I've just started reading through Lou Dobbs book Exporting America.
Obviously he is on the side of nationalism as I am. I'd like to post a few quotes from the book as I read if the moderators will allow it.

From the bottom of page 39:

Quote:The claim here appears to be that the more jobs we send away, the better off we all are. Now, that is a breathtaking analysis and conclusion. The fact of the matter is that the high-paying jobs lost in the recession are being replaced by work in lower-paying industries. Doesn't matter if you're a software programmer, a lawyer, or a medical technician--if your job gets outsourced, chances are that your next job will not pay as well as your old one.

How in the hell is an attorney or medical technician going to be outsourced?

RebelKev Wrote:How in the hell is an attorney or medical technician going to be outsourced?

its not. it would make no logical sense to.

but i'm on the side of globalization, theres nothing we can really do to stop it and becoming economic isolationists will never work in the US, we tired that once didn't work to well.

Tulsaman Wrote:

RebelKev Wrote:How in the hell is an attorney or medical technician going to be outsourced?

its not. it would make no logical sense to.

but i'm on the side of globalization, theres nothing we can really do to stop it and becoming economic isolationists will never work in the US, we tired that once didn't work to well.

When was the U.S. an economic isolationist? That isn't what caused the great depression in the 30's. So what period of time are you referring to?

The people that favor globalization are the elites of our culture whose jobs can't get outsourced. But the middle class which is the majority is being sacrified. I'm telling you I've been looking for a job on the major internet sites and all the jobs in electronics are service type jobs. There is very little manufacturing going on. As little as 10 years ago this wasn't the case at all. We're exporting our manufacturing jobs to Mexico, China, Malaysia, etc. Then, they sell the stuff back to us and it is cheaper. If that isn't enough, we let millions of illegals come in and do other labor jobs that also holds down wages on the middle class doing those jobs. The business elites in this country want cheap labor--period! They want to maximize their profits and to hell with the workers. You have to logically ask that eventually where is the middle class going to get their income and is it going to be middle class wages? The answer to that of course is no. The U.S. is becoming more like a 3rd world country--the haves and have nots, but no middle class majority.

The corporate fat cats are getting richer (and statistics prove that out) and the middle class is getting poorer. Corporate America in cooperation with the government are selling out the middle class in this country to the lowest 3rd world bidders.

RebelKev Wrote:How in the hell is an attorney or medical technician going to be outsourced?

Sure would be easy to out source a pressman or perhaps even your entire printing department though. Just have the artwork done anywhere and have the files sent over the internet to a print shop in India or Mexico. They make the plates, run the stuff and then put in on planes or ships to come back to you. Our business elites will consider that better than paying a good pressman $20/hour. You think that isn't going on now?

I am in the service industry and I am all for Globalization. Lou Dobbs tends to simplify his war on the middle class and exporting America themes.
The major culprit in loss of manufacturing jobs worldwide is automation. The U.S. has lost a smaller percentage of its manufacturing jobs then some of the other major industrialized countries.
Japan has lost 16% of its manufacturing jobs and counting. Even China who gets the blame for everything has lost 13 million manufacturing jobs.

The recession of 2001 and the following lack of demand for manufactured goods accounted for a lot of the job loss. In the U.S. economy we have seen a shift in demand for manufactured goods to services.
The increase in automation has also led to increased productivity levels which decreases the manufacturing work force. Manufacturing employers have also began to meet short term fluctuations in demand by hiring part time workers. It is estimated that the hiring of part time workers accounts for the loss of 1 million manufacturing jobs.

If we were to adopt a fortress America mentality when it comes to our economy it would not work. The globalization train has left the station.
The U.S. economy will continue to evolve as it always has. We will lose jobs in some sectors and gain jobs in others. Lou Dobbs acts like service sector jobs are not good. Well the jobs my wife and I have place us in the top 3% of America for AGI so I am pretty damn happy with them and certainly don't want to be working on any assembly line.

RebelKev Wrote:How in the hell is an attorney or medical technician going to be outsourced?

Attorneys already are:

http://money.cnn.com/2004/10/14/news/eco...g/?cnn=yes

ShoreBuc Wrote:If we were to adopt a fortress America mentality when it comes to our economy it would not work. The globalization train has left the station.
The U.S. economy will continue to evolve as it always has. We will lose jobs in some sectors and gain jobs in others.

I tend to agree with you. Dobbs' oversimplification doesn't do the question justice.

