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Bush vetoes Stem Cell research
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Ninerfan1 Offline
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Post: #61
RE: Bush vetoes Stem Cell research
the other Greg Childers Wrote:Is an embryo male or female? Does it have a heartbeat? Is it breathing? Does it have brain activity?

Ah deflection. The time honored tradition among those who are incapable of debate.

I will gladly answer your question when you answer mine, is an embryo life? A simple yes or no will do just fine.
06-26-2007 02:56 PM
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GGniner Offline
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Post: #62
RE: Bush vetoes Stem Cell research
Bourgeois_Rage Wrote:I didn't know we were counting embryos as 3/5 of a person.

People may have justified slavery by saying they were property, but they certainly wanted something counted when the census came around.

the law contridicted itself then with that issue, and it contridicts itself now with abortion. See Scott Peterson being charged with Double Murder...

socially accepted norms being 'legal' yet immoral is nothing new.
06-26-2007 03:02 PM
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GGniner Offline
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Post: #63
RE: Bush vetoes Stem Cell research
the other Greg Childers Wrote:Is an embryo male or female?


depends on the embryo, was the sperm x or y? 03-nutkick

Biologically there's never been an issue of when Human life starts, everything else is propaganda.
06-26-2007 03:04 PM
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blah Offline
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Post: #64
RE: Bush vetoes Stem Cell research
Bourgeois_Rage Wrote:
the other Greg Childers Wrote:Is an embryo male or female?
04-jawdrop

Does it matter?

And if it does, does it then become immoral to kill the baby after this determination can be made?


When ever the abortion issue comes up, I always come back to the lack of input from the male counterpart in the creation of this baby. He has no say whatsoever in the life of the baby. If the mother wants the baby, she can so chose without the aid of the father and vice versa. If she wants to abort the baby, the father has no say in that action as well. Why is that? They each had an equal part in the creation. If she decides to have the baby, the father does not get to decide whether or not to support the child. In a culture where equal rights are supposedly so important, where are the equal rights here?
06-26-2007 03:07 PM
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GGniner Offline
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Post: #65
RE: Bush vetoes Stem Cell research
blah Wrote:Does it matter?

And if it does, does it then become immoral to kill the baby after this determination can be made?


When ever the abortion issue comes up, I always come back to the lack of input from the male counterpart in the creation of this baby. He has no say whatsoever in the life of the baby. If the mother wants the baby, she can so chose without the aid of the father and vice versa. If she wants to abort the baby, the father has no say in that action as well. Why is that? They each had an equal part in the creation. If she decides to have the baby, the father does not get to decide whether or not to support the child. In a culture where equal rights are supposedly so important, where are the equal rights here?


in addition to that, how many aborted fetuses and embryo's could've grown up to one day be on your Avatar or Signature?
06-26-2007 03:17 PM
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EastStang Offline
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Post: #66
RE: Bush vetoes Stem Cell research
Quote:Yes! Slavery must be banned. Oh what? We're not talking about slavery. Showing that slavery is immoral does not prove that anything else is immoral.

Oh well, one thing I have noticed is that this thread is full of unsupported assertions that people want us to take as fact.

So, you do agree that Slavery is immoral? Do you agree that equating humans to property is immoral. Yes or No? If the answer is yes. Then logically it is morally wrong to treat any human as property. And if an embryo is a human by its DNA genome, then why is it appropriate to treat that human as property, but other humans not as property? You would assert well, it isn't a life as yet. Okay, I'll play. Under Judeo-Christian morality, human life begins at conception. "I knew you in your mother's womb." Scientists are in equipose on this issue. Some will agree with the biblical interpretation. Others (out of self-interest perhaps) will tell you that its at viability (or 20-24 weeks). But morality isn't science is it, but it may have its factual basis in science. Embryos are humans. Humans should never be property. Stem Cells are treated as property and not as humans in justifying their use in experimentation. If they were accorded the status of humans, then in my view experimentation on them would be immoral. QED[/quote]
06-26-2007 04:23 PM
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Machiavelli Offline
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Post: #67
RE: Bush vetoes Stem Cell research
Characteristics of Life

