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Texas State, UTSA, Lamar to WAC?
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eager eagle Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Texas State, UTSA, Lamar to WAC?
Krocker Krapp Wrote:North Texas was an example. Hence the words "for example" between the commas. That means it was an example.

No problem.
10-08-2007 08:28 AM
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Krocker Krapp Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Texas State, UTSA, Lamar to WAC?
Two Texas universities weigh pros, cons of starting football programs
By Eric Dexheimer | AMERICAN STATESMAN STAFF
Monday, October 01, 2007

Ninety-nine percent of colleges and universities lose money on their athletics programs, and football teams cost the most. Yet the allure of a marquee team is so strong in Texas that some schools that don't currently compete in the sport are tempted to start.

Two large universities considering adding intercollegiate football to their campuses recently have run the numbers. Their reports, both delivered in the past year, offer a detailed window into the game's high finance — and low return.

Texas A&M University-Corpus Christi administrators say they hope Division I-AA football will boost school spirit and attract more male students to the university, which has ambitious growth plans. At the University of Texas-San Antonio, administrators say they see football as an essential building block toward becoming a top school. Each would lose millions of dollars every year.

Two years ago, the University of Texas-Arlington decided to pass on starting a football team after a study showed it would cost more than $20 million the first five years. Both UTSA's and TAMUCC's reports warn of football's outsized expense — as much as $8 million annually in UTSA's case and about $3 million at Corpus Christi.

"It's the most labor- and financially intensive sport to add," said TAMUCC Athletics Director Brian Teter. The cost would be borne largely by students, in the form of higher fees.

Where would the money go? At Corpus Christi, adding football would nearly double the current coaching and support salaries, from $700,000 to $1.2 million, and add $1 million in administrative costs. Scholarships for football players would tack on another $1 million.

There's more: New equipment ($128,500) and a training room ($40,000). Installing new turf in Buccaneer Stadium would cost $750,000; new locker rooms and lockers are another $750,000. Converting a classroom to a restroom, building a coaches' office and player meeting rooms, an equipment room, practice fields and video operations is an additional $1 million.

Other startup costs are less obvious. Adding football means Corpus Christi also would have to add women's soccer to comply with Title IX's gender equity rules. That's another $300,000.

While Corpus Christi's goal is to compete in the I-AA Southland Conference, the UT-San Antonio Roadrunners aspire to eventually play in larger and higher-exposure Division I-A. NCAA requirements make that even more expensive.

Division I means more scholarships. UTSA estimates paying for football players' education would start at $375,000, in 2009-10, and climb to $2 million by 2014-15, when the school attained Division I-A status. Adding summer school and fifth-year aid for some student-athletes costs another $100,000 or so.

Traveling to away games would cost $300,000 a year —and rise an estimated 50 percent four years later. Recruiting costs add $120,000 a year. UTSA's study also doesn't account for several large-ticket items, such as an academic support program, adding or enhancing broadcast operations and additions to the sports medicine and training facilities — all crucial components of a big-time program.

Though it wouldn't be used exclusively for football, the new athletics center the university hopes to build would add to the start-up cost. The school hopes to raise the $62 million privately.

Neither start-up program would come close to paying for itself. "Most I-A athletic departments are able to generate less than one-fourth of their total operating revenue from gate receipts, donations, conference distributions and miscellaneous sources such as television, radio, corporate sponsorships and special events," UTSA's report acknowledges.

UTSA's consultants estimate that by 2014, when the school wants to hit I-A, football would siphon $14.5 million a year from university coffers, the vast bulk of that — $13 million — paid by students in the form of fees.

That's more than double the current fee assessment, and would cost each student about $500 a year, according to internal studies. Nevertheless, earlier this month UTSA students voted overwhelmingly in favor of taxing future student bodies to pay for football.


At Corpus Christi, students would be asked to pay an additional $600,000 in fees annually for football. While some of the cost would be made up by as-yet undetermined corporate sponsors and merchandise sales, the university, which now subsidizes athletics to the tune of $1.1 million, would be expected to pay the rest. Though the exact sum is unknown, "the average Southland Conference university that sponsors football provides $2.83 million in 'general university support,'" the report notes.

Both schools say they are still studying whether football is worth it.

"There are a lot of people in Texas who believe that to have a first-class campus, you've got to have football," said David Gabler, assistant vice president for communications at UTSA. "There is prestige connected to schools that compete on the athletic field."

Still, Teter cautions, "If you're going to launch a program, it better be the right way or it'll be an albatross around your neck for years to come."


