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I never saw Black Hawk Down
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Schadenfreude Offline
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Post: #1
 
Does it resemble this?

<a href='http://real.usatoday-na-central.speedera.net/ramgen/real.usatoday-na-central/040331_iraq_attacks.rm' target='_blank'>http://real.usatoday-na-central.speedera.n...iraq_attacks.rm</a>
03-31-2004 06:45 PM
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T-Monay820 Offline
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Post: #2
 
Your sick. I can't believe you are actually mocking the death of American's. 03-puke
03-31-2004 07:31 PM
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Wryword Offline
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Post: #3
 
Schadenfreude, I am assuming you were not being sarcastic with your question. If you were being sarcastic, you are an ******. If you really didn't see Black Hawk Down, yes, there is a certainly similarity. As for myself, thinking of the movie A Bridge Too Far, if I were the commander on the scene, I would give the order to flatten that town.
03-31-2004 07:58 PM
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ccs178 Offline
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Post: #4
 
Schadenfreude Wrote:Does it resemble this?

<a href='http://real.usatoday-na-central.speedera.net/ramgen/real.usatoday-na-central/040331_iraq_attacks.rm' target='_blank'>http://real.usatoday-na-central.speedera.n...iraq_attacks.rm</a>
If you are trying to be funny and/or sarcastic, it is in very poor taste.
03-31-2004 09:14 PM
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DukeofDrums Offline
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Post: #5
 
Why don't you ask the families? I'm sure they'll find humor in this.

:thumbdown:

That is insulting and disrespectful.
04-01-2004 12:17 AM
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Schadenfreude Offline
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Post: #6
 
Seriously, I haven't seen the movie.

I do know that certain people never let a sense of piety for the people dragged through the streets of Mogadishu get in the way of using the incident to bash the Clinton administration*

I also know George W. Bush campaigned on his opposition to "nation building."

Finally, I know what Vice President Dick Cheney said to TIm Russert on March 16, 2003:

"We will, in fact, be greeted as liberators."

Anyone want to sort through this for me? How does one connect all these dots?

---
* Even though it was the current president's father who initally sent our troops there.
04-01-2004 07:39 AM
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Road Warrior Offline
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Post: #7
 
Quote:Seriously, I haven't seen the movie.


You should. It's good.

Quote:I do know that certain people never let a sense of piety for the people dragged through the streets of Mogadishu get in the way of using the incident to bash the Clinton administration


So two wrongs make a right? Attempts to point at another's misdeeds to deflect criticism of your own is pretty pathetic.

Quote:I also know George W. Bush campaigned on his opposition to "nation building."

He did. What are you suggesting? That after removing two regimes that threatened us, we should just let the countries descend into anarchy? That's just silly.

Quote:Finally, I know what Vice President Dick Cheney said to TIm Russert on March 16, 2003:

"We will, in fact, be greeted as liberators."


We have been. These dickheads in the Sunni Triangle no more represent the bulk of opinion of the Iraqi people than you do. That's like suggesting a good indication of American opinion is how Africans would be received at the next Aryan Nation rally. I would think the journalism department at BG would include at least a rudimentary survey of the biased sample fallacy of logic.

Those of you interested in what "the iraqi people" think should read:

<a href='http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/15_03_04_iraqsurvey.pdf' target='_blank'>Iraq Survey</a>

Quote:Conducted by Oxford, it surveys a wide range of people from all over the country. Significant parts are:

Q1 - Overall, how would you say things are going in your life these days: very good, quite good, quite bad, or very bad?

Very good 13.4
Quite good 56.6
Quite bad 14.2
Very bad 14.8
Difficult to say 1.1
Total 100.0

From today's perspective and all things considered, was it absolutely right, somewhat right, somewhat wrong or absolutely wrong that US-led coalition forces invaded Iraq in Spring 2003?