Biology - the study of life

Properties of Life

1. Cells ......... Check
2. Organization ........... Check
3. Metabolism .................. No
4. Homeostasis ..................... No
5. Made up of DNA .............. Check
6. Responsiveness ............... No
7. Growth ................. Check

Themes that Unify Biology

1. Cell Structure and Function
2. Reproduction
3. Metabolism
4. Homeostasis
5. Heredity
6. Evolution
7. Interdependence (ecology)

Vocabulary:

Cell - smallest unit capable of life functions (basic unit of life)

Metabolism - the sum of all chemical reactions, metabolism refers to a living organism's ability to consume and use energy (from food or from the sun)

Reproduction - the process by which organisms make more of their own kind

Homeostasis - maintaining stable internal conditions (biological balance)

Heredity - the passing of traits from parents to offspring. The unit of heredity is the GENE - which codes for a trait. When a gene changes, it is called a MUTATION

Evolution - change of a species over time. NATURAL SELECTION is the mechanism by which this change occurs

Ecology - the study of interactions of organisms between each other and with their environment


By these standards an embryo is not life...... Sorry
06-26-2007 08:44 PM
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GGniner Offline
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Post: #68
RE: Bush vetoes Stem Cell research
Mach,

Were you ever a living human embryo?


assuming you answer logically, YES....


Would you be alive today had 'embryo machvelli' been terminated? Your whole life and existence, would it be typing on the keyboard right now had that happened?


assuming you answer logically, NO.....


so, answer this.....would you be ok with scientist using you as a living Human embryo, thus destroying your life and existence? thus not being here right now to type on keyboard and take a position on this...

[Image: onesie.jpg]
(This post was last modified: 06-26-2007 09:51 PM by GGniner.)
06-26-2007 09:49 PM
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Ninerfan1 Offline
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Post: #69
RE: Bush vetoes Stem Cell research
Machiavelli Wrote:Characteristics of Life

Biology - the study of life

Properties of Life

1. Cells ......... Check
2. Organization ........... Check
3. Metabolism .................. No
4. Homeostasis ..................... No
5. Made up of DNA .............. Check
6. Responsiveness ............... No
7. Growth ................. Check

Themes that Unify Biology

1. Cell Structure and Function
2. Reproduction
3. Metabolism
4. Homeostasis
5. Heredity
6. Evolution
7. Interdependence (ecology)

Vocabulary:

Cell - smallest unit capable of life functions (basic unit of life)

Metabolism - the sum of all chemical reactions, metabolism refers to a living organism's ability to consume and use energy (from food or from the sun)

Reproduction - the process by which organisms make more of their own kind

Homeostasis - maintaining stable internal conditions (biological balance)

Heredity - the passing of traits from parents to offspring. The unit of heredity is the GENE - which codes for a trait. When a gene changes, it is called a MUTATION

Evolution - change of a species over time. NATURAL SELECTION is the mechanism by which this change occurs

Ecology - the study of interactions of organisms between each other and with their environment


By these standards an embryo is not life...... Sorry

Sorry dogger, but the list you posted isn't a set of requirements that must all be met to qualify something as "life." Want to know why?

Take for example responsiveness. Is it your assertion something must be responsive to qualify as "life?" Think very carefully before you answer. Naturally if your answer is yes, I will proceed to show how you're wrong. But you're smart enough to know that the answer is no, ergo proving your argument flawed.

The fact of the matter is an embryo is life. It's just as much "life" as what scientists point to as the beginning of life, usually the first appearance of a stable molecule. Lefties like to dance around that, try and say it's not. Because if they acknowledge that it's life, then it begs the question "What kind of life is it?" There can be only one answer, it's human life. Thus we arrive at the simple deduction that embryonic stem cell research and abortion both destroy a human life.

Where most people who are pro choice and pro stem cell choose to make their stand is that an embryo isn't viable outside the mother's womb. Of course that brings with it a whole new set of problems from a debate perspective.