What is really missing is the ethic of honesty. We wouldn't have a thriving economy if it weren't for how much trust we put in our neighbors. Contrary to the myths proposed by those w/ a utopian worldview, that is not a universal trait held by all peoples and cultures. It is however, a necessary one for a healthy economy.

ShoreBuc Wrote:I am in the service industry and I am all for Globalization. Lou Dobbs tends to simplify his war on the middle class and exporting America themes.
The major culprit in loss of manufacturing jobs worldwide is automation. The U.S. has lost a smaller percentage of its manufacturing jobs then some of the other major industrialized countries.
Japan has lost 16% of its manufacturing jobs and counting. Even China who gets the blame for everything has lost 13 million manufacturing jobs.

The recession of 2001 and the following lack of demand for manufactured goods accounted for a lot of the job loss. In the U.S. economy we have seen a shift in demand for manufactured goods to services.
The increase in automation has also led to increased productivity levels which decreases the manufacturing work force. Manufacturing employers have also began to meet short term fluctuations in demand by hiring part time workers. It is estimated that the hiring of part time workers accounts for the loss of 1 million manufacturing jobs.

If we were to adopt a fortress America mentality when it comes to our economy it would not work. The globalization train has left the station.
The U.S. economy will continue to evolve as it always has. We will lose jobs in some sectors and gain jobs in others. Lou Dobbs acts like service sector jobs are not good. Well the jobs my wife and I have place us in the top 3% of America for AGI so I am pretty damn happy with them and certainly don't want to be working on any assembly line.

The main loss of jobs is exporting companies to Mexico, China, etc. The main loss of jobs is not from automation, but from CEO's who see higher profits by taking their manufacturing offshore and then bring back those finished goods with no import taxes whatsoever. Since the 1980s there is a list of thousands of companies who have done just that. Then our deluded president says we must import workers to do jobs Americans wont do. So, corporate America in collaboration with the feds are burning towards the middle class from both ends of the candle as they say. Something has to give, and I'll tell you what it's going to be. It's going to be the standard of living in middle class America is going down.

There's an easy way to stop all this. Put a 300% import tax (or more) on all good coming from China or other 3rd world outfits. Let those countries retaliate against us with the same--who cares. What does China or Malaysia buy from us anyway? The only thing they want are our nuclear secrets and missle guidance technology, etc.

RebelKev Wrote:How in the hell is an attorney or medical technician going to be outsourced?

its already happening for medical technicians. you need someone to make an analysis on an x-ray, send it overseas where it can be done for cheaper, get the results sent back. all through fax/ internet. accounting is getting outsourced to india. attorneys? yup, already being done. this isnt something in the future, this is now. no job is safe. if you think about it, virtually anything can be outsourced.

Quote:There's an easy way to stop all this. Put a 300% import tax (or more) on all good coming from China or other 3rd world outfits. Let those countries retaliate against us with the same--who cares. What does China or Malaysia buy from us anyway? The only thing they want are our nuclear secrets and missle guidance technology, etc.

i will say that its interesting everyone says they're all for a free market. but when push comes to shove, no one really wants to participate in one.

The chief pagan who lives in Seattle just testified before congress today that there should be no limits on H1B visas. I'll bet if most of his corporate buddies were honest, they would say the same thing. That means an unlimited number of engineers, software people, doctors, airline pilots or whatever you can think of. That is the mentality of people running corporate America.

BTW, there was no opposing view to the one presented by Mr. Gates.

Endzone2 Wrote:The chief pagan who lives in Seattle just testified before congress today that there should be no limits on H1B visas. I'll bet if most of his corporate buddies were honest, they would say the same thing. That means an unlimited number of engineers, software people, doctors, airline pilots or whatever you can think of. That is the mentality of people running corporate America.

BTW, there was no opposing view to the one presented by Mr. Gates.

so essentially what you're afraid of is competition. how long do you want the United States to be on training wheels? you talk about the lack of competitiveness of the US with the rest of the world. well, this is the reason. if you make it impossible to do business in the US, or to come work here, you're going to contintue to see us fall further behind to the rising powers. we're not living in the 70's anymore. you can fight it all you want, but global free trade is here to stay. either the US can gets its act together, or it can become a 2nd tier country in the world.

niuhuskie84 Wrote:

RebelKev Wrote:How in the hell is an attorney or medical technician going to be outsourced?

its already happening for medical technicians. you need someone to make an analysis on an x-ray, send it overseas where it can be done for cheaper, get the results sent back. all through fax/ internet. accounting is getting outsourced to india. attorneys? yup, already being done. this isnt something in the future, this is now. no job is safe. if you think about it, virtually anything can be outsourced.

