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Would SU/Rutgers be making a mistake by joining Big Televen?
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buckaineer Offline
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Would SU/Rutgers be making a mistake by joining Big Televen?
It is clear that the Big Televen IS considering adding a team. They want a big TV market and after ND the clear choice is going to be another BE team because Rutgers and Syracuse are in the NY market and no one else can top that. It also solves the problem of finding PSU another eastern team.

It is impossible to argue that money would be way beyond what the BE payout could be-especially since that might solidify their attempts to get the cable companies to add the BTN.

However, would it be a huge mistake for the programs at Syracuse and Rutgers to join a midwestern league?

Look to PSU for the answer. Yes they are stable financially, but they would have been anyway, they are Penn State. Yes they are sharing in academics, but they were an AAU school before they joined and had great academics.

On the athletic side PSU has declined greatly. They no longer get all the top eastern prospects. In fact when they joined the Big Ten they opened up a funnel to send eastern kids to midwestern programs instead of eastern ones. Schools like OSU, MIchigan and Iowa prospered greatly from this while it is clear PSU did not.

PSU is now an also ran in a conference whose power is controlled by Ohio State followed by Michigan with Wisconsin following on their heals. PSU has less pull in the conference than those schools and also is out recruited by these since joining the league. They no longer have as much of a presence in the east where geagraphically and historically they are located.

Now imagine what would happen to a Rutgers or Syracuse in this same situation. They are both right now pretty much on equal footing with all other member institutions in the BE. They have as much of a say as anyone. As Rutgers is proving they have the opportunity to build their programs to heights that they wouldn't have dreamed of just a decade ago. Syracuse can achieve it's past glory if they can reestablish their program in the BE.

In the BE, they relinquish all power and standing to OSU, Michigan and PSU and Wisconsin. They will probably lose eastern recruits to these and other midwestern schools much like PSU has. The Big Televen will be taking them to the bank while their programs become an also ran in a conference based more in Chicago than in NY.

Who knows in five years if they remain then the BE might be on more equal footing financially with the other BCS conferences. If they leave, they'll have the financial stability (IF the BTN flies) but they will have lost their newfound identity much like PSU--who used to be the OSU or USC or Texas of the east but is now a program that doesn't even make bowl games every year.
08-10-2007 11:23 AM
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mattsarz Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Would SU/Rutgers be making a mistake by joining Big Televen?
While they were an AAU member, I think they had to increase even further to get up to the levels of academia the Big Ten schools wanted Penn St. to have. AAU status for the Big Ten is a minimum level of sorts.
08-10-2007 11:34 AM
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USFMike Offline
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RE: Would SU/Rutgers be making a mistake by joining Big Televen?
very good points, rutgers and syracuse can very well become the big ten's version of "kentucky" or another illinois or indiana. i'm under the impression the big ten will go for notre dame, texas, nebraska or none at all. if penn st can't carry the ny market for the big ten, what makes them think that a middle/lower of the pack rutgers or cuse can do better? if rutgers goes on a tear and fires off big east championship after big east championship than maybe they might have something, but not now.
08-10-2007 11:35 AM
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Bearcat T Offline
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RE: Would SU/Rutgers be making a mistake by joining Big Televen?
Either way as long as the Big East would say only lose one team like Rutgers or Syracuse you just add Memphis and or UCF. I do no think you lose that much unless UL or WVU leaves. Rutgers B-Ball and Syracuse football can be replaced. I do not want anyone to leave but it does not kill the Big East for sure. Right now UL would be #1 not to lose and WVU a close 2nd ....then the rest of us are all in a pack.
08-10-2007 11:55 AM
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buckaineer Offline
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RE: Would SU/Rutgers be making a mistake by joining Big Televen?
Bearcat T Wrote:Either way as long as the Big East would say only lose one team like Rutgers or Syracuse you just add Memphis and or UCF. I do no think you lose that much unless UL or WVU leaves. Rutgers B-Ball and Syracuse football can be replaced. I do not want anyone to leave but it does not kill the Big East for sure. Right now UL would be #1 not to lose and WVU a close 2nd ....then the rest of us are all in a pack.

Not sure how you are determining this. If Syracuse, Rutgers, Pitt, WVU or Louisville leave the BE, you can kiss the BCS goodbye for the league. This would be the kiss of death. You could add all the Memphis, ECU's etc., but that isn't going to keep a BCS berth or hold the league together.