Absolutely right 19.6
Somewhat right 28.6
Somewhat wrong 12.9
Absolutely wrong 26.2
Difficult to say 12.7
Total 100.0

Apart from right and wrong, do you feel the US-led coalition force invasion

Humiliated Iraq 41.2
Liberated Iraq 41.8
Difficult to say 17.0
Total 100.0

Now that you have told me about your political action, I would like to ask you
what you find acceptable or not acceptable about the political action of other
people.

Base = Respondents who are aware of the organisation
Acceptable
Not acceptable
Not sure/NA
Total

Attacks on coalition forces 17.3 78.0 4.7 100.0
Attacks on the CPA 13.6 81.7 4.6 100.0
Attacks on foreigners working alongside the CPA
10.2 85.7 4.0 100.0
Attacks on Iraqis who work for the CPA
4.6 92.7 2.7 100.0
Attacks on foreigners who work for the UN and similar international humanitarian organisations
4.3 92.6 3.1 100.0
Attacks on Iraqis who work for the UN and similar international humanitarian organisations
2.7 95.1 2.2 100.0
Attacks on the New Iraqi police 1.5 96.6 2.0 100.0
04-01-2004 08:30 AM
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joebordenrebel Offline
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Post: #8
 
"That after removing two regimes that threatened us. . ."

Now how did Afghanistan and Iraq threaten us? I'm still a little hazy on that one. . .
04-01-2004 06:50 PM
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Wryword Offline
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Post: #9
 
joebordenrebel Wrote:"That after removing two regimes that threatened us. . ."

Now how did Afghanistan and Iraq threaten us? I'm still a little hazy on that one. . .
Hazy, JBR? You know better than that

Afghanistan: Under control of the Taliban, who were quite happy to have that country used as a training and staging base for Bin Laden. There is no serious question about this. You may ask whether the Taliban were a clear and present danger to us. I am not sure they were, of themselves. But they actively aided and abetted a group that most certainly was and it is right to infer from that fact that they were as malignant as Al Quaeda. In any event, unless you have a kink about burquas (sp), I don't think anyone would say that the Taliban's passing was a bad thing.

Iraq: Here I agree with you that there was not an obvious, clear danger to us this last go - round. I deeply regret that George the Dumb did not finish this business in 1991. However, it is quite clear that Iraq was merely biding its time, waiting for the day that it might coil and strike again. That it seems now that it was incapable of striking at the time we invaded does not mean that we were wrong to invade. I think it is a silly thing, a dangerous thing, to adopt a universal rule to the effect that you do not attack until attacked. Weapons are far more dangerous than they were sixty years ago. A pre-emptive attack is justifiable. Iraq was weak, but it was not changed.

Besides this, we are in fact engaged in a great chess game in the world, and taking out a pitiless, cruel regime like that in Iraq, and putting in one that will let parents feel that they and their children will not be taken in the night and killed in the morning is a good thing. And if Iraq can show material advantages in that part of the world from having a government of laws, governed by civilized men rather than brutes, this may have a vast beneficial effect. I grant you that the risks are very high, because those people there are not inclined for a number of reasons to accept the ideals of the Christian West. I fear as well that we will not succeed. But this is no reason not to try. If we do not try, we will not have the chance to avoid the so-called clash of civilizations. By trying, we may still have that horror, but we might, just maybe avoid it.

Beyond that, getting shed of a mobster like Saddam Hussein and his party is a good thing.
04-01-2004 08:42 PM
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Schadenfreude Offline
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Post: #10
 
Road Warrior Wrote:
Quote:I do know that certain people never let a sense of piety for the people dragged through the streets of Mogadishu get in the way of using the incident to bash the Clinton administration

So two wrongs make a right? Attempts to point at another's misdeeds to deflect criticism of your own is pretty pathetic.
We aren't talking about two wrongs, or even one.

The horrific sight of American bodies dragged through the streets of Mogadishu triggered a deep breath on the part of many Americans, who began to scratch their heads and start asking important questions, such as:

-- What are we doing in Mogadishu?
-- Is the cost of what we are trying to achieve worth the benefit?

