mlb Wrote:Since you either can't read or just want to ignore my answer, here you go GB:

Quote:Since you absolultely want to know (it isn't relevant to my point, however), it depends on the situation, GB.

And, while you are at it, here are some questions you decided to ignore:

Quote:Rather than discussing when a fetus become congnicent of life, lets discuss this:

Would you support abortion in the case of rape?
Child molestation?
Where the mother would die if she gave birth?
Where the baby would be infected with a terminal virus at birth?

All of those seem like valid reasons to have an abortion, IMHO.

It depends?? That is your honest answer. In some cases, you would rather die? It really is a cop out answer, but that is pretty much what I expected.

And no, I don't support abortion in any case. There, I took a stand, can you?

mlb Wrote:Would you support abortion in the case of rape?
Child molestation?
Where the mother would die if she gave birth?
Where the baby would be infected with a terminal virus at birth?

All of those seem like valid reasons to have an abortion, IMHO.

1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest
6% of abortions occur because of potential health problems regarding either mother or child
93% of all abortions are elective and occur for social reasons

If abortion was legal for only the first two reasons, the number of abortions per year would drop from 46 million to about 3 million.

To jump a step beyond the abortion debate, instead of abortion how about a license to reproduce?

I have a great solution (in my mind).

Since everyone wants to let the government make decisions for us (such as the abortion choice, or my right to gamble my money away), lets just let the government license people to have kids. Everyone must be on a birth control at all times unless you have a license to go off of the pill/patch/shot (yes, I know this will piss many of you off since in some religions contraception is a sin).

Qualifications:

A. You must have enough money to support the baby.
B. You must demonstrate the ability to care for you baby. This is tested before you can get the license.
C. Have 2 parents.
D. If you demonstrate the inability to care for the baby then you automatically have your license revoked for X number of years, and you then must go through an even tougher evaluation for future licenses.
E. You must pass a commen sense test for parenting.

What else would we need?

Or, if we wanted, we could have it so that everyone has a free right to have kids, until they demonstrate the inability to care for them. At that point you lose all rights to reproduce...

Ninerfan1 Wrote:Can someone point out to me a candidate who simply ran on the fact that they opposed abortion and got elected?

Yes, some people are single issue voters but I would guess the majority are not, hence ranting about people voting on one issue alone is a little pointless based on the fact no candidate runs on just abortion.

I never said a candidate runs on just 1 issue (abortion). I'm referring to the voters who don't listen to the other view points of a candidate. Like I said, I don't want to hear about his abortion stance, plain and simple. Unfortunately on campaign commercials and other political material it is highlight number 1. That is ridiculous in my mind. Give me something that really effects me and my wife, not something that effects a small minority of our society.

Ninerfan1 Wrote:1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest
6% of abortions occur because of potential health problems regarding either mother or child
93% of all abortions are elective and occur for social reasons

If abortion was legal for only the first two reasons, the number of abortions per year would drop from 46 million to about 3 million.

So, would you support it then?

GrayBeard Wrote:

mlb Wrote:

GrayBeard Wrote:You are the one that made the statement that I questioned, and now you clam up. Come on man....

Graybeard, honestly, you won't change my viewpoint on the issue, thus I don't feel like debating it here. I have had this discussion many times, I'm one of the few who believe that it is a personal choice. The person who makes the choice will have to meet the maker at some point, if it is against god's will then he/she will do what he/she needs to do at that point.

And still, the question remains unanswered.

As do mine...

OptimisticOwl Wrote:

GrayBeard Wrote:

mlb Wrote:

GrayBeard Wrote:You are the one that made the statement that I questioned, and now you clam up. Come on man....

Graybeard, honestly, you won't change my viewpoint on the issue, thus I don't feel like debating it here. I have had this discussion many times, I'm one of the few who believe that it is a personal choice. The person who makes the choice will have to meet the maker at some point, if it is against god's will then he/she will do what he/she needs to do at that point.