Syracuse has won national championships in football, is a founding member of the conference and has had great teams over several decades up until recently. Even a bad Syracuse last year had a highly ranked Big Televen Iowa on the ropes until they lost by a point or two in triple OT. Memphis would be nowhere near SU in football in the minds of the media and other BCS leagues. Rutgers is developing quickly into a top level program and could become a power in the east with continued on field success.

You can't just replace these programs with any team and think everything would be ok--it could be a death blow to the conference in fact. Programs like WVU, Pitt and Louisville might have to strongly consider going back to independent status in football if Rutgers or SU left. I'm certain they'd all be lobbying hard to get into other BCS leagues-they would have to.
08-10-2007 12:18 PM
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TexanMark Online
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RE: Would SU/Rutgers be making a mistake by joining Big Televen?
The Big 10 for Syracuse is a mixed bag...Academics would be a big plus, Football money better but they could be a perennial 9th-12th place team, Basketball IMHO would be hurt the most.

Purely academic reasons you go

Athletics not so sure, the ACC is a better athletic fit for the Cuse

All that said--I'm happy to stay and grow the Big East
08-10-2007 12:24 PM
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RE: Would SU/Rutgers be making a mistake by joining Big Televen?
Bearcat T Wrote:Either way as long as the Big East would say only lose one team like Rutgers or Syracuse you just add Memphis and or UCF. I do no think you lose that much unless UL or WVU leaves. Rutgers B-Ball and Syracuse football can be replaced. I do not want anyone to leave but it does not kill the Big East for sure. Right now UL would be #1 not to lose and WVU a close 2nd ....then the rest of us are all in a pack.

Syracuse Football while down still carries alot of cachet--it would be a big loss for the Big East.

They are still a national name who gets home and homes with the Elite Teams.
08-10-2007 12:27 PM
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brista21 Offline
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RE: Would SU/Rutgers be making a mistake by joining Big Televen?
TexanMark Wrote:
Bearcat T Wrote:Either way as long as the Big East would say only lose one team like Rutgers or Syracuse you just add Memphis and or UCF. I do no think you lose that much unless UL or WVU leaves. Rutgers B-Ball and Syracuse football can be replaced. I do not want anyone to leave but it does not kill the Big East for sure. Right now UL would be #1 not to lose and WVU a close 2nd ....then the rest of us are all in a pack.

Syracuse Football while down still carries alot of cachet--it would be a big loss for the Big East.

They are still a national name who gets home and homes with the Elite Teams.

Bingo. Rutgers is the easier to replace. The only thing we're recognized as a power in is Women's BBall. Football has/is certainly making strides and in time will be a power. And with the way recruiting has gone for Fred Hill in Basketball we may finally have our guy there. And if he gets real hot he isn't going to "greener pastures" his family is a big part of the Rutgers community, his dad the longtime baseball coach etc. This my friends is where he wants to be. Rutgers can someday be a huge power in college sports and for once saying so won't get you laughed at because it is starting to happen in some areas. However, I don't want to go to the Big Ten to be some red headed stepchild like Penn State and end up stifled because our conference affiliation. Not to mention the rivalries and comradarie we have here in this conference.
08-10-2007 01:10 PM
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L-yes Offline
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RE: Would SU/Rutgers be making a mistake by joining Big Televen?
buckaineer Wrote:
Bearcat T Wrote:Either way as long as the Big East would say only lose one team like Rutgers or Syracuse you just add Memphis and or UCF. I do no think you lose that much unless UL or WVU leaves. Rutgers B-Ball and Syracuse football can be replaced. I do not want anyone to leave but it does not kill the Big East for sure. Right now UL would be #1 not to lose and WVU a close 2nd ....then the rest of us are all in a pack.

Not sure how you are determining this. If Syracuse, Rutgers, Pitt, WVU or Louisville leave the BE, you can kiss the BCS goodbye for the league. This would be the kiss of death. You could add all the Memphis, ECU's etc., but that isn't going to keep a BCS berth or hold the league together.

Syracuse has won national championships in football, is a founding member of the conference and has had great teams over several decades up until recently. Even a bad Syracuse last year had a highly ranked Big Televen Iowa on the ropes until they lost by a point or two in triple OT. Memphis would be nowhere near SU in football in the minds of the media and other BCS leagues. Rutgers is developing quickly into a top level program and could become a power in the east with continued on field success.