I would submit that this latest horrific sight might be another moment for us to perhaps take a deep breath and think about just what we are doing in Iraq.

I'm not going to apologize for linking to that horrific footage. I never supported this war.

Those of you who did take a look.

There is your war.

Is it worth it?

Quote:
Quote:I also know George W. Bush campaigned on his opposition to "nation building."

He did. What are you suggesting? That after removing two regimes that threatened us, we should just let the countries descend into anarchy? That's just silly.

Iraq didn't attack us.

Iraq didn't threaten to attack us.

And if Iraq had threatened to attack us, it is debatable whether such a threat should have been taken seriously, considering Iraq capability to follow through on such a threat.

So I disagree with your premise. This was a war of choice, not a war of necessity.

We chose war. Are the benefits we can reasonably expect worth the price?

Quote:
Quote:Finally, I know what Vice President Dick Cheney said to TIm Russert on March 16, 2003:

"We will, in fact, be greeted as liberators."

We have been. These dickheads in the Sunni Triangle no more represent the bulk of opinion of the Iraqi people than you do. That's like suggesting a good indication of American opinion is how Africans would be received at the next Aryan Nation rally. I would think the journalism department at BG would include at least a rudimentary survey of the biased sample fallacy of logic.

Those of you interested in what "the iraqi people" think should read:

<a href='http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/15_03_04_iraqsurvey.pdf' target='_blank'>Iraq Survey</a>

Quote:Conducted by Oxford, it surveys a wide range of people from all over the country. Significant parts are:

Q1 - Overall, how would you say things are going in your life these days: very good, quite good, quite bad, or very bad?

Very good 13.4
Quite good 56.6
Quite bad 14.2
Very bad 14.8
Difficult to say 1.1
Total 100.0

From today's perspective and all things considered, was it absolutely right, somewhat right, somewhat wrong or absolutely wrong that US-led coalition forces invaded Iraq in Spring 2003?

Absolutely right 19.6
Somewhat right 28.6
Somewhat wrong 12.9
Absolutely wrong 26.2
Difficult to say 12.7
Total 100.0

Apart from right and wrong, do you feel the US-led coalition force invasion

Humiliated Iraq 41.2
Liberated Iraq 41.8
Difficult to say 17.0
Total 100.0

Now that you have told me about your political action, I would like to ask you
what you find acceptable or not acceptable about the political action of other
people.

Base = Respondents who are aware of the organisation
Acceptable
Not acceptable
Not sure/NA
Total

Attacks on coalition forces 17.3 78.0 4.7 100.0
Attacks on the CPA 13.6 81.7 4.6 100.0
Attacks on foreigners working alongside the CPA
10.2 85.7 4.0 100.0
Attacks on Iraqis who work for the CPA
4.6 92.7 2.7 100.0
Attacks on foreigners who work for the UN and similar international humanitarian organisations
4.3 92.6 3.1 100.0
Attacks on Iraqis who work for the UN and similar international humanitarian organisations
2.7 95.1 2.2 100.0
Attacks on the New Iraqi police 1.5 96.6 2.0 100.0

First, polls taken in Third World countries are notoriously unreliable.

For one thing, the paucity of telephones complicates the challenge of generating a truly reliable sample.

Also remember that Americans are occupiers.

Some experts express great concern that Iraqis who have been polled suffer from a tendency to tell the pollsters -- who resemble the occupiers a great deal -- what they want to hear. We are talking about people who lived in a police state for a generation, people who have grown up in an environment where it is safest to watch what you say.

But set those concerns aside. Let's focus on these "these dickheads in the Sunni Triangle."

We aren't talking about the trench coat mafia or Timothy McVeigh -- loners or small collections of loners who are bizarre freaks to the rest of society.

