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tysramm1 Offline
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Post: #61
 
GDawgs88 Wrote:
flyingswoosh Wrote:nowhere near everyone would be gay.
Of course not, but just think about that. If everyone decided to become gay, would you be okay with it? I don't think so.
u dont have to neccesarily agree with what people do, but at least they should be given the freedom to do what they want
02-08-2004 05:25 PM
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nate jonesacc Offline
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Post: #62
 
GDawgs... How is God against gays?

And PLEASE cite Leviticus 18:22 . PLEASE!
02-08-2004 10:12 PM
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T-Monay820 Offline
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Post: #63
 
nate jonesacc Wrote:GDawgs... How is God against gays?

And PLEASE cite Leviticus 18:22 . PLEASE!
In addition to yours:
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Leviticus 20:13
02-08-2004 10:27 PM
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flyingswoosh Offline
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Post: #64
 
T-Monay820 Wrote:
flyingswoosh Wrote:
T-Monay820 Wrote:
tysramm1 Wrote:IF someone is born gay, do u think God would be against them for being gay?
Hypothetically if they were born gay (which isn't possible because it is a choice): All humans are born into sin. They are condemed just as much as you or I are when we are born. But they can turn away from and reject their sinful ways and accept Christ. But Jesus will never turn away from them and will always accept them if they accept Him.
first thing, maybe you guys could come out from behind this religious ******, and give some logical answers.

second, you're born gay. It isn't a choice. Why would all of those people choose to be gay. it makes no sense.
The question called for a religious view on the question. You preach about tolerance, but when people are religious, you tell them to "come out of hiding behind their religion". Things you believe by faith can't always be explained with logic.
when did we call for a religious view?
02-09-2004 09:30 AM
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flyingswoosh Offline
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Post: #65
 
GDawgs88 Wrote:
flyingswoosh Wrote:nowhere near everyone would be gay.
Of course not, but just think about that. If everyone decided to become gay, would you be okay with it? I don't think so.
i'd be okay with it. But that's a crappy question. If the world got rid of baseball, life would suck, but that's not going to happen.
02-09-2004 09:30 AM
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KlutzDio I Offline
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Post: #66
 
I, for one, know that homosexuality is somewhat natural, or that it does occur in nature among animals (and humans are just a high form of animal).

Anyone who has ever spent any time on a farm knows that male animals will occaisionally try and mate with other males. I've seen this and it is indeed disturbing. Just as disturbing as homesexual men copulating with one another.

Sometimes among humans homosexuality is a choice and sometimes the attraction to other males or females is your "sexual orientation." This means they were born with an attraction to the same sex. Can't explain it...

Most gay folks I know say they realized they were gay or different as early as 6 years old. That convinces me.

Oh yeah, most gays I know also had heterosexual parents, in a stable home environment.

With all this in mind, why would one want to make the choice to be gay when there's all this discrimination and hatred they have to deal with for making that choice?

The bible aside, there's nothing wrong with gay marriage. Gays are not a threat to marriage any more than heterosexuals are, you know the ones on their fifth marriage!

All this debate from the Pres. solidifies my opinion of him. He is a religious fanatic! :mad:
02-09-2004 10:28 AM
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KlutzDio I Offline
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Post: #67
 
GDawgs88, your answers are far from logical.

When you cite the Bible and God as an authority on anything, you commit the logical fallacy of appeal to authority. It also begs the question...what makes God an authority and how do we know what God wants and does not want us doing?

Your answers are indeed irrational.

Wryword posted the best argument in opposition to legalized gay marriage.

I'll add to his argument:
Legalization of gay marriage would be unfortunate because chancery courts that decide divorces and child custody are already swamped with cases. Many of these cases will not be decided for three years down the road. Legalizing gay marriage would also legalize gay divorces and those added divorces into the chancery system would bog it down indefinitely. Therefore, gay marriage should not be legalized because it would cause a further backlog in the chancery courts.