You can't just replace these programs with any team and think everything would be ok--it could be a death blow to the conference in fact. Programs like WVU, Pitt and Louisville might have to strongly consider going back to independent status in football if Rutgers or SU left. I'm certain they'd all be lobbying hard to get into other BCS leagues-they would have to.

Good Lord man! Easy there... The world will not explode with the loss of SU or RU. Rutgers was a wart on football's ass prior to the last couple of seasons! Now if they leave all is lost? Get a grip! I would hate to lose either but I've seen Memphis put 50,000 in the Liberty Bowl to play Louisville on a weeknight. There is only ONE program in the league currently that could match that feat. I've also seen Memphis put 15,000+ fannies in an arena for a regular season basketball game many times, there are a handfull of programs in the current league that can do that. Either would be replacable. The replacement may not be as familiar to you as the traditional doormat and a program fallen on hard times but I assure you they would open your eyes with a quickness.
08-10-2007 02:10 PM
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Bearcat T Offline
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RE: Would SU/Rutgers be making a mistake by joining Big Televen?
Yes my point exactly, while I don't want to lose anyone ...I would take Memphis for SYracuse ....B-ball is a trade off and football yes you lose tradition but gain the Liberty Bowl. No way this loses the BCS bid! If its Rutgers you gain big in BBall and lose just two recent years of success but again you trade it for the Liberty Bowl etc. IF UL, UC and USF could Save the BId losing only one team would not. It's only discussion becaus eI doubt there is expansion and if so I doubt its for someone in the Big East. Please don't think I'm downing RU or Su it could be said the same for any of the rest except UL and WVU.
08-10-2007 02:38 PM
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RE: Would SU/Rutgers be making a mistake by joining Big Televen?
You are certainly entitled to your opinion and not be criticized. But my opinion is that Memphis does not replace Syracuse in fb nor basketball in any way shape or form. Syracuse is down now, but once they get back to snuff and start to winning 9 or 10 games a year, the media will be saying that Syracuse is back and that will give the league additional respect and prestige in fb that Memphis will probably never be able to generate. Thats not a knock on Memphis, because I really do respect most of the Memphis fans, but it is the truth. Niether does the Memphis name in basketball mean as much as the Syracuse name. So I will not knock anyones opinion in this matter, but my goodness, lets keep it real here. And gaining one middle tier bowl and losing a national named program like Syracuse do not measure the same.
(This post was last modified: 08-10-2007 02:51 PM by cuseroc.)
08-10-2007 02:48 PM
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RE: Would SU/Rutgers be making a mistake by joining Big Televen?
It would be a good move financially for whichever of the 2 teams went into the Big 10. That's a fact.

But neither team has anything in common with the midwestern teams. Like Penn State, they'd be pariahs in the Big 10 - without the kind of fan following Penn State enjoys. I think it would be a good - and bad - move.

I hope it doesn't happen, but eastern teams have always been unable to form a coalition able to withstand. It wouldn't surprise me to see another self-indulgent decision by an eastern power destroy any possibility for a true eastern all-sports conference. It's happened so many times it's an old hat now.
08-10-2007 02:50 PM
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RE: Would SU/Rutgers be making a mistake by joining Big Televen?
bitcruncher Wrote:It would be a good move financially for whichever of the 2 teams went into the Big 10. That's a fact.

But neither team has anything in common with the midwestern teams. Like Penn State, they'd be pariahs in the Big 10 - without the kind of fan following Penn State enjoys. I think it would be a good - and bad - move.

I hope it doesn't happen, but eastern teams have always been unable to form a coalition able to withstand. It wouldn't surprise me to see another self-indulgent decision by an eastern power destroy any possibility for a true eastern all-sports conference. It's happened so many times it's an old hat now.