And still, the question remains unanswered.

As do mine...

Sorry 'bout that. Being that you are optimistic, I would have guessed that you would have known my answer. I would most certainly choose life in all the circumstances that you listed. Miracles do happen!

GrayBeard Wrote:It depends?? That is your honest answer. In some cases, you would rather die? It really is a cop out answer, but that is pretty much what I expected.

And no, I don't support abortion in any case. There, I took a stand, can you?

In a case where I will grow up starving to death (only getting fed in school), have no health care, and no support or love, only to die at a very young age, I'm not sure life is worth living. That is why I said it depends on the situation. I gave you specific situations, of which you said you would:

A. Force a woman to carry a baby from most likely the worst moment in her entire life, having a constant reminder of that day. Many people would go crazy from that kind of situation. Many would also go have an illegal abortion, risking her death.

B. Force a child, possibly as young as 8 or 9 years old (it has happened before), to carry a baby through term, from, once again, likely to be the worst moment in their entire life.

C. Choose to kill a mom, possibly as young as 8 or 9 years old, in order to save the fetus which probably hasn't had any brain development to give any quality of life [yet].

D. Choose to infect a baby with a virus that will kill it, possibly within days of birth (who knows what new STDs and viruses will be around in the future).

I'm glad I'm not your kid or wife in those cases, because I cannot even begin to imagine how bad it would be to have to carry around a fetus for 9 months after being molested or raped... the actions were bad enough, but the memories every day for the rest of your life might be even worse!

mlb Wrote:

GrayBeard Wrote:It depends?? That is your honest answer. In some cases, you would rather die? It really is a cop out answer, but that is pretty much what I expected.

And no, I don't support abortion in any case. There, I took a stand, can you?

In a case where I will grow up starving to death (only getting fed in school), have no health care, and no support or love, only to die at a very young age, I'm not sure life is worth living. That is why I said it depends on the situation. I gave you specific situations, of which you said you would:

A. Force a woman to carry a baby from most likely the worst moment in her entire life, having a constant reminder of that day. Many people would go crazy from that kind of situation. Many would also go have an illegal abortion, risking her death.

B. Force a child, possibly as young as 8 or 9 years old (it has happened before), to carry a baby through term, from, once again, likely to be the worst moment in their entire life.

C. Choose to kill a mom, possibly as young as 8 or 9 years old, in order to save the fetus which probably hasn't had any brain development to give any quality of life [yet].

D. Choose to infect a baby with a virus that will kill it, possibly within days of birth (who knows what new STDs and viruses will be around in the future).

I'm glad I'm not your kid or wife in those cases, because I cannot even begin to imagine how bad it would be to have to carry around a fetus for 9 months after being molested or raped... the actions were bad enough, but the memories every day for the rest of your life might be even worse!

I am also glad that you are not my wife or child.

GrayBeard Wrote:

OptimisticOwl Wrote:

GrayBeard Wrote:

mlb Wrote:

GrayBeard Wrote:You are the one that made the statement that I questioned, and now you clam up. Come on man....

Graybeard, honestly, you won't change my viewpoint on the issue, thus I don't feel like debating it here. I have had this discussion many times, I'm one of the few who believe that it is a personal choice. The person who makes the choice will have to meet the maker at some point, if it is against god's will then he/she will do what he/she needs to do at that point.

And still, the question remains unanswered.

As do mine...

Sorry 'bout that. Being that you are optimistic, I would have guessed that you would have known my answer. I would most certainly choose life in all the circumstances that you listed. Miracles do happen!

I expected you to choose life in every situation, yes, but I thought the idea would give you pause of being born into a situation in which it is very unlikely your would hear the word of christianity and even less likely that you would be a christian. So you would rather be born a Muslim than than never born. Just a little surprised, this is the proverbial rock and a hard place - no easy answer.