We are talking about a whole slab of Iraqi society -- a slab that, until recently, was in *charge* of Iraq and still represents a majority of significant sections of the country.

Mao talked about needing a sea in which to swim. These "dickheads" would appear to have one. One need look no farther than that video. It wasn't as if these guys were wearing masks or afraid to be caught on camera. They didn't care.

The Sunnis have ruled Iraq for generations. They see the handwriting on the wall. They are outnumbered by Shiites.

(And I haven't even touched on the Kurds, who want nothing to do with either of these groups. The only reason Kurdistan is going to remain part of Iraq (for now) is external political considerations. In other words, the U.S. doesn't want to piss off Turkey).

So... I guess the goal here is, what? Forge a modern unified democracy out of this mess?

It's not that I think Bush can pull this off. I would be shocked if he can. Shocked!

The only real question is whether or not he can fake enough of the American people into *thinking* he can for about seven more months.
04-01-2004 09:10 PM
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ccs178 Offline
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Post: #11
 
Schadenfreude Wrote:
Road Warrior Wrote:
Quote:I do know that certain people never let a sense of piety for the people dragged through the streets of Mogadishu get in the way of using the incident to bash the Clinton administration

So two wrongs make a right? Attempts to point at another's misdeeds to deflect criticism of your own is pretty pathetic.
We aren't talking about two wrongs, or even one.

The horrific sight of American bodies dragged through the streets of Mogadishu triggered a deep breath on the part of many Americans, who began to scratch their heads and start asking important questions, such as:

-- What are we doing in Mogadishu?
-- Is the cost of what we are trying to achieve worth the benefit?

I would submit that this latest horrific sight might be another moment for us to perhaps take a deep breath and think about just what we are doing in Iraq.

I'm not going to apologize for linking to that horrific footage. I never supported this war.

Those of you who did take a look.

There is your war.

Is it worth it?
It's obvious that you don't have a clue about what happened in Somalia. Forget the movie, read the book. Read the interviews of the US soldiers who survived that mission. Watch the PBS documentary. Then come back and try to preach.
04-02-2004 11:35 AM
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joebordenrebel Offline
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Post: #12
 
Wryword Wrote:Afghanistan: Under control of the Taliban, who were quite happy to have that country used as a training and staging base for Bin Laden. There is no serious question about this. You may ask whether the Taliban were a clear and present danger to us. I am not sure they were, of themselves. But they actively aided and abetted a group that most certainly was and it is right to infer from that fact that they were as malignant as Al Quaeda. In any event, unless you have a kink about burquas (sp), I don't think anyone would say that the Taliban's passing was a bad thing.
We killed more civilians in an order to track down a small band of thugs? The way we went in, you'd have thought the Taliban and Al Quayder were the same thing. They weren't.

Using that logic, we should've bombed Paris Island because Timothy McVeigh trained there.

More in a sec. . .I have a class on Clinton to teach. :D
04-02-2004 11:55 AM
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joebordenrebel Offline
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Post: #13
 
Now, Afghanistan is reverting to the mess it was before we bombed the hell out of them.

<a href='http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1182992,00.html' target='_blank'>http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,...1182992,00.html</a>

In addition, you need to think about NOT throwing your newspapers down the memory hole everytime the liberal press tells you to, Wry. Your ignorance about our "war" in Afghanistan is shocking.

We went in to take out the Taliban? Was that our rationale for war? Did the Taliban board planes and hijack them on 9-11? 13 of the 19 were Saudi Arabian. Why didn't we go there instead? Would Nicaragua have been justifed in invading America for the same reasons?

The war there in Afghanistan was revenge against "the other"--nothing more.

It accomplished ZILCH.

And your own paragraphs acknowledges that you can even stomach the propaganda about Iraq. You know we had no reason to go there. Stop kidding yourself and face the real world.
04-02-2004 01:19 PM
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joebordenrebel Wrote:Now, Afghanistan is reverting to the mess it was before we bombed the hell out of them.