There's some holes in this line of argumentation, but I'll leave that to you guys to pick through it!
02-09-2004 10:37 AM
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Post: #68
 
Gay marriage? I can see churches being forced to perform them or their tax-exempt status will be revoked....so......nope. I'm against them.

Gay, state-recognized unions? Hey, whatever fudges their popsickle. Not my business what two consenting adults do so long as it doesn't effect another's rights.
02-09-2004 11:57 AM
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USMC Offline
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Post: #69
 
KlutzDio I Wrote:what makes God an authority and how do we know what God wants and does not want us doing?
Dio,

I think his answers are right on. What makes God an authority? The fact that he is the creator of everything is good enough for me. And, he saved me! We know what God wants by studying his word. You say it is full of contradictions, but, if you read it with an earnest heart, you will see that there is not one contradiction in it, nope, not one.
02-09-2004 12:34 PM
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KlutzDio I Offline
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Post: #70
 
USMC Wrote:
KlutzDio I Wrote:what makes God an authority and how do we know what God wants and does not want us doing?
Dio,

I think his answers are right on. What makes God an authority? The fact that he is the creator of everything is good enough for me. And, he saved me! We know what God wants by studying his word. You say it is full of contradictions, but, if you read it with an earnest heart, you will see that there is not one contradiction in it, nope, not one.
Marine,

Your response begs the questions:
How do you know for a fact that God is the creator of everything?
If you base this "fact" on the Bible, then how do you really know this is the word of God?
Even if the Bible is the word of God, then how do you explain what is lost in translation (words change from language to language and the meaning of words change over time)?

I could go on here. Strictly from a logical standpoint, GDawg88's responses commit logical fallacies. Now this does nothing to affect yours or his beliefs. Beliefs by definition are entirely illogical. And I use Kierkegaard here to explain why beliefs in conjunction with Christian religion must be illogical:

Kierkegaard:
"the question is of faith. In order to be a Christian, a true Christian, one must have faith. Faith cannot be proven or disproven because doing so would remove the capacity for faith."
What this means is faith drives Christianity and the individual's belief in it. If Christianity were proven "true" then no one would believe in it because no one would have to believe in it, it would be fact. Proving Christianity true removes faith from all believers and potential believers. Without faith, there is no Christianity or any other religion for that matter.

That in mind, you and the Georgia fan believe in Christianity and it can never be proven true, or else you guys wouldn't have to believe in it.

Beliefs are tricky things. I can believe something with all my heart, but simply doing so does not make it true. I can, for example, believe 2+2=5, but merely believing it so does not make it true.

P.S. I have read the Bible cover to cover and it does nothing to affect my life. I really, really wanted it to affect my life (so I could be like everyone else) at one time, but that never happened. I just couldn't get over all the incest in Genesis and all the people killed by the Christian god.
Also, the cruxifixion of Christ mirrors the story of Socrates, whom preceded Christ by about 500 years. The resurection story also parallels a myriad of other mythological stories through human history. See also Campbell's The Transformation of Myth Through Time.
02-09-2004 01:59 PM
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Post: #71
 
KlutzDio I Wrote:Marine,

Your response begs the questions:
How do you know for a fact that God is the creator of everything?
If you base this "fact" on the Bible, then how do you really know this is the word of God?
Even if the Bible is the word of God, then how do you explain what is lost in translation (words change from language to language and the meaning of words change over time)?
of Myth Through Time.
How do I know he is creator? Well, let me ask you this. Of the evidence that supports the creation (the legs inside the Boa, which supports this theory, or the sharks teeth being found in mountain tops, which supports the flood later in Genisis), is there any such evidence to disprove the creation, or anything the bible says for that matter. There is not ONE piece of evidence (solid) that can. If you have any, share, I would like to see it. Just for discussion's sake that is.
02-09-2004 02:07 PM
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T-Monay820 Offline
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Post: #72
 
flyingswoosh Wrote:when did we call for a religious view?
tysramm1 Wrote:IF someone is born gay, do u think God would be against them for being gay?
02-09-2004 06:32 PM
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flyingswoosh Offline
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Post: #73
 
