SO#1 Wrote:Thank for the respond Neil. Going forward, what indicator we should use to guide us for a split?

I'll hold this to last

Quote:FB schools need to decide by 2010 or future spit would cost each of us $5M to leave. We agree any action taken to expand FB members simply undoable under our current setup, regardless how attractive a 9th member happen to be.

Agreed.

Quote:Are you of same option as Jackson our current 8-team all-sport league would produce less money than this 6 yrs contract deal?

Depends. I am of the opinion that some of the bb $$$ were thrown into the fb $$$ to appease the football schools. It didn't matter to ESPN since the two contracts were bundled together. While the 16 team league has some negatives, there can also be strength in numbers.

Quote:I’m surprise people actually believe that our current 8-team league could not sign at least $12M for basketball a year from ESPN and get at least $2M from CBS. Just look at these matches up UConn vs. Louisville will play twice every year, same with Syracuse, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, and West Virginia. How about match up with Louisville and Syracuse or Cincinnati and West Virginia or West Virginia and Pittsburgh. There are so much attractive match up in this current 8-team league to believe that we can’t get at lest $12M for basketball a year from ESPN. I think closer to $18M a year from ESPN, not to mention CBS. These matches up are attractive nationally.

You make some good points. And even if it doesn't result in the same amount of $$$, the football schools may split anyway, since there is unlikely to be an extension of the no exit fees, keep the NCAA units deal.

As for the original question in your post, I think the key indicators as to whether or not the football schools will split are:

1) How the football schools develop over the next two years. Two more years like last year could be enough by itself to make the split both desireable and welcomed, particularly if Pitt and Syracuse start to make a rebound.

2) How many NCAA bids the league gets over the next two years. Two more years of only get 6 bids is not going to be looked upon favorably by the football schools.

3) How ND, Georgetown and Nova react if the first two indicators start to favor a split and they see the gravy train for their non-football sports heading toward the Catholic League version of the Big East.

Cheers,
Neil

I actually think that ND has shown by their actions of looking at future football games with Big East (3 games a yr i believe) that they want to stay tied in to the FB schools in case of a split.
As I think everyone believes the choice is where can you make the most money going forward,we can go back n forth with it but in reality NO ONE here knows the exact figures, im sure the presidents of the FB schools have and will continue to analyze the financial side of both options.

Quote:And even if it doesn't result in the same amount of $$$, the football schools may split anyway, since there is unlikely to be an extension of the no exit fees, keep the NCAA units deal.

....if that is the case...then we don't really have a choice but to split

Quote:3) How ND, Georgetown and Nova react if the first two indicators start to favor a split and they see the gravy train for their non-football sports heading toward the Catholic League version of the Big East.

-- Interesting. Do you expect the football schools to be receptive to that idea? St Johns officials would be freaking out if that occured...LOL

Jackson

Thank again Neil,

Does your first your indicator suggests that because we can’t stand on own two feet that we should continue to live in this hybrid league? Personally I think that why we enter into this arrangement to give both football and basketball schools time to catch their breath after ACC raid. But it was never intend to be permanent union like some suggest.

Your second indicator is interesting. But consider if we get 8 bids but 5 or 6 are from football schools what then.

I think your third indicator suggests Georgetown and Villanova may consider joining football schools to kick out their basketball-only brethren. I know you like to keep “Big East” name but that is ugly to do our formal partners. I rather we not entertain any ideal of any form of hybrid at all and start everything fresh. It maybe hard to start a new conference but in the long run it would be more stable. I like to start a new league and make it so attractive that even PSU and ND may consider joining --- in the distance future, just like when the Big East was started. Quality members make quality league.

Quote:As the earlier poster correctly pointed out, a 9th (Football) team isn't in the cards unless its financially practical to do so;

True. However, if one were to emerge, then the fact the league is currently at 16 means the only way it goes to 9 is to either have them be an associate member for football only (which likely means they aren't worth having) or split.

Quote:however, as long as a 9th team doesn't seek to evict another school or schools to accomplish it, the other half of the conference is not your enemy on this.

It would seem that if Navy is added to the Big East as a Charter member for Football with limited voting rights on Conference issues the concerns on the football side are addressed.

Army and Navy already said no.

TailgateTiger Wrote:Catholic League
De Paul
Georgetown
Marquette
Notre Dame
Providence
Saint John's
Seton Hall
Villanova
Dayton (From A-10)
St. Louis (From A-10)
Xavier (From A-10)
St. Joe's

that would be a great basketball conference, its got the big tv markets and the history. should thrive by themselves

That would never happen. First of all, Villanova would never share a league with St. Joe's since they want to be the big dog in the Philadelphia market.