<a href='http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1182992,00.html' target='_blank'>http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,...1182992,00.html</a>

In addition, you need to think about NOT throwing your newspapers down the memory hole everytime the liberal press tells you to, Wry. Your ignorance about our "war" in Afghanistan is shocking.

We went in to take out the Taliban? Was that our rationale for war? Did the Taliban board planes and hijack them on 9-11? 13 of the 19 were Saudi Arabian. Why didn't we go there instead? Would Nicaragua have been justifed in invading America for the same reasons?

The war there in Afghanistan was revenge against "the other"--nothing more.

It accomplished ZILCH.

And your own paragraphs acknowledges that you can even stomach the propaganda about Iraq. You know we had no reason to go there. Stop kidding yourself and face the real world.
Hey Joe, did you support the Kosovo offensive? Tell the truth now!


As far as Afganistan goes, the purpose there was two fold. 1) To track down and kill UBL and Al Queda (terrorists) & 2) to drive the Taliban out of power (an oppressive regime that willingly harbored a terrorist organization).

Did we handle the situation the best way possible...I don't think so. I feel we should have used more ground troops, but that would have driven our casualties up. More ground troops would have made it easier to kill or capture UBL, Omar, etc.
04-02-2004 02:35 PM
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joebordenrebel Offline
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Post: #15
 
"Hey Joe, did you support the Kosovo offensive?"

No.

"1) To track down and kill UBL and Al Queda (terrorists) & 2) to drive the Taliban out of power (an oppressive regime that willingly harbored a terrorist organization)."

Did we have to bomb the whole freakin' country in order to track down and kill bin Laden? And seeing as how we never really killed him, I guess that negates your first point, eh?

And why did the Taliban suddenly become enemy number 1? Just because they didn't turn bin Laden over on a silver platter?
04-02-2004 04:11 PM
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joebordenrebel Wrote:Did we have to bomb the whole freakin' country in order to track down and kill bin Laden? And seeing as how we never really killed him, I guess that negates your first point, eh?

And why did the Taliban suddenly become enemy number 1? Just because they didn't turn bin Laden over on a silver platter?
:roflol: :roflol: :roflol: :stupid: :stupid:

See, there is no way to respond to your idiotic posts. Common sense boy, common sense!
04-02-2004 04:18 PM
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Post: #17
 
Maybe you could just try.

I mean, I know you are GOD and all, but perhaps (yessuh, Bossman!) you could just lay out WHY my argument is "idiotic."

I dare you.
04-02-2004 04:33 PM
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Post: #18
 
Quote:Did we have to bomb the whole freakin' country

We didn't bomb the whole freakin country!

Quote:And seeing as how we never really killed him, I guess that negates your first point, eh?

No, my first point was...To track down and kill UBL and Al Queda (terrorists) So, we have not been completely successful, but we are still at it. Is killing ALL of Alqueda realistic? Probably not, but it still doesn't negate my point.

Quote:And why did the Taliban suddenly become enemy number 1?

They did not become enemy #1, but since they would not turn over UBL, we had to go through them to get to him. The president made it clear...Those that harbor terrorists will be treated the same as the terrorists themselves! They knew what the consequences were, or maybe they just underestimated the USA. Either way, we followed through on our threat.



Quote:I know you are GOD

No I am not, and I would never claim to be God!

03-nutkick
04-02-2004 04:42 PM
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joebordenrebel Offline
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Post: #19
 
"We didn't bomb the whole freakin country!"

Okay, I'll agree. We didn't bomb the entire freakin' country (every square inch). But we DID drop a lot of bombs.

Some of them cluster bombs (really nasty bombs):

<a href='http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/arms/cluster-bck1031.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/arms/clust...ter-bck1031.htm</a>

Some fell on non-military targets:

<a href='http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1740538.stm' target='_blank'>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asi...sia/1740538.stm</a>

The number of bombs dropped is "classified" but it's estimated here:

<a href='http://www.cursor.org/stories/abovethelaw.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.cursor.org/stories/abovethelaw.htm</a>

You next point was "to track down and kill UBL and Al Queda."