T-Monay820 Wrote:
flyingswoosh Wrote:when did we call for a religious view?
tysramm1 Wrote:IF someone is born gay, do u think God would be against them for being gay?
my point was that, I never called for a religious view. I wanted to speak logically.
02-09-2004 06:35 PM
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T-Monay820 Offline
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Post: #74
 
KlutzDio I Wrote:P.S. I have read the Bible cover to cover and it does nothing to affect my life. I really, really wanted it to affect my life (so I could be like everyone else) at one time, but that never happened. I just couldn't get over all the incest in Genesis and all the people killed by the Christian god.
Also, the cruxifixion of Christ mirrors the story of Socrates, whom preceded Christ by about 500 years. The resurection story also parallels a myriad of other mythological stories through human history. See also Campbell's The Transformation of Myth Through Time.
Reading the Bible alone is not the only thing you have to do to improve your life. You have to have faith in God that whatevers happens, good or bad, its part of His plan for you. Also, you have to apply the teachings of the Bible (I know Nate, I know...) to your daily life to see impact. And finally, God isn't there to help you every minute of your life and give you whatever you want whenever you want it. I believe somewhere the Gospels it has Jesus saying "Do not test the Lord your God."

Why God killed/smited/eliminated the people of the earth is always going to be a puzzlement (thus the phrase "The Lord works in mysterious ways").

The ultimate proof for God's existance is/was the coming of Jesus to fulfill the prophesies and show the wonder of God as a caring and compassionate God. Unfortunately we weren't there so we have to have faith in the writings of the New Testament and the accounts of the people who were there.
02-09-2004 06:42 PM
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Post: #75
 
Marine,

Those questions in the previous response I made to you were rhetorical questions. The question begging fallacy brings up so many rhetorical questions that can be debated until the end of time and for that reason alone, it is a logical fallacy.

<a href='http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/begging-the-question.html' target='_blank'>This site explains the fallacy better than I do.</a>

To answer the challenge you gave me, though. I can easily disprove the Christians' central belief contained in the Bible. That is the resurrection of Christ. Christ was man, lived as man, died as mortals do. Humans don't come back to life after being dead three days time. That is simply impossible, which leads one to several different conclusions:
1. Christ wasn't human (which is hard to prove and doubtful).
2. Christ didn't die (again, hard to prove).
3. The resurrection is a metaphorical story as in "born-again Christian" is a metaphor describing someone's life as a Christian who lost their faith and then regained it.

In regard to your challenge, though, I must add that even if the flood of genesis is true, that doesn't mean all of the Bible is true. While the things you mention might are a part of the historical and archeological record, it does not "prove" that Yahweh or Jesus Christ did these things or set these actions into motion. Anyone or anything could have set these actions into motion and that is one of the great mysteries of our universe. Claiming that the God of the Bible did this, is indeed, a simplistic answer to a very complicated question(s).

Also, to claim that God is a "he" is an anthropormorphism, which means placing that which is infinite, mysterious, divine in human-like terms. The god I believe in is not anthropomorphic rather, god is something that simply cannot be explained given our limited understanding of the otherworldly.

If the Bible is true, like you say, then that would mean god is perfect (because the Bible states such). If that is so, logically we can deduce that a perfect being needs nothing, or else that being would cease to be perfect. A perfect being would not move and would have no need for anything because that would suggest the being's lack of something, which in-turn would suggest the being is less than perfect (perfect beings, if any, would lack nothing and would need nothing and would do nothing because the being(s) are perfect).
With this in mind, why did God of the Bible create anything at all? The answers the Bible gives to that question suggests that God wanted to give to us the "gift" of creation. That is where the contradiction lies. A perfect being would not "want" or "desire" anything because that being is perfect.

Like I said in a previous post, Marine. It is futile for Christians to "prove" that God exists, or that Jesus was the son of God and by extention, God. It is futile and sinful for a Christian to prove their faith, because any proof would deny that Christian the faith necessary to be a "believer." Think about that.

Instead of attempting to prove to me that the Bible is true, or that God exists, I suggest you take a different approach. You should, instead, be persuading me that I need the Bible and that I need to read it, that my very life depends upon me reading the Bible and believing in it. Simply attempting to prove all or part of the Bible suggests that you need some kind of "proof" in order to believe it, which suggests you lack faith in that which you believe.

Lastly, in regard to the Bible and all its wonderful stories, I suggest reading Joseph Campbell who has done an awful lot of research on the biblical stories from genesis to Exodus. In his many books he suggests the biblical stories are not original and the gist of the stories are found in many cultures' mythology, if not actual history. The story of Socrates, the greek philosopher and ethicist, directly parallels Christ's life and death (the big difference being that no one assumed or asserted that Socrates was the son of God). Historical evidence strongly supports Socrates' existence and he did indeed die in the manner in which he did. This story and Socrates' teachings traversed the globe as a result of the Greeks' seafaring culture. It is not absurd to conclude that this story got mixed up with Jesus', another ethicist.

I think we've come a long way on debating whether or not gays should marry or if being gay is wrong. The Bible says it is wrong, but it also says alot of other things are wrong that we all take part in, i.e. touching the dead skin of a pig (should football be banned?). Christians regularly pick and choose which belief system contained in the Bible is true and should be followed, and that which is not true and should not be followed. With this in mind, how do we really know that being gay is really wrong?

And, even if the Bible does say that being gay is wrong, this does nothing to compel anyone not to be gay. In addition, we are talking about the legal status of gays, being gay and being able to marry legally. For legal questions, we follow the Constitution of the United States, not the Bible. While the Constitution might or might not have been influenced by biblical teachings is beside the point. The way I interpret the Constitution, gay marriage should be permitted. Nothing whatsoever in the Constitution speaks of gay marriage, specifically abolishing the practice.
02-09-2004 06:42 PM
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nate jonesacc Offline
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Post: #76
 
T-Monay820 Wrote:
nate jonesacc Wrote:GDawgs... How is God against gays?

And PLEASE cite Leviticus 18:22 . PLEASE!
In addition to yours:
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Leviticus 20:13
Corinthians... "male prostitutes"... not strictly homosexuals... but homosexual males who practice premarital sex for money.

Levicitus passages... What about owning slaves? Stoning your children? What about being executed for picking up sticks on the Sabbath? Should we adhere to those also?
02-09-2004 06:43 PM
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T-Monay820 Offline
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Post: #77
 
flyingswoosh Wrote:
T-Monay820 Wrote:
flyingswoosh Wrote:when did we call for a religious view?
tysramm1 Wrote:IF someone is born gay, do u think God would be against them for being gay?
my point was that, I never called for a religious view. I wanted to speak logically.
I wasn't answering any of your questions. I was answering Steven's, which called for a religious arguement. To some of us, our faith is the base of our thoughts and our logic is derived from that.
02-09-2004 06:43 PM
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T-Monay820 Offline
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nate jonesacc Wrote:Levicitus passages... What about owning slaves? Stoning your children? What about being executed for picking up sticks on the Sabbath? Should we adhere to those also?
Why shouldn't we?
02-09-2004 06:46 PM
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nate jonesacc Offline
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Post: #79
 
T-Monay820 Wrote:
nate jonesacc Wrote:Levicitus passages... What about owning slaves? Stoning your children? What about being executed for picking up sticks on the Sabbath? Should we adhere to those also?
Why shouldn't we?
Because parts of the Bible are interpreted completely falsely!
02-09-2004 07:13 PM
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Post: #80
 
nate jonesacc Wrote:
T-Monay820 Wrote:
nate jonesacc Wrote:Levicitus passages... What about owning slaves? Stoning your children? What about being executed for picking up sticks on the Sabbath? Should we adhere to those also?
Why shouldn't we?
Because parts of the Bible are interpreted completely falsely!
Says you.
02-09-2004 07:43 PM
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