Second of all, there is no point to a Catholic League having 12 teams, 10 is all they need. Only rising travel costs would make them consider 12 teams.

They would more likely grab Holy Cross from the Patriot League and Xavier from the A-10, then help Dayton and Saint Louis go to the MVC as a combo.

SO#1 Wrote:Thank again Neil,

Does your first indicator suggests that because we can’t stand on own two feet that we should continue to live in this hybrid league? Personally I think that why we enter into this arrangement to give both football and basketball schools time to catch their breath after ACC raid. But it was never intend to be permanent union like some suggest.

It wasn't intended NOT to be a permanent solution either. That's why the 5 year trial basis - to see how things would develop. In other words, try it, you may hate it, but on the other hand, you may like it well.

Besides, Pitt, Syracuse, UConn, West Virginia, and Rutgers had no idea what kind of partners Louisville, Cincinnati, and South Florida were going to be and vice versa.

Quote:Your second indicator is interesting. But consider if we get 8 bids but 5 or 6 are from football schools what then.

Even with the above scenario, the football schools would still have to factor in if they'd have gotten 6 bids in an 8 or 9 team league. After all, to get 6 bids out of 8 from the football schools likely means they were beating up on the bb schools to get decent enough conference records for the 'hypothetical' bids in question.

But in the two years so far, of the 14 bids earned, the football schools have accounted for 7 of them while catholic schools have accounted for the other 7. Granted, both near misses were football schools - Cincinnati in 06 and Syracuse in 07 - but that still isn't an overwhelming advantage for the football schools so far.

Quote:I think your third indicator suggests Georgetown and Villanova may consider joining football schools to kick out their basketball-only brethren. I know you like to keep “Big East” name but that is ugly to do our formal partners. I rather we not entertain any ideal of any form of hybrid at all and start everything fresh. It maybe hard to start a new conference but in the long run it would be more stable. I like to start a new league and make it so attractive that even PSU and ND may consider joining --- in the distance future, just like when the Big East was started. Quality members make quality league.

It would be tough for both Nova and Georgetown to turn, and I'm not saying that they will, but it is a definite possibility that they will at least consider doing so. Whether or not the football schools would be interested is another issue.

Now, what if ND says they will consider going with the football schools, but ONLY if Nova and Georgetown are guaranteed lifetime membership in the new league?

Will the football schools say, "Thanks, but no thanks" or will they do what they have continual done for more than a decade and simply say to the Irish, "Thank you sir. May I have another?"

Cheers,
Neil

Jackson1011 Wrote:

Quote:And even if it doesn't result in the same amount of $$$, the football schools may split anyway, since there is unlikely to be an extension of the no exit fees, keep the NCAA units deal.

....if that is the case...then we don't really have a choice but to split

Perhaps, but on the other hand I don't think the bb schools are going to say the deal lasts ad infinitum.

Quote:

Quote:3) How ND, Georgetown and Nova react if the first two indicators start to favor a split and they see the gravy train for their non-football sports heading toward the Catholic League version of the Big East.

-- Interesting. Do you expect the football schools to be receptive to that idea? St Johns officials would be freaking out if that occured...LOL

Jackson

Well, again, I'm not saying they will turn, but it is a possibility. Both Georgetown and Nova know its the UConns, Syracuses, Louisvilles, Pitts and West Virginias that fill the seats for their games moreso than the Providences, Seton Halls, and St. Johns.

Cheers,
Neil

I understand that it’s a 5 years trial but it seem the BE office present it as forgone conclusion that it a permanent thing. Regardless how well thing going between FB and BB schools but there still that underlying issue separate our union that will not go away but if we decide to part way after 2010 because we simply can't agree that $5M is still a lot of money 5 or 10 years from now. So unless we drop football and eliminate our different or they add D1A football. I don’t see how our different resolve without splitting.

If we don’t know what kind of partners Louisville, Cincinnati, and South Florida were going to be back in ‘03 we should know each other by now.

Having so many basketball teams harm programs in the basement not allowing them to participate in conference tournament. They will get lost with so many teams and never see the sun light for years.

NCAA tournament bids are determine by politic not merit and they don’t want to see one conference to take too many spots. It would be more of 6 bids than 8 bids. And we are going to 18 conference games to accommodate our size but we end up beating up ourselves. So this is not going to help us get more NCAA bids.