No UBL. Al Queda, as you acknowledge, is not realistic. NEXT!

"but since they would not turn over UBL, we had to go through them to get to him. The president made it clear... Those that harbor terrorists will be treated the same as the terrorists themselves! They knew what the consequences were, or maybe they just underestimated the USA. Either way, we followed through on our threat."

So it was our way or the highway?

Wow! What diplomacy!

Seriously, we never really even considered a diplomatic solution. Why? We said to the Taliban "You've got him! Now hand him over or we're going to attack you." What are we? The world's beacon for democracy? Or its biggest bully? And once bin Laden went into hiding, how could the Taliban turn him over? Are you saying they knew where he was but refused to give him up? Pshaw!

Now, there were many countries and organizations who were going to back us provided we prove bin Laden was behind the attacks.

"Nato is now drawing up an emergency plan for a massive attack on Afghanistan if proof emerges that Osama bin Laden, the wanted Saudi-born terrorist sheltered by Afghanistan, was responsible for the attacks."

But that evidence was largely circumstantial:

<a href='http://www.guardian.co.uk/afghanistan/story/0,1284,554882,00.html' target='_blank'>http://www.guardian.co.uk/afghanistan/stor...,554882,00.html</a>

Hell, this article alleges we were going in regardless.

<a href='http://www.guardian.co.uk/afghanistan/story/0,1284,1176690,00.html' target='_blank'>http://www.guardian.co.uk/afghanistan/stor...1176690,00.html</a>

And this doesn't really address any of the points we discussed, but it's still good reading on the subject of Afghanistan.

<a href='http://www.atimes.com/c-asia/CJ06Ag02.html' target='_blank'>http://www.atimes.com/c-asia/CJ06Ag02.html</a>

Your floor, master debater. I mean, er, your Holiness?
04-02-2004 06:34 PM
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joebordenrebel Offline
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Post: #20
 
Copyright 2004 Times Newspapers Limited
The Times (London)

April 2, 2004, Friday

SECTION: Overseas news; 22

LENGTH: 1098 words

HEADLINE: Images of Fallujah confront America

BYLINE: Bronwen Maddox

BODY:
IT DOES not look as if Fallujah will prove a "Mogadishu moment" - a point of sudden revulsion when Americans lose their heart for a war. The response, so far, has been muted, and not for lack of media coverage, despite editors' very public agonising about how much of the horror to show.

But the brutal scenes of the burning, mutilation and hanging of four US contractors could more insidiously undermine support for the Iraq deployment as the message of Fallujah sinks in. The images show just how deeply some Iraqis - even children - hate the American presence. It is delusion to pretend that, in important parts of Iraq, the coalition is welcome.

It is inevitable that the scenes from Fallujah on Wednesday would be compared with the 1993 massacre of 18 US Rangers in the Somalian capital, and the television pictures of one body dragged through Mogadishu's streets, to cheering crowds.

When US forces left Somalia, six months later, the Clinton Administration said it was handing over as planned to the United Nations. But no one was in doubt that Americans' horrified response to the television pictures was the real cause, even though sympathy for starving Somali children, as seen on television, had provoked the deployment in the first place.

This time, the reaction has been less sharp. Yet people were not shielded from the details, at least in newspapers.

Some television channels shied away from the most shocking images; others blurred the features of the bodies. But yesterday one talking point - on television - was the decision by The New York Times and The Washington Post to lead their front pages with two explicit images.

The New York Times showed two of the burned and decapitated torsos hanging by wire from a bridge. The Post used a picture of charred remains, still in recognisably human form, surrounded by elated young men - boys, really. Two are flapping the soles of their shoes at the corpse, in a traditional insult. All are dressed in Western-style sports shirts and jeans, looking like American teenagers.