OptimisticOwl Wrote:

GrayBeard Wrote:

OptimisticOwl Wrote:

GrayBeard Wrote:

mlb Wrote:

GrayBeard Wrote:You are the one that made the statement that I questioned, and now you clam up. Come on man....

Graybeard, honestly, you won't change my viewpoint on the issue, thus I don't feel like debating it here. I have had this discussion many times, I'm one of the few who believe that it is a personal choice. The person who makes the choice will have to meet the maker at some point, if it is against god's will then he/she will do what he/she needs to do at that point.

And still, the question remains unanswered.

As do mine...

Sorry 'bout that. Being that you are optimistic, I would have guessed that you would have known my answer. I would most certainly choose life in all the circumstances that you listed. Miracles do happen!

I expected you to choose life in every situation, yes, but I thought the idea would give you pause of being born into a situation in which it is very unlikely your would hear the word of christianity and even less likely that you would be a christian. So you would rather be born a Muslim than than never born. Just a little surprised, this is the proverbial rock and a hard place - no easy answer.

I believe in a God that still works miracles, so nothing is impossible.

mlb Wrote:

Ninerfan1 Wrote:1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest
6% of abortions occur because of potential health problems regarding either mother or child
93% of all abortions are elective and occur for social reasons

If abortion was legal for only the first two reasons, the number of abortions per year would drop from 46 million to about 3 million.

So, would you support it then?

I never "support" abortion. However the debate is much different if you're just talking about those two instances. Unfortuantely abortion has become just another form of birth control in this country.

GrayBeard Wrote:My question still stands for all of the "Pro-Choicers". Would you rather die or have a small chance of suceeding in life?

If the choice was mine then of course I would choose live rather than die.

The problem with abortions and other forms of murder is the person who dies does not have any say in the matter. So then what you have to do is decide which forms of murder are okay and which aren't.

I just find it funny that the pro lifers can condemn abortion, but support wars where innocents are killed or support the death penalty.

uhmump95 Wrote:I just find it funny that the pro lifers can condemn abortion, but support wars where innocents are killed or support the death penalty.

Wow, straw man much?

1. Support for a war where innocents are harmed accidentally is not in conflict with a prolife position. Why you say? Because abortion is the willful and deliberate ending of a human life. Collateral damage in a war is not.

2. Support for the death penalty is not in conflict with a prolife position. Why? Becuase the death penalty is punishment for a willful and deliberate murder of another person.

One is accident, the other punishment.

My hope is that one day I can get through an abortion discussion without that pitiful straw man creeping up again. Won't happen though.

Ninerfan1 Wrote:Wow, straw man much?

1. Support for a war where innocents are harmed accidentally is not in conflict with a prolife position. Why you say? Because abortion is the willful and deliberate ending of a human life. Collateral damage in a war is not.

2. Support for the death penalty is not in conflict with a prolife position. Why? Becuase the death penalty is punishment for a willful and deliberate murder of another person.

One is accident, the other punishment.

My hope is that one day I can get through an abortion discussion without that pitiful straw man creeping up again. Won't happen though.

If it weren't for the fact that innocent people have been killed due to the death penalty (and then found later to not have been guilty) maybe I could follow your logic...

You all say that god would not want abortions to happen, which is fine, but then would god want humans to kill other humans as an eye for an eye (especially when the bible preaches for forgiveness)? It seems to me that if god wanted someone dead he would find a way to do it himself without humans intervening, such as in a car crash or something of the sort...

Quote:If it weren't for the fact that innocent people have been killed due to the death penalty (and then found later to not have been guilty) maybe I could follow your logic...

Absolutely no different than the war straw man hump stated above.

A prolife position means that I don't advocate the killing of innocent life. If an innocent person is killed via the death penalty I don't condone that, but it doesn't mean that I'm in conflict with supporting the death penalty as a mechanism of punishment for murderers.

Innocent people die in car crashes every day. Are you going to tell me that my logic doesn't bare out since I support the driving of cars as a means to get around?

