The pace of erosion of our civil liberties is stunning. We are no longer the most free country in the world. Collective liberty is an oxymoron. The citizens in V for Vendetta had "collective liberty". Should I call you Mr. Creedy now?

aTxTIGER Wrote:i see his point about bureaucracy, but without individual freedoms he throws away so easily in this article, there is no collective freedom. of course the email was paraphrasing, so ill reserve judgement until i see him say it.

he's not throwing anything away, he's saying their are LIMITS to it given certain real and present realities.

the country has a long history in war time of policies far more encroaching than the patriot act for example, its pretty simple concept. There is a real enemy that is existential and totalitarian, is living within and abroad in a flat world thanks to modern technology and globalization. Too much focus on 'individual freedom' can lead to NO Freedom after you get blown up, or major cities get blown up, Oil prices shoot through the roof and food no longer gets the grocery store you are dependent on it getting to, since only 2% of the country is in agriculture and the rest of us are dependent on them getting food to us. the power source to your PC goes out, or xbox, etc. Old people and poor people would die in the winter time, food shortages. Collective freedom is living in an open society were these threats don't happen or have much less chance.

Too many have no concept of what Freedom and Liberty actually are and what makes them possible to begin with, and where they came from. You don't have the freedom to shout Fire in a crowded theater when there is none, because it encroaches on others freedom. The compromise or balance is what makes Liberty possible.


the founders created a Form-Freedom balance, not anarchy.

or as Judge Posner chronicled the history of related to this:

So, he's not electable.

Well, if he isn't electable, this nation, and this world are in for more of the same. And that is very dangerous.

GGniner Wrote:

aTxTIGER Wrote:i see his point about bureaucracy, but without individual freedoms he throws away so easily in this article, there is no collective freedom. of course the email was paraphrasing, so ill reserve judgement until i see him say it.

he's not throwing anything away, he's saying their are LIMITS to it given certain real and present realities.

the country has a long history in war time of policies far more encroaching than the patriot act for example, its pretty simple concept. There is a real enemy that is existential and totalitarian, is living within and abroad in a flat world thanks to modern technology and globalization. Too much focus on 'individual freedom' can lead to NO Freedom after you get blown up, or major cities get blown up, Oil prices shoot through the roof and food no longer gets the grocery store you are dependent on it getting to, since only 2% of the country is in agriculture and the rest of us are dependent on them getting food to us. the power source to your PC goes out, or xbox, etc. Old people and poor people would die in the winter time, food shortages. Collective freedom is living in an open society were these threats don't happen or have much less chance.

Too many have no concept of what Freedom and Liberty actually are and what makes them possible to begin with, and where they came from. You don't have the freedom to shout Fire in a crowded theater when there is none, because it encroaches on others freedom. The compromise or balance is what makes Liberty possible.


the founders created a Form-Freedom balance, not anarchy.

or as Judge Posner chronicled the history of related to this:

And those policies are widely recognized to be among our worst mistakes. Surely you are not trying to justify the internment of Japanese citizens during WWII. "Well we used to do worse" is one of the worst justifications there is. As a society we are supposed to learn from our mistakes and improve - not stagnate or even regress.

The reason you are not allowed to shout fire in a crowed theatre is because your action infringes on the individual rights of others. The action you are taking directly violates the rights of others. It is in no way analgous to the government restricting individual liberties in order to (maybe) protect the collective.