A good friend of mine is an agnostic and a biologist. He's pro embryonic stem cell research and pro choice. Yet even he says that an embryo would constitute human life.
(This post was last modified: 06-26-2007 11:22 PM by Ninerfan1.)
06-26-2007 11:19 PM
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RobertN Offline
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Post: #70
RE: Bush vetoes Stem Cell research
GGniner Wrote:Mach,

Were you ever a living human embryo?


assuming you answer logically, YES....


Would you be alive today had 'embryo machvelli' been terminated? Your whole life and existence, would it be typing on the keyboard right now had that happened?


assuming you answer logically, NO.....


so, answer this.....would you be ok with scientist using you as a living Human embryo, thus destroying your life and existence? thus not being here right now to type on keyboard and take a position on this...

[Image: onesie.jpg]
How many lives were ended short because someone masterbated instead of inseminating a woman and creating an embryo? Just imagine, one of those masterbated sperm could have ended up becoming President down the road. Where does it end(or start actually)? MAny of you are using the Christian/Bible idea of when life starts. How do you know that is truely correct?
06-27-2007 06:26 AM
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TOGC Offline
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Post: #71
RE: Bush vetoes Stem Cell research
Ninerfan1 Wrote:
the other Greg Childers Wrote:Is an embryo male or female? Does it have a heartbeat? Is it breathing? Does it have brain activity?

Ah deflection. The time honored tradition among those who are incapable of debate.

I will gladly answer your question when you answer mine, is an embryo life? A simple yes or no will do just fine.

It is not a human.
06-27-2007 06:31 AM
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Ninerfan1 Offline
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Post: #72
RE: Bush vetoes Stem Cell research
the other Greg Childers Wrote:
Ninerfan1 Wrote:
the other Greg Childers Wrote:Is an embryo male or female? Does it have a heartbeat? Is it breathing? Does it have brain activity?

Ah deflection. The time honored tradition among those who are incapable of debate.

I will gladly answer your question when you answer mine, is an embryo life? A simple yes or no will do just fine.

It is not a human.

So for all your blustering about debate, you've just illustrated how you are so very much not capable of engaging in it.

It's always fun exposing a fraud. But that was too easy.03-lmfao

Go back to the kids table junior, you're out of your league up here with the adults.
(This post was last modified: 06-27-2007 06:54 AM by Ninerfan1.)
06-27-2007 06:53 AM
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Bourgeois_Rage Away
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Post: #73
RE: Bush vetoes Stem Cell research
GGniner Wrote:
Bourgeois_Rage Wrote:I didn't know we were counting embryos as 3/5 of a person.

People may have justified slavery by saying they were property, but they certainly wanted something counted when the census came around.

the law contridicted itself then with that issue, and it contridicts itself now with abortion. See Scott Peterson being charged with Double Murder...

socially accepted norms being 'legal' yet immoral is nothing new.
I agree, the law is goofy on this. The type of selective definitions are what have to go. It's a life when it is helpful to your case, and it's not one when it isn't. That still doesn't change my points that we can't equate this with slavery. It isn't the same thing.
blah Wrote:
Bourgeois_Rage Wrote:
the other Greg Childers Wrote:Is an embryo male or female?
04-jawdrop
Does it matter?

And if it does, does it then become immoral to kill the baby after this determination can be made?
Good points blah, male input is certainly given a back seat on this issue. Though on the opening question, does it matter if you can tell it is male or female: an embryo is certainly male or female. You might not be able to tell by looking, but it doesn't change the fact that the determination has been made. Bringing that question into this is absurd.
EastStang Wrote:So, you do agree that Slavery is immoral? Do you agree that equating humans to property is immoral. Yes or No? If the answer is yes. Then logically it is morally wrong to treat any human as property. And if an embryo is a human by its DNA genome, then why is it appropriate to treat that human as property, but other humans not as property?

I'm sorry, is there any legal precedent that says that the government views the embryo as property? You're trying to equate slaves and embryos, and you're doing this by saying that both are viewed as property. Please show me a legal precedent that says embryos are property. I have no idea if one exists, if you can show me that we can move on with this discussion. Until then you're just spinning your wheels, because I do not accept that embryos are property.
Quote:You would assert well, it isn't a life as yet.

