The US federal government ... reaching new lows constantly.

What the **** is a Hindu doing in there?

fsquid Wrote:What the **** is a Hindu doing in there?

+1

There are no Hindu members of Congress. Why would you open with a Hindu prayer? I could see Islamic or Jewish, but this just seems like pandering for a disruption.

blah Wrote:

fsquid Wrote:What the **** is a Hindu doing in there?

+1

There are no Hindu members of Congress. Why would you open with a Hindu prayer? I could see Islamic or Jewish, but this just seems like pandering for a disruption.

I know that certain places have gone far enough to have an atheist "prayer" at the beginning of session. I haven't witnessed it, so I'm not quite sure how that works.

blah Wrote:

fsquid Wrote:What the **** is a Hindu doing in there?

+1

There are no Hindu members of Congress. Why would you open with a Hindu prayer? I could see Islamic or Jewish, but this just seems like pandering for a disruption.

Jewish would make more sense, there are jewish members of congress, there is one Islamic member, the first ever(Keith Ellison) and he's an absolute disgrace(9/11 Truther apparently). This looks like a stunt by Reid to piss off Christians, because they've always had Christian prayer since the days of the founders. Whoever these people are were idiots though(unless they were plants), whole free exercise clause and all. they should be smart enough to realize they are being played and abstain.

Have any of you ever heard the term "tyranny of the majority"?

Just because there are no Hindu congressmen, I'm 100% certain that there are congressmen who have some Hindu people among their constituents.

Sophandros Wrote:Have any of you ever heard the term "tyranny of the majority"?

Just because there are no Hindu congressmen, I'm 100% certain that there are congressmen who have some Hindu people among their constituents.

Who the **** cares? If so, they can go attend a Hindu whatever in the constituency.

Hindus are a part of our country, and thus have a right to be recognized.

Was that David Koresh and Tammy Faye Baker screaming in the background??

perhaps we should let the Wiccans and Satanist have a prayer ritual as well after the Hindu gets done, its all relative after all, forget the logical fallacies on display here.

GGniner Wrote:perhaps we should let the Wiccans and Satanist have a prayer ritual as well after the Hindu gets done, its all relative after all, forget the logical fallacies on display here.

The only one displaying fallacies is you. First of all, you've equated Wiccans with Satanists, which simply proves that you know nothing about either group.

Second of all, by permitting all religions to be represented, you help to prevent people from being marginalized and you create a culture of inclusion.

Sophandros Wrote:

GGniner Wrote:perhaps we should let the Wiccans and Satanist have a prayer ritual as well after the Hindu gets done, its all relative after all, forget the logical fallacies on display here.

The only one displaying fallacies is you. First of all, you've equated Wiccans with Satanists, which simply proves that you know nothing about either group.

Second of all, by permitting all religions to be represented, you help to prevent people from being marginalized and you create a culture of inclusion.

Wiccans and Satanist are religions that represent portions/minorities of the country. Thats the point, no equating the two. however, moral/cultural relativism is a logical fallacy, which is what this movement is about. facts are there are no elected hindus in congress that I know of, they've never had hindu prayer before, it was all a stunt. They should not have heckled them also, stupid on hecklers part unless this was staged.

the idea of starting every session of congress with every single religion that someone in the nation presides too is stupid. Especially since the basis for our laws is judeo-Christianity(see the bible) and read William blackstone sometime. Now if we elect hindu's to congress or wiccans or satanist or whatever, then this would make more sense.

GGniner Wrote:

Sophandros Wrote:

GGniner Wrote:perhaps we should let the Wiccans and Satanist have a prayer ritual as well after the Hindu gets done, its all relative after all, forget the logical fallacies on display here.

The only one displaying fallacies is you. First of all, you've equated Wiccans with Satanists, which simply proves that you know nothing about either group.

Second of all, by permitting all religions to be represented, you help to prevent people from being marginalized and you create a culture of inclusion.

Wiccans and Satanist are religions that represent portions/minorities of the country. Thats the point, no equating the two. however, moral/cultural relativism is a logical fallacy, which is what this movement is about. facts are there are no elected hindus in congress that I know of, they've never had hindu prayer before, it was all a stunt. They should not have heckled them also, stupid on hecklers part unless this was staged.

the idea of starting every session of congress with every single religion that someone in the nation presides too is stupid. Especially since the basis for our laws is judeo-Christianity(see the bible) and read William blackstone sometime. Now if we elect hindu's to congress or wiccans or satanist or whatever, then this would make more sense.

