Americans, TV draw, Fan Following, What Have You Done For Me Lately?, Home Attendance, and Overall Wins/Winning Percentage.

My list is from an overall historical perspective for two reasons. First, nearly every list that tries to rank college hoops programs does so from a historical perspective. Second, it is my opinion that sustained success (over several decades) should be rewarded higher than success in the recent (last ten years) or short-term (decade) since prolonged success is much more difficult to achieve than recent or short-term success.

1. Louisville
- 2 NCAA Titles
- 2 title game appearances
- 8 Final Fours (Tied for 6th in nation)
- 11 Elite Eights
- 35 NCAA appearances (Tied for 5th in nation)
- 62 NCAA victories (7th in nation)
- Only school in the nation to have claimed the championship of three major national post-season tournaments including the 1948 NAIB championship, the 1956 NIT title and the 1980 and 1986 NCAA championships.
- 14 NIT appearances
- Tied for 9th in the national in terms of all-time win %
- Times ranked in the AP poll: 429 (7th most)
- Holds record for 2nd longest streak of consecutive winning seasons (46)
- 59 players in the 1,000+ points club (2nd in nation)
- 18 All-Americans and has produced 59 NBA players
- Most profitable program in college basketball 3 years running.
- Top 10 attendance: last 27 years straight
- Top 5 attendance: last 22 years straight
- Almost always ranked as the ~7th All-time program in NCAA history by national media.

2. Syracuse
- 1 NCAA title
- 3 Title game appearances
- 4 Final Fours
- 7 Elite Eights
- 32 NCAA appearances (Tied for 8th in the nation)
- 50 NCAA victories (8th in nation)
- 11 NIT appearances
- 7 Big East regular season championships and 5 Big East post-season championships
- 6th in the national in terms of all-time win %
- 37 consecutive winning seasons
- 21 All-Americans and produced 33 NBA players
- Top 5/10 in attendance for at least the last 25 years


2.5 UConn
- 2 NCAA titles
- 3 Final Fours
- 6 Elite Eights
- 28 NCAA appearances (12th in the nation)
- 46 NCAA victories (11th in nation)
- 11 NIT appearances with 1 NIT championship
- 10 Big East Regular Season Championships and 6 Big East Tournament championships
- Not in Top 25 in terms of all-time win %
- 13 All-Americans and has produced 33 NBA players

3.5 Saint John's
- 0 NCAA championships but 1 championship game appearance
- 2 Final Fours
- 6 Elite Eights
- 26 NCAA tournament appearances (tied for 19th overall)
- 27 NCAA victories (33rd in nation)
- 25 NIT appearances with 5 NIT championship
- 8th in the nation in all time win % and 7th in all-time total wins
- 11 All-Americans and has produced 59 NBA players


4a. Cincinnati
- 2 NCAA championships
- 6 Final Fours
- 8 Elite Eights
- 24 NCAA appearances (tied for 22nd in the nation)
- 40 NCAA victories (tied for 15th in nation)
- NIT appearances with NIT championship
- 17th in the nation in terms of all-time win %
- 29 All-Americans


4b. Georgetown
- 1 NCAA championships
- 5 Final Fours
- 9 Elite Eights
- 25 NCAA appearances (21st in the nation)
- 45 NCAA victories (12th in nation)
- 11 NIT appearances with 0 NIT championship
- Not in Top 25 in terms of all-time win %
- 41 NBA players produced


5. Villanova
- 1 NCAA championships
- 3 Final Fours (1971 is not counted as it was vacated by the NCAA)
- 11 Elite Eights (1971 not counted for reason above)
- 29 NCAA appearances (tied for 9th in the nation)
- 48 NCAA victories (9th in nation)
- 17 NIT appearances with 1 NIT Championship
- Not in Top 25 in terms of all-time win %
- 17 All-Americans produced 45 NBA players