This article appeared in the Austin American Statesman on Monday, October 1, 2007.
10-10-2007 11:30 AM
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jediwarrior Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Texas State, UTSA, Lamar to WAC?
Interesting figures Krocker. Was reading somewhere (...maybe on this board) that SDSU had to rely on their university to foot 42% of their annual athletic budget...hence the call by some academics to kill the SDSU football program.

Then there's all the Caly colleges whom did get rid of "football" to cut costs....so these figures are "real"...except for the moving to 1a by 2014. Schools need to "realistically" weigh the possibilities of being "attractive" enough to be selected by a D-1a conference. By 2014, there's going to be a lotta choices available...with very few slots.
10-10-2007 04:02 PM
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coachacola Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Texas State, UTSA, Lamar to WAC?
As a Lamar alumni, I can tell you that dropping football to save costs does a lot more damage to the school in the long run than anyone can imagine. After 18 years there are still alumni who will not donate one penny to Lamar because of that. And Lamar hardly ever had any winning seasons. I hope the powers that be at SDSU are smart enough to realize that even having bad football teams is better than having no football.
10-10-2007 05:33 PM
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Krocker Krapp Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Texas State, UTSA, Lamar to WAC?
UTSA could, theoretically, start playing football as a Division I-FCS independent in 2010 and be ready to upgrade to Division I-FBS by 2014. I think FAU and FIU did it this way, spending only four years at the FCS level, but they always planned to end up in FBS from the beginning.

The problem for UTSA is that they do not have a guaranteed conference to go to even if they succeed in pulling off their fast track football plan. FAU and FIU had the Sun Belt to end up in. UTSA will be taking a gamble and could wind up caught between a rock and a hard place.
10-10-2007 11:55 PM
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ManzanoWolf Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Texas State, UTSA, Lamar to WAC?
Krocker Krapp Wrote:UTSA could, theoretically, start playing football as a Division I-FCS independent in 2010 and be ready to upgrade to Division I-FBS by 2014. I think FAU and FIU did it this way, spending only four years at the FCS level, but they always planned to end up in FBS from the beginning.

The problem for UTSA is that they do not have a guaranteed conference to go to even if they succeed in pulling off their fast track football plan. FAU and FIU had the Sun Belt to end up in. UTSA will be taking a gamble and could wind up caught between a rock and a hard place.

Agree; without a FBS conference waiting on them to move up they will be hard pressed to get the required five 1-A home games each year. It would be very risky to take the independent route in today's environment.
10-11-2007 10:21 AM
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Krocker Krapp Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Texas State, UTSA, Lamar to WAC?
TXST Advisory Group Approves Move to FBS

Word is coming out of San Marcos, Texas that a decision has been made by the advisory board appointed by the University President a few months ago, that they are FOR the move to FBS.

No official word from the institution yet, but there has been a fair share of information over the last few weeks that pointed in the direction that this would occur.

Texas State - San Marcos would more than likely be positioning itself to make the move when the moratorium comes to an end.

More news to follow when it becomes available, if it becomes available...

This rumor appeared on the Any Given Saturday website on Monday, October 29, 2007.
10-31-2007 04:55 PM
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jediwarrior Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Texas State, UTSA, Lamar to WAC?
Does the moratorium end in 2011? I think these guys are destined for the Sunbelt.
(This post was last modified: 11-01-2007 06:27 AM by jediwarrior.)
11-01-2007 05:47 AM
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mattsarz Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Texas State, UTSA, Lamar to WAC?
Either that or the Southland is looking to move up as a conference. Remember that the Southland was initially established as a I-A conference and its champ played in the Independence Bowl (the bowl game was started for the conference).
11-01-2007 10:32 AM
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Krocker Krapp Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Texas State, UTSA, Lamar to WAC?
They can't be destined for the Sun Belt if there are no spots available. After next year, the Sun Belt will have 9 football members as Western Kentucky completes their transition, and then South Alabama will probably be waiting in the wings to become the league's 10th football school. The Sun Belt is not going to kick out New Orleans or Arkansas-Little Rock, although they would gladly help oddball 13th overall member Denver pack their bags, and Commissioner Waters has publicly stated that they are not interested in expanding to 12 schools for football in the near future.

Could this change a few years from now? Possibly. But what benefit is there to the Sun Belt in becoming a 12/14 football/basketball league? Would they suddenly start raking in more football profits or begin annually earning two NCAA Tournament bids in basketball? If not then why even expand at all? It doesn't seem like the Southland has a plan to all move up together but maybe they should consider it. That would be a better option than losing several members, who would be without a conference afterward, and then trying to replace them. Money would be the big issue.
11-01-2007 01:50 PM
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chargeradio Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Texas State, UTSA, Lamar to WAC?
Would the Sun Belt consider three football only members if the Mountain West, WAC, or Conference USA doesn't create any other openings? It could be an extra home game for the regular-season champion (like Conference USA's title game).