No, the basis for our laws is not Judeo-Christianity. For example, cultures believed that killing and stealing was wrong centuries before Judaism or Christianity.

MY point is that if we have a prayer, make it a non-specific prayer OR allow prayers from everyone in the society.

Our congressmen represent the people, not themselves, so it's completely irrelavant what their religion is. Furthermore, just because a religion is in the minority does not mean that it does not deserve equal treatment; in fact, the Bill of Rights exists to protect the rights of those whose opinions are in the minority. That is, it exists to protect against the Tyranny of the Majority. Take free expression, for example. The person who agrees with the majority opinion can confidently express himself because he knows that he has mob rule behind him; the dissenter can't do that without the First Amendment to protect him.

Sophandros Wrote:

GGniner Wrote:

Sophandros Wrote:

GGniner Wrote:perhaps we should let the Wiccans and Satanist have a prayer ritual as well after the Hindu gets done, its all relative after all, forget the logical fallacies on display here.

The only one displaying fallacies is you. First of all, you've equated Wiccans with Satanists, which simply proves that you know nothing about either group.

Second of all, by permitting all religions to be represented, you help to prevent people from being marginalized and you create a culture of inclusion.

Wiccans and Satanist are religions that represent portions/minorities of the country. Thats the point, no equating the two. however, moral/cultural relativism is a logical fallacy, which is what this movement is about. facts are there are no elected hindus in congress that I know of, they've never had hindu prayer before, it was all a stunt. They should not have heckled them also, stupid on hecklers part unless this was staged.

the idea of starting every session of congress with every single religion that someone in the nation presides too is stupid. Especially since the basis for our laws is judeo-Christianity(see the bible) and read William blackstone sometime. Now if we elect hindu's to congress or wiccans or satanist or whatever, then this would make more sense.

No, the basis for our laws is not Judeo-Christianity. For example, cultures believed that killing and stealing was wrong centuries before Judaism or Christianity.

and while I'm not shocked, you do not know your history at all but are well versed in propaganda. the greeks never had any understanding of the freedoms we have today, all you have to do is read Plato's republic to understand that. While they outlawed things like stealing its interesting how they arrived to those conclusions, but that is besides the point.

on the side of Jefferson memorial: “And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God?”
–Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781

Read William blackstone sometime and the founders themselves and the State constitutions from that time(many of which mandated Christianity as the states religion and founders took no issue with), Puritans...this is a really long list. of the 55 founders that wrote the Constitution, all but a few were Christians. Reading the first sentence of Declaration of Indpendence tells you all you need to know about their worldview, one that was unique to govts.

Quote:Our congressmen represent the people, not themselves, so it's completely irrelavant what their religion is. Furthermore, just because a religion is in the minority does not mean that it does not deserve equal treatment; in fact, the Bill of Rights exists to protect the rights of those whose opinions are in the minority. That is, it exists to protect against the Tyranny of the Majority. Take free expression, for example. The person who agrees with the majority opinion can confidently express himself because he knows that he has mob rule behind him; the dissenter can't do that without the First Amendment to protect him.

and using your logic, all religions including satanist should be allowed a ritual before congress starts. Forget the fact that the only reason they've had Christian prayer before is because it goes back to day 1 and we've always had christian of some persuasion reps. in congress freely practicing their religion like the founders intended.

GGniner Wrote:

Sophandros Wrote:

GGniner Wrote:

Sophandros Wrote:

GGniner Wrote:perhaps we should let the Wiccans and Satanist have a prayer ritual as well after the Hindu gets done, its all relative after all, forget the logical fallacies on display here.

The only one displaying fallacies is you. First of all, you've equated Wiccans with Satanists, which simply proves that you know nothing about either group.

Second of all, by permitting all religions to be represented, you help to prevent people from being marginalized and you create a culture of inclusion.

Wiccans and Satanist are religions that represent portions/minorities of the country. Thats the point, no equating the two. however, moral/cultural relativism is a logical fallacy, which is what this movement is about. facts are there are no elected hindus in congress that I know of, they've never had hindu prayer before, it was all a stunt. They should not have heckled them also, stupid on hecklers part unless this was staged.

the idea of starting every session of congress with every single religion that someone in the nation presides too is stupid. Especially since the basis for our laws is judeo-Christianity(see the bible) and read William blackstone sometime. Now if we elect hindu's to congress or wiccans or satanist or whatever, then this would make more sense.