6. Marquette
- 1 NCAA championships
- 3 Final Fours
- 6 Elite Eights
- 27 NCAA appearances (tied for 18th in the nation)
- 34 NCAA victories (22nd in nation)
- 14 NIT appearances with 1 NIT championship
- Not in Top 25 in terms of all-time win %
- produced 29 NBA players

1 UConn
2 Syracuse
3 Georgetown
4 Villanova
5 St Johns( I know this is a what have you done for me lately world. But picking St. Johns below 8th or 9th is like picking Syracuse 7th in Football)
6 Loiusville
7 Cincinnati
8 Marquette
9 Pitt
10 WVU

How can a school with 29 all american's be 7th in your list, animus? Sorry, St. Johns is nowhere close to UC. Neither is Villanova or Georgetown. All have had a lot of success, but none can match Cincinnati.

I can see UConn being high on the list due to their success over the past 20 years. Obviously Syracuse and Louisville are 2 programs that have always been at or near the top of the college basketball world.

1. Louisville - Titles are where it is at...
2. Syracuse
3. UConn - nobody in the conference has been better for the past 20 years
4. Cincinnati
5. Georgetown
6. Villanova
7. St. Johns
8. Marquette
9. ???
10. ???

Tough to say... nobody really differentiates themselves much at that point. I'd like to see the numbers for Depaul, Notre Dame, Providence, and Seton Hall before annoiting Pitt or WVU at 9 or 10. All of them have had some great success over their histories.

I like UofL07 ranking of the top three. It seems like a fair comparison.

Syracuse is 6th in the nation in all time win percentage. UCONN is not in the top 25. Syracuse as more final fours and more elite eights than UCONN. OMG! DId SF Husky just faint? Syr is ahead of UCONN in NCAA victories. Of course this list doesn't consider Hall or Famers or 14 BET title game apparences by the CUse compared to 9 for UCONN. And it would be safe to give UCONN a solid #3 instead of a #2b. If you look over the history of both clubs, there no one category- out side of two National titles to one title that UCONN has over Syracuse. But the CUSE finished as the number two team in the nation twice and that one point loss on a Keith Smart jumper against Indiana comes back to haunt us.

I'd say Cincy comes before St. Johns. Cincy has two national titles.


But there's still a lot more history to be made.

How do you rank Final Four before and after 64 or 65 fields? There are more games now than back then. You would think it much harder to accomplish now then before 1985 plus kids leave early. It’s not a one to one comparison maybe we should drop everything before 1985. It would be like football before division I classification with 85 scholarships cap with one that has 64 caps. Do you look at FCS and FBS at the same level? That you can compare the two as one? These are not things that you can over look. Be reasonable

Programs that have success year after year and very competitive in a league among the top in the country or do you think every league compete at the same level?

(10-07-2009 09:26 AM)SO#1 Wrote:  How do you rank Final Four before and after 64 or 65 fields? There are more games now than back then. You would think it much harder to accomplish now then before 1985 plus kids leave early. It’s not a one to one comparison maybe we should drop everything before 1985.

I disagree. I think NCAA was much harder with less teams. Now the first two rounds are a joke. You can play Stony Brook or Liberty Univesity in the first round. Today's tournament doesn't really start until the sweet 16. More teams do not mean more competitive. In fact it means less competitive in the first two rounds. You have to give more weight prior to the 64 teams slate because at that time victories were harder to come by. Only the best teams made the tournament. Today just about everybody gets in.

Because kids leave early means you have less experienced players on a team. That makes it easier. UNC won last year because nobody left early. The teams that knocked off UNC in the Hansborough era all had their stars in the NBA. UNC had the most quality seniors. Kids leaving early makes the tournament easier there are fewer NBA players in the tournament. Ewing stayed four years. Today he would have left GT as a freshman.