SBC Football West - Texas State, UTSA, Lamar, UNT, UL-Monroe, UL-Lafayette
SBC Football East - Arkansas State, MTSU, WKU, FIU, FAU, USA, Troy

If the league doesn't want 13 members for football, bump one of the newbies and move Arkansas State to the West.
11-01-2007 06:27 PM
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Juice752 Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Texas State, UTSA, Lamar to WAC?
mattsarz Wrote:Either that or the Southland is looking to move up as a conference. Remember that the Southland was initially established as a I-A conference and its champ played in the Independence Bowl (the bowl game was started for the conference).

I hope not. Louisiana cannot handle 5 FBS schools now. Adding 4 more would be a horrible decision.
11-01-2007 08:05 PM
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ManzanoWolf Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Texas State, UTSA, Lamar to WAC?
chargeradio Wrote:Would the Sun Belt consider three football only members if the Mountain West, WAC, or Conference USA doesn't create any other openings? It could be an extra home game for the regular-season champion (like Conference USA's title game).

SBC Football West - Texas State, UTSA, Lamar, UNT, UL-Monroe, UL-Lafayette
SBC Football East - Arkansas State, MTSU, WKU, FIU, FAU, USA, Troy

If the league doesn't want 13 members for football, bump one of the newbies and move Arkansas State to the West.

No, the SBC will not add football-only schools and the Commish recently stated the SBC is not looking to expand. With WKU adding FBS football and South Alabama once again doing a feasibility study to add football, there are no openings at the inn.

However, there are some fans on the UNT Board that have expressed a desire to add Texas State as a travel partner. Would UNT push for Texas State?
(This post was last modified: 11-02-2007 06:22 PM by ManzanoWolf.)
11-01-2007 08:09 PM
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ManzanoWolf Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Texas State, UTSA, Lamar to WAC?
ManzanoWolf Wrote:With WKU adding FBS football and South Alabama once again doing a feasibility study to add football, there are no openings at the inn.

Saw the following South Alabama football update on the SBC Board today:

SGA: Football petition hit goal

http://www.al.com/press-register/stories...xml&coll=3

Thursday, November 01, 2007
By GEORGE R. ALTMAN
Staff Reporter

Student leaders at the University of South Alabama said they have collected the required signatures on a petition in support of a new football program, but the university's president said Wednesday that he will gauge alumni and community support before making a recommendation to trustees.

"It's going to take a strong show of support from all of our constituents to make that happen," said USA President Gordon Moulton, who said he was encouraged by the number of petition signatures.

"That will be one -- and I do emphasize one -- of the strong indicators," said Moulton, whose plan would use student fee money to cover much of the program's cost.

USA officials required 2,000 signatures on petitions expressing support for football and willingness to pay an additional $100 to $150 each semester in activity fees. Student Government Association President Jennifer Edwards said Wednesday that goal has been met.

"It's been going really well," Edwards said. "I think a lot of people are really excited about it."

Though 2,000 signatures does not represent a majority of USA's 14,000 students, Edwards and Moulton said they are confident that most students want an intercollegiate football program and are willing to pay for it.

Edwards said the signatures are a good measure of student support, as most student elections don't get 2,000 voters.

Edwards said students plan to present the signatures to Moulton during the home opener for the men's basketball team on Nov. 10 at the USA Mitchell Center. She said strong attendance at that game would show that students not only want football but also are willing to support other USA sports.

"It's really going to be a historical day for University of South Alabama athletics," Edwards said.
11-02-2007 06:21 PM
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TopCoog Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Texas State, UTSA, Lamar to WAC?
This is great stuff. I agree with Krocker that the wac needs to keep looking west at Sac State, Portland State etc.
I feel that UTSA is a sleeping giant and that CUSA will not pass them up, opening or not. But Krocker is right, UCF will probably end up in the big east in due time. If that happens one has to wonder if ECU and Marshall would stay in CUSA. You could well see Marshall back in the MAC and ECU in the improved Sun Belt.
TCU is not going to stay in the MWC forever without a BCS bid.
TCU, UTSA and La tech would be solid replacements for UCF, ECU and Marshall should it work out that way. If 14 were the number Texas State and North texas would be obvious. Talk about reducing travel expenses. I doubt there would be that much change but its all out there as a possibility.
11-04-2007 07:17 AM
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TopCoog Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Texas State, UTSA, Lamar to WAC?
By the way Chargeradio, UTSA will not play as a 1AA independent since there is no 1AA, only 1A.
11-04-2007 07:20 AM
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Krocker Krapp Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Texas State, UTSA, Lamar to WAC?
It looks more and more likely that South Alabama will move forward and start a football program. We can probably project them to begin playing in 2010 if there are no setbacks, spend the requisite four years at the FCS level as an independent, and join Sun Belt football in 2014.