I aslo think that if the BE can be left alone and the fb programs in the league now can commit to staying together, this league could be really special, with an additional 1 or 2 teams. Who knows what this league could generate financially and stability wise in the next 5 years, if all the programs could commit to stay together. At worst, I think the league could be as soild year in and out as the Big 12 or pac 10.
08-10-2007 02:54 PM
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RE: Would SU/Rutgers be making a mistake by joining Big Televen?
Being left alone is the operative terminology here... 01-lauramac2
08-10-2007 03:18 PM
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RE: Would SU/Rutgers be making a mistake by joining Big Televen?
buckaineer Wrote:It is clear that the Big Televen IS considering adding a team. They want a big TV market and after ND the clear choice is going to be another BE team because Rutgers and Syracuse are in the NY market and no one else can top that. It also solves the problem of finding PSU another eastern team.

It is impossible to argue that money would be way beyond what the BE payout could be-especially since that might solidify their attempts to get the cable companies to add the BTN.

However, would it be a huge mistake for the programs at Syracuse and Rutgers to join a midwestern league?

Look to PSU for the answer. Yes they are stable financially, but they would have been anyway, they are Penn State. Yes they are sharing in academics, but they were an AAU school before they joined and had great academics.

On the athletic side PSU has declined greatly. They no longer get all the top eastern prospects. In fact when they joined the Big Ten they opened up a funnel to send eastern kids to midwestern programs instead of eastern ones. Schools like OSU, MIchigan and Iowa prospered greatly from this while it is clear PSU did not.

PSU is now an also ran in a conference whose power is controlled by Ohio State followed by Michigan with Wisconsin following on their heals. PSU has less pull in the conference than those schools and also is out recruited by these since joining the league. They no longer have as much of a presence in the east where geagraphically and historically they are located.

Now imagine what would happen to a Rutgers or Syracuse in this same situation. They are both right now pretty much on equal footing with all other member institutions in the BE. They have as much of a say as anyone. As Rutgers is proving they have the opportunity to build their programs to heights that they wouldn't have dreamed of just a decade ago. Syracuse can achieve it's past glory if they can reestablish their program in the BE.

In the BE, they relinquish all power and standing to OSU, Michigan and PSU and Wisconsin. They will probably lose eastern recruits to these and other midwestern schools much like PSU has. The Big Televen will be taking them to the bank while their programs become an also ran in a conference based more in Chicago than in NY.

Who knows in five years if they remain then the BE might be on more equal footing financially with the other BCS conferences. If they leave, they'll have the financial stability (IF the BTN flies) but they will have lost their newfound identity much like PSU--who used to be the OSU or USC or Texas of the east but is now a program that doesn't even make bowl games every year.


Any rational person would agree that IF invited Rutgers will go to the Big Ten. It seems to me that Missouri and Rutgers are far and away the leaders for that spot. It would also be a mistake to claim, as many here and on other boards are trying to do, that this would cause another full scale realignment. More probably it would only cause a few ripples and not much change.
If the choice is Missouri there would be little change. Arkansas, Houston and TCU (in that order) would be by far the most likely replacements. The only ripple that would happen would occur if Arkansas were the choice. If that were to happen the SEC would nab an ACC team, causing the acc to expand by one, probably Rutgers.

If Rutgers were the choice very little change would take place. They would be replaced by UCF, Temple or Toledo in no particular order. ECU, Marshall or Memphis will not end up in the Big East under any forseeable set of circumstances, message board garble aside. The stronger MAC teams are much more likely to gain Big East membership than eastern CUSA schools. The idea that ECU or UCF could compete with a Toledo as a football school is absurd.

The Big 12 may expand to 14, thats more likely than many might think. The Pac 10 has shown not indication they would expand , nor has the sec or ACC. Attention on this big 10 move should be foucused squarely on Missouri and Rutgers.
08-10-2007 03:42 PM
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RE: Would SU/Rutgers be making a mistake by joining Big Televen?
buckaineer Wrote:
Bearcat T Wrote:Either way as long as the Big East would say only lose one team like Rutgers or Syracuse you just add Memphis and or UCF. I do no think you lose that much unless UL or WVU leaves. Rutgers B-Ball and Syracuse football can be replaced. I do not want anyone to leave but it does not kill the Big East for sure. Right now UL would be #1 not to lose and WVU a close 2nd ....then the rest of us are all in a pack.

Not sure how you are determining this. If Syracuse, Rutgers, Pitt, WVU or Louisville leave the BE, you can kiss the BCS goodbye for the league. This would be the kiss of death. You could add all the Memphis, ECU's etc., but that isn't going to keep a BCS berth or hold the league together.