You are confusing a medical technician (someone who takes x-rays) with a doctor (someone who reads them).

Very difficult to outsource the former, very easy to outsource the latter (and thats whats being done).

Attorneys will not lose work from outsourcing. They will gain from it. They will source the more time-intensive parts of their job abroad to lower costs, and free themselves to take on more clients and make more money. Paralegals may lose jobs.

Not every job is at risk to be outsourced. Some elements of some jobs may be, but that will only increase the productivity of the person with that position. Anything CAN be outsourced, but only those areas where we are not competitive WILL be outsourced.

With outsourcing, Americans merely move up the value-chain. I suspect you read Tom Friedman's book, but perhaps didn't take his larger point.

niuhuskie84 Wrote:

Quote:There's an easy way to stop all this. Put a 300% import tax (or more) on all good coming from China or other 3rd world outfits. Let those countries retaliate against us with the same--who cares. What does China or Malaysia buy from us anyway? The only thing they want are our nuclear secrets and missle guidance technology, etc.

i will say that its interesting everyone says they're all for a free market. but when push comes to shove, no one really wants to participate in one.

I do.

I think the problem with international trade, and the reason there is too much global poverty, is that trade isn't free enough. We should drop some of the ridiculous agricultural subsidies and tariffs we have, like sugar. Then we could afford to put real sugar in our food again, instead of that crap high fructose corn syrup (would probably help our obesity/health problem enormously).

Most people in the US and particularly in Europe, seem to have the attitude towards the rest of the world, "Free trade for me, but not for thee"

Endzone2 Wrote:Let those countries retaliate against us with the same--who cares. What does China or Malaysia buy from us anyway?

You don't even want to know whats going to happen to the dollar when they stop buying those.

If by globalism, you mean working cooperatively with other nations to solve the problems of world poverty and hunger, then the answer is yes, I'm a globalist.

But if by globalism, you mean making the U.N. the final authority rather than the Constitution and the Supreme Count, than the answer is no.

Despite our problems and past mistakes, the U.S. is the best thing going. As dysfunctional as Washington can seem sometimes, it compares favorably to our socialist "friends" in western Europe. Anything that would compromise the sovereignty of our great country I would oppose.

OUGwave Wrote:

Endzone2 Wrote:Let those countries retaliate against us with the same--who cares. What does China or Malaysia buy from us anyway?

You don't even want to know whats going to happen to the dollar when they stop buying those.

OUGwave Wrote:

Endzone2 Wrote:Let those countries retaliate against us with the same--who cares. What does China or Malaysia buy from us anyway?

You don't even want to know whats going to happen to the dollar when they stop buying those.

Yes isn't that wonderful. China can now yank our chain anytime they want thanks to all the trillions of dollars we have spent on their goods and thanks to the 1 trillion in bonds they have given us as credit to buy those goods.

I think what you like about free international trade is that it raises the standard of living in China and India. But, you couldn't care less what it does in the United States.

From Lou Dobbs Exporting America page 77:

Staunch protectionists believe we can turn back the clock and use high tariffs to protect every industry in this country. Their absolutism forces most of us to dismiss their concerns and even their valid points. But the absolutists who demand free trade should be dismissed every bit as quickly. It's time for all to realize that a purely ideological commitment to free trade is as foolhardy as absolute protectionism.

Page 79:

Whether it is the importation of petroleum or clothing and food, the exportation of jobs and manufacturing, or the foreign ownership of securities and bonds, America's dependency on the rest of the world has risen to dangerous levels.

Endzone2 Wrote:Yes isn't that wonderful. China can now yank our chain anytime they want thanks to all the trillions of dollars we have spent on their goods and thanks to the 1 trillion in bonds they have given us as credit to buy those goods.

I think what you like about free international trade is that it raises the standard of living in China and India. But, you couldn't care less what it does in the United States.

For every $ we send to China or other countries, we get more than a Dollar back. Some estimates say we get about 1.14 back, others $1.46...bottom line its a net plus.

We may send dollars to China for cheaper goods(that combined with Wal-Mart greatly benefits the poor, more than the govt. can ever do for the poor)....and for each dollar we send they in return send more than a Dollar back. That net gain is increasing jobs in the US, just in different industry segments.


Protectionism, whether free trade or "Fortress America" foreign policy scares the daylights out of me.