No, the basis for our laws is not Judeo-Christianity. For example, cultures believed that killing and stealing was wrong centuries before Judaism or Christianity.

and while I'm not shocked, you do not know your history at all but are well versed in propaganda. the greeks never had any understanding of the freedoms we have today, all you have to do is read Plato's republic to understand that. While they outlawed things like stealing its interesting how they arrived to those conclusions, but that is besides the point.

on the side of Jefferson memorial: “And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God?”
–Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781

Read William blackstone sometime and the founders themselves and the State constitutions from that time(many of which mandated Christianity as the states religion and founders took no issue with), Puritans...this is a really long list. of the 55 founders that wrote the Constitution, all but a few were Christians. Reading the first sentence of Declaration of Indpendence tells you all you need to know about their worldview, one that was unique to govts.
MY point is that if we have a prayer, make it a non-specific prayer OR allow prayers from everyone in the society.

Quote:Our congressmen represent the people, not themselves, so it's completely irrelavant what their religion is. Furthermore, just because a religion is in the minority does not mean that it does not deserve equal treatment; in fact, the Bill of Rights exists to protect the rights of those whose opinions are in the minority. That is, it exists to protect against the Tyranny of the Majority. Take free expression, for example. The person who agrees with the majority opinion can confidently express himself because he knows that he has mob rule behind him; the dissenter can't do that without the First Amendment to protect him.

and using your logic, all religions including satanist should be allowed a ritual before congress starts. Forget the fact that the only reason they've had Christian prayer before is because it goes back to day 1 and we've always had christian of some persuasion reps. in congress freely practicing their religion like the founders intended.

Yes, all religions should be allowed to have a prayer to start Congress, if they so suggest. They are a part of America, and should be treated the same as every other American.

As for history, you need to look at the philosophical underpinnings of both Judaism and Christianity--particularly Christianity, which was heavily influenced by Hellenistic and Egyptian philosophies--before attempting to continue this discussion.

The point is, NO ONE has a monopoly on laws and the basis of Law. Do you even understand the origins of many of the Laws in the Bible?

And as for Plato, I translated Plato.

Washington DC is one of the better examples to give an idea of the foundations of our govt., outside legal minds like William Blackstone and their overall worldview that produced our nation.....

Whitehouse State Dining Room, authored by John Adams:



Moses at the SCOTUS:


10 Commandments on Courthouse doors in SCOTUS building:


hmm, yet we get a ruling that 10 commandments must be removed elsewhere....yet the supreme law of the land has them.

US District Court


Library of Congress:


........the Capital is full of Free Exercise, while its being trampled on elswhere in the country. Judeo-Christian heritage, 52 of the 55 founders(Constitution signers) were Creationist Christians.


---------------------------------------------

all that said, let me repeat that Harry Reids stunt and any future like it should not be booed and is a stupid thing to do.

In short, GG, in my opinion, all religions should be treated equally in this country.

So, it seems that you're arguing against that point.

GGniner Wrote:Washington DC is one of the better examples to give an idea of the foundations of our govt., outside legal minds like William Blackstone and their overall worldview that produced our nation.....

Whitehouse State Dining Room, authored by John Adams:



Moses at the SCOTUS:


10 Commandments on Courthouse doors in SCOTUS building:


hmm, yet we get a ruling that 10 commandments must be removed elsewhere....yet the supreme law of the land has them.

US District Court


Library of Congress:


........the Capital is full of Free Exercise, while its being trampled on elswhere in the country. Judeo-Christian heritage, 52 of the 55 founders(Constitution signers) were Creationist Christians.


---------------------------------------------

all that said, let me repeat that Harry Reids stunt and any future like it should not be booed and is a stupid thing to do.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/capital.asp

http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fa...igion.html <--Congregationalists are NOT Creationists, by the way.

Furthermore, if you researched how many of the signers of the Constitution were Masons: http://bessel.org/constmas.htm You will find that at least 13 of them were Masons. Masons, you should know, believe in religious freedom and expression. They also believe that the different faiths should be held with the same regard, and that one should not be held above the others.

So GGniner, do you or do you not believe that all religions should be treated equally in America?

Yes or no will suffice.

Hinduism has been around for 6,000 years and has had one prayer to open our Congress. I think our nation will survive. The reaction of the peanut gallery was disrespectful and a little pathetic IMHO.

As for the 10 Commandments that was like Moses finding a decoder ring in a box of kids cereal compared to the laws that had already been put in stone in civilizations such as Egypt, Greece, Persia etc..
If God was going to hand down just ten laws to Moses with the issues that were affecting Jews at the time I think abolishing slavery and womens rights would of been somwhere on there with
"You shall not covet your neighbour’s house; you shall not covet your neighbour’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour".