Look, the man is dead. Today is a day to say nice things about him. You've displayed many pro Reagan quotes, and I'm sure I could dig out just as many. The wires are filled with them.

May the man rest in peace.

The contention that brought me out of the wordwork was that Reagan was one of our nation's greatest presidents.

I can't accept that.

I accept that Reagan was important. I accept that he was popular. I accept that Reagan and his clear expression of values connected with people in a way no president had since Kennedy or Roosevelt.

I accept that he did more than any other president in luring a majority of Southern whites to the Republican Party. I accept that he meant well, and that he had a good heart.

But he wasn't a great president.

I resent the way he demonized the poor, with his apocryphal story of a Welfare Queen driving a Welfare Cadillac. I resent his regressive tax policy. I resent the way he ruined my next door neighbor's life.*

And I have plenty of other resentments, too. Sweep them all aside, and there is still the fact that Reagan was a major airhead.

He was a principled airhead, but an airhead just the same. He quite clearly and specifically defied Congress by allowing his adminstration to trade arms to terrorists and then use that money to support thugs trying to restore authoritarian rule to Nicaragua.

He could have been impeached for that offense -- which was a far graver threat to our democracy than anything Bill Clinton ever did. The only reason Reagan wasn't impeached, it seems, is that clearer heads concluded he was genuinely too dense to realize what was going on around him.

I think Congress felt sorry for the old man.

Air heads are often popular. Look at George Bush II -- or, for that matter, Britney Spears.

But they aren't truly great presidents.

----

* My next door neighbor was an air traffic controller.

Chill. It's a mere 24 hours after his death. I don't plan to post any further about Reagan after today. It's one mega-thread on one day (if you don't count the Spin Room one).

When Carter dies, the wires will also honor him with positive quotes and news stories on the day after.

FWIW, the quotes weren't necessarily directed at you, per se. It was general reading material for any passers-by. I should've made that clearer.

Quote:I resent the way he demonized the poor, with his apocryphal story of a Welfare Queen driving a Welfare Cadillac.

I know, I know. It's politically incorrect to the literal extreme to suggest that a segment of the "poor" were abusing a publicly-funded system. Shoulda just swept it under the rug, Ron, as to not offend anyone. :rolleyes:

Schadenfreude

Motown Bronco Wrote:I know, I know.  It's politically incorrect to the literal extreme to suggest that a segment of the "poor" were abusing a publicly-funded system.   Shoulda just swept it under the rug, Ron, as to not offend anyone.   :rolleyes:

Quoting Washington Monthly:

Cadillac Queens.
Over a period of about five years, Reagan told the story of the "Chicago welfare queen" who had 80 names, 30 addresses, 12 Social Security cards, and collected benefits for "four nonexisting deceased husbands," bilking the government out of "over $150,000." The real welfare recipient to whom Reagan referred was actually convicted for using two different aliases to collect $8,000. Reagan continued to use his version of the story even after the press pointed out the actual facts of the case to him.

<a href='http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2003/0309.mendacity-index.html' target='_blank'>http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/...city-index.html</a>

This says a lot about Reagan -- and I suppose the nicest face that can be put on it is that it shows just how effective a communicator he was.

With this story, Reagan tapped into a mix of beliefs people already tended to have about welfare:

1. That people on it are living quite well (Temporary Assistance to Needy Families (formerly AFDC), the federal program that gives unemployed parents a bit of cash for their children, has never brought families close to the poverty line).
2. That welfare is rife with fraud and abuse (Compared with what? Statistically, this is highly debatable).
3. That the kind of folks who are on welfare tend to be lazy and African-American. (The Washington Monthly snippet doesn't spell this out, but, as Reagan told the story, "Chicago" was often modified by "inner city" or "South Side," which would tend to steer listeners in that direction.)

It was a clever story. It pulled people to Reagan's side who, for reasons of class interest, might not otherwise support the wholescale demolitiion of government or huge tax cuts to the wealthy. It also helped push much of the South into the red state column (along with broad swaths of northern blue collar whites -- Macomb County, Mich. was a case study in this sort of thing).

But it was a lie -- and a lie with racial overtones.

Yeah, I resent that.

Reagan was one of the most influential in ending a problem that plagued not just this country but the whole world for nearly 50 years. For his role in ending the cold war he has to be regarded as one of the best presidents in the past 50 years. You may not agree with all of his policies but who could you argue having a larger impact in the World since FDR and Truman? The bottomline is that he got done what people had been trying to do for nearly 50 years. Of course you could argue the Soviet Union was near colapse anyways but anyone has to admit that Reagan's relationship with Gorbachev was key to the breaking up of the Soviet Union. It takes longer than just 16 years to fully qualify the success of a President but there were only a handful who have been clearly better than Reagan. Lincoln, Washington, Jefferson and FDR to name a few.

Terpy Wrote:The bottomline is that he got done what people had been trying to do for nearly 50 years.

Actually, it all unfolded under Bush I.

Quote:Of course you could argue the Soviet Union was near colapse anyways

And I would.

Quote:It takes longer than just 16 years to fully qualify the success of a President but there were only a handful who have been clearly better than Reagan.&nbsp; Lincoln, Washington, Jefferson and FDR to name a few.

The four you have named are on coins.

Mark my words: The GOP is going to try to put Reagan on a coin. The plans are probably being drawn up already. My guess: They'll sack Kennedy and try to put Reagan on the half-dollar.

That would be a terrible sin.

I'm not saying Kennedy is coin-worthy. He was assassinated, and they put him on a coin out of grief.

But Reagan? It would be a terribly divisive, ideological thing to do.

Democrats should respond by proposing a Martin Luther King half dollar. Now *that's* a legacy.

Schadenfreude Wrote:

Terpy Wrote:The bottomline is that he got done what people had been trying to do for nearly 50 years.

Actually, it all unfolded under Bush I.

The wall came down in 1991, Diplomacy between Reagan and Gorbachev allowed for it. What is your goal in belittling a man a day after his death? You know as well as I do, that you don't want to give any credit to anyone named Bush. You are just doing it because you don't want to give any credit to Reagan either. I guess Tip O'Neil caused the breakup of the Soviet Union. :rolleyes:

Of course he wasnt soley responsible for the destruction of the Soviet Union but he was essential and that, more than anything else will, as it should, be his legacy.

Why infer that he had no role?

BTW, I agree MLK probably should be on a coin.

Terpy Wrote:What is your goal in belittling a man a day after his death?

People can and should say nice things.

But "one of America's greatest presidents?"

I can't sit quietly after hearing that.

So what we have here is Reagan "michaelmooreing" a story?

I don't deny it. Why Reagan had to resort to creating this outlandish composite is unfortunate, using specific numbers. Why not just say that some are abusing the welfare system? These are, after all, peoples' tax dollars, and deserve to know it is being put to good use. (FWIW, I remember watching MTV years ago whereas relatively well-off Old Dirty Bastard of the Wu Tang Clan picked up food stamps with his ID card. Our tax dollars at work. Kudos to ODB for exposing that).

But as you said, it's politics as usual, much like when Sen. John Edwards talks of a 10-year-old girl going to sleep freezing without a coat... from the figment of his imagination. (C'mon, John, coats can now be found for $5 in any thrift shop)

Grab at the voters with a little emotionally-charged class warfare. Politics as usual.

A bit off-topic, but I never find it a waste of time holding the government accountable for how taxation is allocated, even in "minor" cases. One of the primary reasons the US has been among the most affluent and most free nations on the planet is that Americans (well, for the most part) question government expenditures, and call out its misuse and abuse. It's healthy. I highly disagree with fabricated anectodal "stories" designed to manipulate public opinion (which every politican of every stripe does). But if someone is taking advantage of a publicly-funded system - be it a corporate CEO or a welfare recipient - it needs to be addressed.

As far as the poverty line (an amount usually erroneously defined by the federal government for political purposes) and who can afford what, I read a <a href='http://articles.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_20_51/ai_56220678' target='_blank'>recent report</a> that illustrated some of this with interesting results. Take it for what it's worth, though. It's not from one of the major news outlets (and I can see why ... this report is not very PC and they mustn't cause waves among their readership). But it can be easily located on a lot of media outlets by running a googol search using key words.

Quote:Macomb County, Mich.

You found me! :D

Quote:Mark my words: The GOP is going to try to put Reagan on a coin. The plans are probably being drawn up already. My guess: They'll sack Kennedy and try to put Reagan on the half-dollar.

No way. I wouldn't mind partaking in a friendly wager here. I cannot see them replacing Kennedy, or any other coin's presidents, with RR. I'll eat up my words if it happens.

Motown Bronco Wrote:But as you said, it's politics as usual, much like when Sen. John Edwards talks of a 10-year-old girl going to sleep freezing without a coat... from the figment of his imagination. (C'mon, John, coats can now be found for $5 in any thrift shop)

I'm not sure this is exactly the same.

You don't believe there are kids in this country that go without proper winter clothing?

Set aside our vastly different views on what the size of America's social welfare system ought to be -- and I'm still incensed by that welfare queen riff because of the implied race-baiting.

Quote:

Quote:Mark my words: The GOP is going to try to put Reagan on a coin. The plans are probably being drawn up already. My guess: They'll sack Kennedy and try to put Reagan on the half-dollar.

No way. I wouldn't mind partaking in a friendly wager here. I cannot see them replacing Kennedy, or any other coin's presidents, with RR. I'll eat up my words if it happens.

Well, I say they try. Maybe it would be the $1 coin. Maybe it would be a new $2 bill. I don' t know. But I expect they'll try.

And if I'm wrong, I'd suffer a friendly wager. In fact, I'd propose using a picture of Ronald Reagan as my signature -- but I'm already doing that. (Couldn't resist).

Schadenfreude Wrote:

Terpy Wrote:What is your goal in belittling a man a day after his death?

People can and should say nice things.

But "one of America's greatest presidents?"

I can't sit quietly after hearing that.

What you see Schadenfreude doing in this thread is typical of the radical left and why they have such a hard time appealing to the mainstream.

1. Arguing a point when it is not only unnecessary, but quite unwelcome.

It is a thread to honor a man that did great things and has suffered the last ten years with a horrible disease. Your argument is not going to accomplish anything here. You will not change any opinions. No one with switch to your side because you speak the ultimate truth. I'll give you just enough credit to say that you are smart enough to know this, but believe that you just have to be heard anyway. Of course, which makers it even more pathetic because you are not actually trying to accomplish anything. You just like to read your own words.

2. Continuing to argue a point after it has been made.

Make a point and move on to the next point. Hell, just move on anyway. If you honestly believed that what you are saying is right and impossible to refute then let it stand on it's own. Why the need to say it over and over again? Maybe you are trying to convince yourself rather than anybody else.

Just damn.


Schad, I am sorry for your friend, but what would happen if the military were to go on strike because of pay? Well, thankfully, they can't. The Democrats of recent times have NEVER been friends of the military. John Kerry has voted AGAINST everything that would help our military out, I.e. the M1A1 upgrade, the B-2, the F-117, pay increases, etc., etc., etc. The military, if they could, would have striked in a heartbeat. They are the ones that are protecting the country.


Just for the record, I am against taking Kennedy off of the coin. He was a decorated WWII vet and served with dignity on PT-109 and with the US Navy. Regardless of politics, he was a man of integrity.

ccs178 Wrote:

Schadenfreude Wrote:

Terpy Wrote:What is your goal in belittling a man a day after his death?

People can and should say nice things.

But "one of America's greatest presidents?"

I can't sit quietly after hearing that.

What you see Schadenfreude doing in this thread is typical of the radical left and why they have such a hard time appealing to the mainstream.

1. Arguing a point when it is not only unnecessary, but quite unwelcome.

It is a thread to honor a man that did great things and has suffered the last ten years with a horrible disease. Your argument is not going to accomplish anything here. You will not change any opinions. No one with switch to your side because you speak the ultimate truth. I'll give you just enough credit to say that you are smart enough to know this, but believe that you just have to be heard anyway. Of course, which makers it even more pathetic because you are not actually trying to accomplish anything. You just like to read your own words.

You actually make a good point here.

There is a high art to speaking honestly and respectfully of the dead. I don't claim to to have mastered it, and I could have much tried harder than I did.

As I've said, a couple of times, Reagan had a good heart. May he rest in peace.

Quote:As for your air traffic controller buddy. F**k him. By going on strike he tried to cripple the economy and put passengers' lives in danger. He got what he deserved. If losing one job ruined his life than it sounds like he had set himself up for a fall already. I know people who lost their jobs as air traffic controllers. None of them had their lives ruined and are doing really well to this day.

My neighbor worked hard and played by the rules. All he wanted to do was put food on his family's table.

He had a good job at Detroit Metro -- and leaving it to hit the street with his labor brothers and sisters was probably the bravest thing he ever did in his life. He was no labor organizer, no Jimmy Hoffa. But he did what his sense of duty told him he had to do.

See, where I grew up, when the union walks, you walk. You stick together. The union brought America the eight hour work day -- and it didn't come easy. Where I'm from, without unions, the middle class would be so small as to be unrecognizable. Where I'm from, a man can do honest work with his hands and still have enough money left at the end of the year to take a vacation or send your kid to college. Unions are the reason why.

So my neighbor honored all that. He did what his sense of duty and the values he grew up with told him he had to do. He walked.

Reagan didn't just hire replacement workers. He didn't just fire my neighbor and 11,000 other people like him. He didn't just arrest leaders of the strike.

He went further. In effect, my neighbor and 11,000 of his coworkers were *blacklisted*. More than 11,000 careers went up in smoke.

For years, America didn't have enough air traffic controllers, but the Reagan administration refused to hire any of those strikers back.

My neighbor ended up getting together with a friend and ended up starting up a bar in a suburb about 45 minutes away. He hated that job, but he did it because he had to do it. No airport anywhere near his home -- and probably, no airport in the country -- had a job for him.

His wife ended up going to work too, probably so they could have health insurance.

For nearly 20 years, my neighbor tried to get a job as an air traffic controller, but was always refused. From what I understand, they just weren't hiring any of those PATCO guys back, period.

Finally, a few years ago, my neighbor landed a job at Willow Run Airport, which is about halfway between Detroit and Ann Arbor. He was one of the first PATCO guys hired back.

Willow Run does general aviation and some frieght -- but it sure isn't Detroit Metro. In baseball terms, I imagine it to be like playing in a rookie league after starting for the Tigers.

And he's happy. He truly is happy to finally have a air traffic control job after 20 years in the wilderness.

But, boy, to think what could have been.

I recognize PATCO was asking for an awful lot in an era when a lot of people had it very hard. Back then, it seemed lilke every manufacturer was laying off people. I've never looked it up, but I remember being told my suburbs had something like a 30 percent unemployment rate in the depth of that recession.

It was so bad, my father worked his county job without pay for a couple months. The county was insisting people still come in to work, but it wasn't paying them. Imagine that!

It was bad.

But my neighbor got screwed. His career was nuked, and some of it was for ideological reasons.

Schadenfreude Wrote:

Terpy Wrote:The bottomline is that he got done what people had been trying to do for nearly 50 years.

Actually, it all unfolded under Bush I.

Quote:Of course you could argue the Soviet Union was near colapse anyways

And I would.

Quote:It takes longer than just 16 years to fully qualify the success of a President but there were only a handful who have been clearly better than Reagan.  Lincoln, Washington, Jefferson and FDR to name a few.

The four you have named are on coins.

Mark my words: The GOP is going to try to put Reagan on a coin. The plans are probably being drawn up already. My guess: They'll sack Kennedy and try to put Reagan on the half-dollar.

That would be a terrible sin.

I'm not saying Kennedy is coin-worthy. He was assassinated, and they put him on a coin out of grief.

But Reagan? It would be a terribly divisive, ideological thing to do.

Democrats should respond by proposing a Martin Luther King half dollar. Now *that's* a legacy.

<a href='http://www.wkyt.com/Global/story.asp?S=1927815' target='_blank'>http://www.wkyt.com/Global/story.asp?S=1927815</a>

No opinion on the discussion, but see above...

So SF you dont think there has been a good president since FDR? To me Ronald Reagan was a great President and a great man. After the Carter abortion, he restored pride in America. The man on his second run for the Presidentsy was only 2500 votes short of a 50 state sweep! May the Holy Farther comfort you and keep you President Ronald Wilson Reagan.

Schadenfreude Wrote:My neighbor worked hard and played by the rules. All he wanted to do was put food on his family's table.

He had a good job at Detroit Metro -- and leaving it to hit the street with his labor brothers and sisters was probably the bravest thing he ever did in his life. He was no labor organizer, no Jimmy Hoffa. But he did what his sense of duty told him he had to do.

See, where I grew up, when the union walks, you walk. You stick together. The union brought America the eight hour work day -- and it didn't come easy. Where I'm from, without unions, the middle class would be so small as to be unrecognizable. Where I'm from, a man can do honest work with his hands and still have enough money left at the end of the year to take a vacation or send your kid to college. Unions are the reason why.

So my neighbor honored all that. He did what his sense of duty and the values he grew up with told him he had to do. He walked.

Reagan didn't just hire replacement workers. He didn't just fire my neighbor and 11,000 other people like him. He didn't just arrest leaders of the strike.

He went further. In effect, my neighbor and 11,000 of his coworkers were *blacklisted*. More than 11,000 careers went up in smoke.

For years, America didn't have enough air traffic controllers, but the Reagan administration refused to hire any of those strikers back.

My neighbor ended up getting together with a friend and ended up starting up a bar in a suburb about 45 minutes away. He hated that job, but he did it because he had to do it. No airport anywhere near his home -- and probably, no airport in the country -- had a job for him.

His wife ended up going to work too, probably so they could have health insurance.

For nearly 20 years, my neighbor tried to get a job as an air traffic controller, but was always refused. From what I understand, they just weren't hiring any of those PATCO guys back, period.

Finally, a few years ago, my neighbor landed a job at Willow Run Airport, which is about halfway between Detroit and Ann Arbor. He was one of the first PATCO guys hired back.

Willow Run does general aviation and some frieght -- but it sure isn't Detroit Metro. In baseball terms, I imagine it to be like playing in a rookie league after starting for the Tigers.

And he's happy. He truly is happy to finally have a air traffic control job after 20 years in the wilderness.

But, boy, to think what could have been.

I recognize PATCO was asking for an awful lot in an era when a lot of people had it very hard. Back then, it seemed lilke every manufacturer was laying off people. I've never looked it up, but I remember being told my suburbs had something like a 30 percent unemployment rate in the depth of that recession.

It was so bad, my father worked his county job without pay for a couple months. The county was insisting people still come in to work, but it wasn't paying them. Imagine that!

It was bad.

But my neighbor got screwed. His career was nuked, and some of it was for ideological reasons.

but what reagan did was right. Those particular workers weren't allowed to strike. The government had a contract with them and the contract said that if they strike, they could be fired. Reagan stood up to them, what's wrong with that? The answer is, nothing. The PATCO guys should not have broken their contract agreement.

I also did not believe that they should have been able to strike. It's akin to the TSA or the military striking. It's an issue of national security. I'm a private pilot and, while I don't have ANY kind words for the TSA, these guys deserved maybe a raise, but what they were asking for was unreasonable. Who's to watch our airspace if the ATC's aren't there? The military can't watch it all.

...that doesn't even hit on how detrimental it was to the economy. If it were to happen today, the stock market, IMO, would crash. NO freight. NO passenger service. Hell, tell you what, when I came back to Alaska on the 31st of May, yep damn Memorial Day, I was supposed to leave Augusta on Delta at 7AM, get to Atlanta at 8:02AM, fly out at 8:42AM for Seattle and catch a connecting flight to Fairbanks on Alaska Air at about 3:30PM Alaska time('bout 12 hours of flight time). What HAPPENED was there was bad weather in Atlanta, the busiest airport in the world passenger-wise, so we were grounded in Augusta 'till 9:30AM. Well, I missed the flight for Seattle because I got to Atlanta at 10:30. The "observer" flew from Daytona Beach and was supposed to catch the same flight to Seattle. She didn't make it either and was grounded in DB about the same time. Of course, everyone else in the country was screwed as well. They finally rerouted us to DFW but we didn't leave Atlanta for DFW until 6PM. We got to Seattle at 11:30PM PT and stayed in the damn airport 'till 8AM PT. We had to fly to Anchorage and then to Fairbanks. We didn't get to Fairbanks until 12:30PM Alaska time....the next day. Yep, 33 effin hours.

My point is that was just one snag....the weather, and 3 people, Me, the other instructor, and an observer. Think about All ATC's going on strike. It would not only crush our economy, but put the nation at serious risk as they are the ones watching the skies. When I fly out of Augusta, I use the Altanta tower. I know their job is tough, believe me I do know, but they took the job and knew what it paid beforehand.