No, I won't.
Quote: Embryos are humans. Humans should never be property. Stem Cells are treated as property and not as humans in justifying their use in experimentation. If they were accorded the status of humans, then in my view experimentation on them would be immoral. QED
Nice jump there. Embryos are humans thus stem cells are humans?
06-27-2007 06:57 AM
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TOGC Offline
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Post: #74
RE: Bush vetoes Stem Cell research
Ninerfan1 Wrote:
the other Greg Childers Wrote:
Ninerfan1 Wrote:
the other Greg Childers Wrote:Is an embryo male or female? Does it have a heartbeat? Is it breathing? Does it have brain activity?

Ah deflection. The time honored tradition among those who are incapable of debate.

I will gladly answer your question when you answer mine, is an embryo life? A simple yes or no will do just fine.

It is not a human.

So for all your blustering about debate, you've just illustrated how you are so very much not capable of engaging in it.

It's always fun exposing a fraud. But that was too easy.03-lmfao

Go back to the kids table junior, you're out of your league up here with the adults.

We have three criteria for whether or not a human is alive.

1) a heartbeat
2) breathing
3) brain activity

An embryo has none of the above.
(This post was last modified: 06-27-2007 07:07 AM by TOGC.)
06-27-2007 07:03 AM
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Ninerfan1 Offline
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Post: #75
RE: Bush vetoes Stem Cell research
the other Greg Childers Wrote:
Ninerfan1 Wrote:
the other Greg Childers Wrote:
Ninerfan1 Wrote:
the other Greg Childers Wrote:Is an embryo male or female? Does it have a heartbeat? Is it breathing? Does it have brain activity?

Ah deflection. The time honored tradition among those who are incapable of debate.

I will gladly answer your question when you answer mine, is an embryo life? A simple yes or no will do just fine.

It is not a human.

So for all your blustering about debate, you've just illustrated how you are so very much not capable of engaging in it.

It's always fun exposing a fraud. But that was too easy.03-lmfao

Go back to the kids table junior, you're out of your league up here with the adults.

We have three criteria for whether or not a human is alive.

1) a heartbeat
2) breathing
3) brain activity

An embryo has none of the above.

So then naturally you would argue that there was no life on earth until a species met all 3 of those.

Scientists would disagree.

I really want Torch to jump in here. He could have some real fun with you.
(This post was last modified: 06-27-2007 07:30 AM by Ninerfan1.)
06-27-2007 07:29 AM
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TOGC Offline
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Post: #76
RE: Bush vetoes Stem Cell research
And embryonic stem cell research still has nothing to do with "killing babies."
06-27-2007 07:41 AM
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Ninerfan1 Offline
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Post: #77
RE: Bush vetoes Stem Cell research
the other Greg Childers Wrote:And embryonic stem cell research still has nothing to do with "killing babies."

That's precious. You'd note I never said it did.
06-27-2007 07:43 AM
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TOGC Offline
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Post: #78
RE: Bush vetoes Stem Cell research
That is the implication. And it's wrong.
06-27-2007 07:51 AM
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Ninerfan1 Offline
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Post: #79
RE: Bush vetoes Stem Cell research
the other Greg Childers Wrote:That is the implication. And it's wrong.

No, it's really not. Since you're a master debator I'm sure you'll appreciate the term "straw man." That's what your insinuation constitutes.

I'd ask you to explain how you arrive there, but my guess is you really don't know.
(This post was last modified: 06-27-2007 08:15 AM by Ninerfan1.)
06-27-2007 08:05 AM
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GGniner Offline
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Post: #80
RE: Bush vetoes Stem Cell research
RobertN Wrote:How many lives were ended short because someone masterbated instead of inseminating a woman and creating an embryo? Just imagine, one of those masterbated sperm could have ended up becoming President down the road. Where does it end(or start actually)? MAny of you are using the Christian/Bible idea of when life starts. How do you know that is truely correct?

Sperm by itself is not a human life, nor is an egg. When a sperm fertilizes and egg, you get a human embryo and the genesis of human life.

I can't beleive I just answered that...
06-27-2007 09:34 AM
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