UTSA plans to follow that same blueprint with the exception that their stated goal is to join CUSA in 2014. There is no way to tell how this will pan out right now because it is seven years in the future but it would depend on the Big East taking at least one school away from CUSA.

Texas State has the problem of being sandwiched between Austin and San Antonio. Lone State State football lives and dies by the Longhorns, by and large, while UTSA has the advantage of being in a large untapped market with the awesome Alamodome at their beck and call.

Perhaps, hypothetically, we can assume that the Sun Belt might want to go to a 12/14 football/basketball model in the future by adding Texas State and Lamar while, somehow, UTSA gets into CUSA and Denver goes who knows where. This would leave the Sun Belt looking like ...

North Texas / Texas State
Lamar / Louisiana-Lafayette
Louisiana-Monroe / Arkansas State
Arkansas-Little Rock
New Orleans
Western Kentucky / Middle Tennessee
Troy / South Alabama
Florida Atlantic / Florida International

It works out almost perfectly in a geographical sense although New Orleans probably would not be happy with being pushed into the East Division for basketball and minor sports. The alternative, though, of finding another conference would be much more unpalatable to them.

Now let's take a look at what those three vacancies would do to the Southland Conference. They would still be left with nine members, but only eight would be football schools, assuming Texas-Arlington does not change their position about not adding the sport in the future.

Perhaps by that time, though, Tarleton State would be ready to try to move up again. This also assumes that TAMU Corpus Christi proceeds with their preliminary plan to start football. Stephensville is located southwest of Arlington so that would change up the travel partners.

Central Arkansas / Northwestern State
Southeastern Louisiana / Nicholls State
McNeese State / TAMU Corpus Christi
Sam Houston State / Stephen F. Austin
Texas-Arlington / Tarleton State

This is still not great, however, as McNeese State and Northwestern State are much bigger rivals than either school will probably ever be with Central Arkansas or TAMU Corpus Christi. But, once again, this is all several years down the road and no one knows what will happen anyway.

One other possibility, I suppose, could be Arkansas-Little Rock and New Orleans moving from the Sun Belt to the Southland, giving both leagues 12 members, but neither school is likely to find this idea attractive. There are no perfect answers no matter what scenario comes to pass.
11-04-2007 03:20 PM
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ManzanoWolf Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Texas State, UTSA, Lamar to WAC?
Krocker Krapp Wrote:One other possibility, I suppose, could be Arkansas-Little Rock and New Orleans moving from the Sun Belt to the Southland, giving both leagues 12 members, but neither school is likely to find this idea attractive. There are no perfect answers no matter what scenario comes to pass.

One of the more knowledgeable posters on the SBC Board has suggested that NO may not be able to recover from Katrina and be able to sponsor the minimum number of sports required to remain in the SBC. NO would be forced to move to another conference leaving only UALR as the sole non-football school in the SBC (assuming USA adds football). UALR would most likely seek another home as well as they would no longer 'fit' in the SBC.

UCA may make the move up and enter the SBC versus Lamar; UCA is a fast growing school in a metro area that would enjoy competing with stAte. IMHO UCA has plans and that does not include staying in the SLC.
(This post was last modified: 11-04-2007 07:25 PM by ManzanoWolf.)
11-04-2007 07:18 PM
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coachacola Offline
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Post: #39
RE: Texas State, UTSA, Lamar to WAC?
Central Arkansas is still transitioning from DII to DI, so I don't see them jumping to FBS so soon. UALR seems like a natural fit for The Summit League. Lamar's students will supposedly vote in January on raising student fees to help pay for football. It's been rumored that AD Billy Tubbs has been seen playing golf with ex-Texas A&M football coach R.C. Slocum recently. Don't be surprised to see UTSA, Lamar and South Alabama playing football in 2010 as FCS independents. It's probably way too early to know where they'll eventually end up.
11-04-2007 08:38 PM
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Krocker Krapp Offline
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Post: #40
RE: Texas State, UTSA, Lamar to WAC?
coachacola Wrote:Don't be surprised to see UTSA, Lamar and South Alabama playing football in 2010 as FCS independents. It's probably way too early to know where they'll eventually end up.
South Alabama has been playing basketball and minor sports in the Sun Belt for many years. They will eventually end up playing football in the Sun Belt as well. There is no question about that.

UTSA, Texas State, and Lamar, on the other hand, are taking huge gambles. They might be better served by taking things more slowly and trying to get the entire Southland to move together.
11-05-2007 02:35 PM
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