(10-07-2009 09:26 AM)SO#1 Wrote:  How do you rank Final Four before and after 64 or 65 fields? There are more games now than back then. You would think it much harder to accomplish now then before 1985 plus kids leave early. It’s not a one to one comparison maybe we should drop everything before 1985. It would be like football before division I classification with 85 scholarships cap with one that has 64 caps. Do you look at FCS and FBS at the same level? That you can compare the two as one? These are not things that you can over look. Be reasonable

Programs that have success year after year and very competitive in a league among the top in the country or do you think every league compete at the same level?

Because they can't stand the fact UCONN is better program than theirs today so they have to use a different criteria for the ranking. Any top 20 program today would probably win most of the championships when teams have mostly 5 white players on the floor. The quality of play is night and day. It is not exactly apples to apples comparison. I don't know why people even bring that era up.

As for most dominate program throughout BE history, there is no debate. The record speaks for itself. What does fan support has to do with anything?

(10-07-2009 07:52 AM)mlb Wrote:  How can a school with 29 all american's be 7th in your list, animus? Sorry, St. Johns is nowhere close to UC. Neither is Villanova or Georgetown. All have had a lot of success, but none can match Cincinnati.

I can see UConn being high on the list due to their success over the past 20 years. Obviously Syracuse and Louisville are 2 programs that have always been at or near the top of the college basketball world.

1. Louisville - Titles are where it is at...
2. Syracuse
3. UConn - nobody in the conference has been better for the past 20 years
4. Cincinnati
5. Georgetown
6. Villanova
7. St. Johns
8. Marquette
9. ???
10. ???

Tough to say... nobody really differentiates themselves much at that point. I'd like to see the numbers for Depaul, Notre Dame, Providence, and Seton Hall before annoiting Pitt or WVU at 9 or 10. All of them have had some great success over their histories.

Sorry MLB. I'm not a big Hoops fan too much these days. But 7th on my list wasn't a knock on Cincy by any means. I remember your 90's run alot because I was in school then and followed it more. The Big East so deep in prestige and that its really hard to give a fair ranking on each and every team. And you may be right DePaul and Notre Dame could easily be ranked above Pitt and WVU. But from Nova to St Johns to Georgetown to Syracuse to Loiusville, each school can easily give reasons why they have the best program in the Big East and it would be fair to give each of them a stake at #1. As far as history and prestige is concerned I might think the Big East is deeper than SEC Football. Yikes

Sorry Animus, still can't agree about Georgetown or St. John's being able to claim to be number 1. They just don't stack up... either historically or more recently. I don't think there should be much debate about the contenders in the top 5, or really the top 2. Starting with 6 through about 14 I think you can have a lot of debate...

(10-07-2009 09:26 AM)SO#1 Wrote:  It’s not a one to one comparison maybe we should drop everything before 1985.

The problem with doing this is:

- You have to throw out 10 out UCLA's 11 titles as well as all the records John Wooden set as a head coach.

- You have to throw out 4 of Indiana's 5 championships as well as Bob Knight's undefeated seasons in 74-75.

- You'd have to throw out 4 of UK's 6 championships and the accomplishments of Adolph Rupp (yes he was a rascist SOB but that doesn't mean he wasn't a good coach).

- You'd lose important historical information on teams like the Phi Slamma Jammas, the Ewing led Hoya teams, etc.

- The Big East would become a much less respected conference. Many of our teams would lose national championships (Louisville, Georgetown, Villanova, Marquette, Cincinnati, etc) as well final fours and tournament appearences.

- It also devalues championships since every time the tournament format changes, you'd have to throw previous accomplishments thrown out the window. The true value of a national championship is that no matter when it was earned, you are always going to be considered THE national champion for that year.