Some images were not used by mainstream media, and relayed only on newswires and the internet. One of the first transmitted from Fallujah was of a man's hands rising out of the flames, burnt solid black and contorted into claws by the heat.

Another was of a body, still recognisable, with blood streaming across the street, as a limb began to burn.

US editors wrestled publicly with their dilemma. They wanted to convey the full horror, but were afraid of offending readers and viewers, and seeming disrespectful to the dead men and their families.

After Mogadishu, they were also aware of the political potency of such scenes. One CNN anchorwoman asked viewers: "Does today change the way you look at the war?"

If the American public does not react to Fallujah as it did to Mogadishu, why not? One bald reason is that these were security contractors, hired to protect private businesses, rather than soldiers.

So the massacre was not a symbol of military defeat, like Mogadishu. As captured in the film Black Hawk Down, US teams swarmed into the narrow streets of the Somalian capital to try to seize rebel leader Muhammed Farrah Aidid, and fought for two days to save each other, in what became a rout.

Contractors are also clearly much more vulnerable than soldiers. Yesterday a big US-backed trade fair in Iraq was postponed because of contractors' fears that they are becoming popular soft targets.

Most important, in Somalia, there was already enormous public unease about the US's involvement in a far-off conflict with no apparent exit.

That isn't yet the case in Iraq. Polls - which this week show President Bush with a solid lead over Democrat John Kerry - suggest most feel it is too soon to pull out of a war the US began.

Yet the message of Wednesday's killings is clear. In some parts of Iraq, the Americans are hated. No matter if they are contractors trying to rebuild power lines and water supplies, they are loathed as symbols of foreign occupation.

Tony Blair insisted yesterday that most Iraqis want coalition troops to stay. "The vast majority of Iraqi people are not wanting that (attacks) to happen to coalition troops," he said, although "there will be...extremists, terrorists, former sympathisers with Saddam, who will be wanting to kill as many people as possible".

That is true only up to a point. Fallujah, in the heart of the Sunni region most loyal to the Saddam regime, is not representative of the whole country. Out of 25 million Iraqis, 15 million are Shias who have chosen for the moment to tolerate foreign forces, and five million are Kurds who are running their own patch with calm autonomy. But Mr Blair's words do not quite match the Fallujah pictures. The crowd did not look like extremists or foreign terrorists, if only because so many were so young. They looked like residents holding up signs proclaiming their town as the "graveyard of Americans".

If the killings continue after the handover of sovereignty on June 30, it may test the stamina of the US public in a way that this week has not. In Mogadishu, it was not just the images which rattled Americans, it was the sense that there was no exit.

The same could prove true of Iraq, in which case the images of Fallujah will be remembered and revived.

Simon Jenkins, page 28

HOW THE WORLD'S MEDIA REPORTED THE FALLUJAH AMBUSH

America

NBC: edited pictures so that corpses were less visible

CNN: initially only described scenes; later, after a warning, showed glimpses of burned bodies hanging from bridge

FOX: images limited to shots of burning vehicles and joyous crowds

ABC and CBS: showed blurred footage

The Washington Post: graphic coverage of mob beating charred corpses with shoes

The New York Times: showed burnt corpses hanging from bridge

Los Angeles Times: showed hanging bodies inside the paper

Britain

BBC: showed footage of burning vehicles and rioting Iraqis

Channel 4: showed blurred body being dragged through the street, and clear shots of corpses hanging from bridge

Sky News: long, blurred, footage of corpses being dragged through street

Europe

LCI (Paris): showed clear shots of bodies being dragged down the street and hanging from bridge

ZDF (Germany): only described the event, and showed joyous crowds

Middle East

Al-Aribya (Dubai): initially showed burnt corpse being pulled out of burning car and kicked. Later image was blurred

Al-Jazeera (Qatar): showed blurred footage of burnt bodies



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