Syracuse has won national championships in football, is a founding member of the conference and has had great teams over several decades up until recently. Even a bad Syracuse last year had a highly ranked Big Televen Iowa on the ropes until they lost by a point or two in triple OT. Memphis would be nowhere near SU in football in the minds of the media and other BCS leagues. Rutgers is developing quickly into a top level program and could become a power in the east with continued on field success.

You can't just replace these programs with any team and think everything would be ok--it could be a death blow to the conference in fact. Programs like WVU, Pitt and Louisville might have to strongly consider going back to independent status in football if Rutgers or SU left. I'm certain they'd all be lobbying hard to get into other BCS leagues-they would have to.

The BE isn't going to lose their bid .. no matter who they might lose.. even if it was louisville or WV. The BCS is a club... all who are in it will make sure they keep their bid...
08-10-2007 03:56 PM
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RE: Would SU/Rutgers be making a mistake by joining Big Televen?
The Big 10 doesn't have an audience for it's network. It's speculative. Lets see wht they do. The BTN sounds to me like there's mad cow disease and our brothers in the midwest have been chewing on the beef.
There is not a working model of this anywhere in the world of college sports right now at this moment. Yes it would be mistake for the SYR or RU to join the B10.

My understanding is tht ESPN tawkes first and second picks of games and the BTN gets the leftovers. Some fans also oppose the network. Here's a letter someone wrote in to the Michican Daily.

http://media.www.michigandaily.com/media...age2.shtml

"State (suported by our tax dollars) Universities should (by STATE LAW) have only free to the air waves broadcasts of any educational and sports related programs to the general publlic!!!!!! NO Enity should be able to prosper from the hard work of the captive athelets and students and parents who are striving to better themselves through thier efforts. This is another fine example of EXPLOITATION. BIG TEN SHAME IS ON YOU."
(This post was last modified: 08-10-2007 07:11 PM by frogman.)
08-10-2007 04:04 PM
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RE: Would SU/Rutgers be making a mistake by joining Big Televen?
TopCoog Wrote:Any rational person would agree that IF invited Rutgers will go to the Big Ten. It seems to me that Missouri and Rutgers are far and away the leaders for that spot. It would also be a mistake to claim, as many here and on other boards are trying to do, that this would cause another full scale realignment. More probably it would only cause a few ripples and not much change.
If the choice is Missouri there would be little change. Arkansas, Houston and TCU (in that order) would be by far the most likely replacements. The only ripple that would happen would occur if Arkansas were the choice. If that were to happen the SEC would nab an ACC team, causing the acc to expand by one, probably Rutgers.

If Rutgers were the choice very little change would take place. They would be replaced by UCF, Temple or Toledo in no particular order. ECU, Marshall or Memphis will not end up in the Big East under any forseeable set of circumstances, message board garble aside. The stronger MAC teams are much more likely to gain Big East membership than eastern CUSA schools. The idea that ECU or UCF could compete with a Toledo as a football school is absurd.

The Big 12 may expand to 14, thats more likely than many might think. The Pac 10 has shown not indication they would expand , nor has the sec or ACC. Attention on this big 10 move should be foucused squarely on Missouri and Rutgers.


Okay

Now we have established what won't happen

03-lmfao
08-10-2007 04:46 PM
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RE: Would SU/Rutgers be making a mistake by joining Big Televen?
It's a moot point because Time Warner and others have laid down the gauntlet. And the only way the Big Ten is going to get a stronger negotiating position is with a big name school like Nebrasha or Texas. And if they want a championship game they can just get Missouri and not disrupt anything.
08-10-2007 04:49 PM
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RE: Would SU/Rutgers be making a mistake by joining Big Televen?
I don't get all these crazy speculations about RU and CUSE. Bottom line is if either goes, it will be good for the school due to money but very bad for the fans. Both teams would probably be near the bottom after a few football seasons of 3-9 records. Basketball wise, it would be horrible for the CUSE not playing in the BE. RU's basketball has never meant much so it does not matter.

What's all the hoopla about RU delivering the NYC market? Are you guys kidding me? I think UCONN can deliver that market much better than RU. One good football season does not mean entire NYC is turning over. I think a crappy RU team (most likely after going to B10) will lose NYC fans in like 1 or 2 years. B10 is dreaming if they think RU can deliver that market after a few losing seasons.
08-10-2007 05:23 PM
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