Quote:You all say that god would not want abortions to happen, which is fine, but then would god want humans to kill other humans as an eye for an eye (especially when the bible preaches for forgiveness)? It seems to me that if god wanted someone dead he would find a way to do it himself without humans intervening, such as in a car crash or something of the sort...

Is there a barn full of hay around here that I missed?

If there is a chance an innocent person could be sentenced to death, as a pro-life person I would think you don't have an option but to be against the death penalty, that is all I'm saying.

But of course, many pro-life people only care about the unborn fetus' life but not the mother's life... as we have seen today. Personally, I can't support that view...

mlb Wrote:If there is a chance an innocent person could be sentenced to death, as a pro-life person I would think you don't have an option but to be against the death penalty, that is all I'm saying.

If there is a chance an innocent person could be killed in a car crash do I not have the option to support people driving cars?

Let's go a step further. If there's even a chance that a person could be convicted of a crime they didn't commit, then I guess I can't support due process and a court of law can I?

Quote:But of course, many pro-life people only care about the unborn fetus' life but not the mother's life... as we have seen today. Personally, I can't support that view...

Straw, straw everywhere! It's a horses feast in here today.

The above reminds me of a great illustration of a straw man I read once.

Person a - I don't think children should run out into busy streets
Person b - Well I think it would be cruel to lock children up all day long away from fresh air.

Another good one. A man and his wife are ordering dinner. As is the custom, his wife tells him what she wants and he orders for her. The waiter arrives and the man says, "My wife will have the cobb salad and a glass of water. I would like the grilled chicken sandwich and a milkshake to drink." The waiter leaves and the wife says to her husband, "What do you mean I'm fat?"

It seems to me that you can't come up with a good response to those situations, thus you have to start yelling "straw man". Sorry bud, as others have pointed out, this isn't a good vs bad situation, as obviously there are going to be unintended consequences to everything that you do... hence the reason why, in my opinion, people should have the right to choose for themselves. They can decide what works for them and what doesn't, isn't that a basis on which this country was founded?

In my opinion, the government should only protect the innocent. That means they don't protect you from yourself... if someone doesn't want to wear a helmet on a motorcycle, fine. If someone wants to gamble away his money, fine.

The only issue in the abortion debate (when debating with myself) is when a fetus becomes a baby... obviously many people believe it is from conception, while others believe not until some point in the pregnancy. I'm of the opinion that you must make your decision within the first trimester, specifically the first 8 weeks. Simple as that...

mlb Wrote:It seems to me that you can't come up with a good response to those situations, thus you have to start yelling "straw man".

I've explained previous situations you've brought up. You're not bringing up new ones, you're simply modifying arguments that I've already illustrated to be incorrect. But I'll stay specific if you want.

And I noticed you didn't once address the counter examples I used about cars and the justice system as a whole. So a certain pot, meet kettle, dynamic is at play here I think.

My response is the situations you keep coming up with aren't logically sound to begin with. You proceed forward from a premise that I don't grant.

Quote:But of course, many pro-life people only care about the unborn fetus' life but not the mother's life... as we have seen today. Personally, I can't support that view...

Here's why this is a straw man. You carry the argument of, "I don't support abortion," to "I don't care about the mothers life." The two aren't mutually exclusive yet you make them so in an effort to discredit the pro life position.

Example:
Person A - Yeah! The Braves won today.
Person B - Why do you hate the Yankees so much?

Quote:The only issue in the abortion debate (when debating with myself) is when a fetus becomes a baby... obviously many people believe it is from conception, while others believe not until some point in the pregnancy. I'm of the opinion that you must make your decision within the first trimester, specifically the first 8 weeks. Simple as that...

Most people don't have an issue with abortion because it's out of sight, out of mind. You dont' see the baby in the mother's womb, therefore killing it really doesn't affect you that much. A lot easier that way.