- It also would ignore the historical reasons why some programs are were they are (i.e. why some programs can pull big name coaches, why some programs are considered elite even by non-hoops fans, etc). UK, IU, UCLA, Louisville, Syracuse, etc aren't considered to be elite programs because of what they've done over the last 25 years...they are considered great because of the accomplishments they have earned over the last 50-60-70 years. You can't just cut out 50-60 years of historical information (are we going to say that UGA, Alabama, Auburn, Tennessee, Michigan, Notre Dame, PSU, etc aren't elite football schools because their national titles were earned before the BCS NC game came about?)

Very well said UofL o7. How can anyone in their right mind, and with a straight face try to discount what teams have accomplished before 1985? Just silly.

I don't see how anyone can rank Cincinnati outside the top 5 programs in the BE when you gauging teams on all-time accomplishments.

(10-07-2009 12:26 PM)SF Husky Wrote:  

(10-07-2009 09:26 AM)SO#1 Wrote:  How do you rank Final Four before and after 64 or 65 fields? There are more games now than back then. You would think it much harder to accomplish now then before 1985 plus kids leave early. It’s not a one to one comparison maybe we should drop everything before 1985. It would be like football before division I classification with 85 scholarships cap with one that has 64 caps. Do you look at FCS and FBS at the same level? That you can compare the two as one? These are not things that you can over look. Be reasonable

Programs that have success year after year and very competitive in a league among the top in the country or do you think every league compete at the same level?

Because they can't stand the fact UCONN is better program than theirs today so they have to use a different criteria for the ranking. Any top 20 program today would probably win most of the championships when teams have mostly 5 white players on the floor. The quality of play is night and day. It is not exactly apples to apples comparison. I don't know why people even bring that era up.

As for most dominate program throughout BE history, there is no debate. The record speaks for itself. What does fan support has to do with anything?

Finally we agree. Syracuse is #6 in the nation on all time winning percentage. There is no debate on the best charter member of the BE throughout the BEs history and it most dominate team. Though no singe team ever really dominated the BE, Syr came closest to doing that throughout the BE's entire history. Syr was never consider less than number one or two. We were never number seven in BB like UCONN was.

(10-07-2009 03:22 PM)frogman Wrote:  

(10-07-2009 12:26 PM)SF Husky Wrote:  

(10-07-2009 09:26 AM)SO#1 Wrote:  How do you rank Final Four before and after 64 or 65 fields? There are more games now than back then. You would think it much harder to accomplish now then before 1985 plus kids leave early. It’s not a one to one comparison maybe we should drop everything before 1985. It would be like football before division I classification with 85 scholarships cap with one that has 64 caps. Do you look at FCS and FBS at the same level? That you can compare the two as one? These are not things that you can over look. Be reasonable

Programs that have success year after year and very competitive in a league among the top in the country or do you think every league compete at the same level?

Because they can't stand the fact UCONN is better program than theirs today so they have to use a different criteria for the ranking. Any top 20 program today would probably win most of the championships when teams have mostly 5 white players on the floor. The quality of play is night and day. It is not exactly apples to apples comparison. I don't know why people even bring that era up.

As for most dominate program throughout BE history, there is no debate. The record speaks for itself. What does fan support has to do with anything?

Finally we agree. Syracuse is #6 in the nation on all time winning percentage. There is no debate on the best charter member of the BE throughout the BEs history and it most dominate team. Though no singe team ever really dominated the BE, Syr came closest to doing that throughout the BE's entire history. Syr was never consider less than number one or two. We were never number seven in BB like UCONN was.

We are a better program today. Deal with it. We can sit here and use whatever criteria to measure, but performance in the history of the BE does not lie where there are head-to-head match ups, BE championships etc.

UCONN in the history of the BE has more BE regular season titles, 2nd in BET titles only to Georgetown, better NCAA performance, more NCAA titles, better NBA players etc. than just about any team in the BE. This is a fact you can't dispute.

I still remember Cuse fans telling UCONN fans won't win a BE football game for 10 years or something along those lines. Reality has a funny way of playing mind games with people living in the past.

BTW, you can have all your wins against Southwest community colleges of the world prior to the formation of the BE.