Our success in football will make the Irish less and less necessary. We don’t need them in basketball. Next spring and summer will be very interesting after another successful football season.

Quote:Well, again, I'm not saying they will turn, but it is a possibility. Both Georgetown and Nova know its the UConns, Syracuses, Louisvilles, Pitts and West Virginias that fill the seats for their games moreso than the Providences, Seton Halls, and St. Johns.

-- I have a lot of respect for the Hoyas and Wildcats, but I can't imagine how this would be in the football schools best interests unless Notre Dame really upped their commitment to the football shools. If the Irish wanted a lifetime gurantee for Nova, G-Town, then they better be offering to join the football confernece in exchange. I know that would never happen, but that is a lot for Notre Dame to ask just for a few football games per yr

-- If ND doesn't up their commitment...then the presence of G-town and Nova will simply hamper future football expansion...JMO

Quote:Now, what if ND says they will consider going with the football schools, but ONLY if Nova and Georgetown are guaranteed lifetime membership in the new league?

Will the football schools say, "Thanks, but no thanks" or will they do what they have continual done for more than a decade and simply say to the Irish, "Thank you sir. May I have another?"

....^^^ my nomination for post of the month


Jackson

I think it will just come down to dollars.

If FB schools after the split can get higher revenue per school after adding a 9th member from a new FB/BB contract, then split will happen.

I personally have no doubt that FB schools can get a better BB contract per school and maintain the current FB contract. Therefore, I think it is time for a split. FB schools can continue to play GTOWN and NOVA every year to maintain the old BE rivalries. I think schools like GTOWN and NOVA need to think seriously about going D1A in football for the 9th member or will be left behind.

With 12 game schedule, BE needs a 9th member in a worst way. Navy would be good but ECU could happen. I still think UCF makes sense but only after USF has a chance to grow to Miami status.

I know several of you dont want a split unless you can get Penn State or Notre Dame, my question is why add a school that might knock you off the top if you are a Louisville or West Virginia or even Rutgers. Yeah tv wise and image it might be nice but I would rather add a ECU or Temple type to keep the schedule a little fattened up to get wins you need.

There certainly is not any BE football school willing to take Temple back.Furthermore,the idea that there is more than a few BE schools supporting either ecu or memphis has no basis.Navy has said no and ND has said no.

When the Big East football conference first started there was and still is an open invitation for any of their 1-AA football schools (Villanova, Georgetown, and at the time, St. John's) to jump to the conference. None of those teams made any improvements for nearly two decades to prepare for a jump. I really don't see it happening. Plus I don't think either could bring in 30K fans a game like USF. BYU was 26th overall in average attendance last year, too bad they're not close! Other non-BCS schools:
#49 Utah-43K
#50 UTEP-42K
#60 Fresno State-38K
#61 Air Force-38K
#63 East Carolina-37K
#71 Memphis- 32K
#73 UCF- 31K (haha more than USF!)
#107 Temple- 15K
Villanova-8K
Georgetown-2K!!!!!

DFW HOYA Wrote:

CatsClaw Wrote:The point, football can't expand and has no wiggle room because there are 8 schools that don't play football that can shoot down anything the football schools want. It doesn't allow for any versatility with the Division I-A football-playing schools.

The Big East can add four football teams tomorrow, and there's your divisional championship. Either add four from the remaining eight or find four schools willing to be football-only members.

And you just proved the point about why this isn'tgoing to work. The Big East can add four teams but they can't add the teams THEY want because of different situations. If the football schools want another All-Sports member they can't add one without the football schools. And to say that you do it our way or you find four football-only member IS the reason why these conferences have to split. We need to help the football schools and we have basketball school dictating the way it should be done. Do you realize how hard it is to get a football-only member? What if the Big East football schools want Memphis? It'll be tough for Memphis to join because they would have to find a home for the rest of their programs. It's to much of a pain in the rearend for the football schools.

MissouriStateBears Wrote:I know several of you dont want a split unless you can get Penn State or Notre Dame, my question is why add a school that might knock you off the top if you are a Louisville or West Virginia or even Rutgers. Yeah tv wise and image it might be nice but I would rather add a ECU or Temple type to keep the schedule a little fattened up to get wins you need.

Why add a school that might knock you off the top? For the same reason why a Top 15 school like TCU would jump at joining the Big 12 or SEC or Boise State would jump at joining the Pac-10. Money, prestige, stability, national exposure, builds up your brand and increased recruiting avenues and overall major boost to your athletic department. It also makes scheduling easier. The more name brand programs you have in your conference the stronger your conference becomes perception-wise.