This is just a follow up to the book release.

23 soldiers. 1 supports him today.

Wow, John Kerry must have really been a "War hero".

<a href='http://kerry-04.org/war/shipmates.php' target='_blank'>Vietnam Veterans speak the truth</a>

Hey, Dogger and Trooper:

Quote:"While in Cam Rahn Bay, he trained on several 24-hour indoctrination missions, and one special skimmer operation with my most senior and trusted Lieutenant. <span style='color:red'>The briefing from some members of that crew the morning after revealed that they had not received any enemy fire, and yet Lt.(jg) Kerry informed me of a wound -- he showed me a scratch on his arm and a piece of shrapnel in his hand that appeared to be from one of our own M-79s. It was later reported to me that Lt.(jg) Kerry had fired an M-79, and it had exploded off the adjacent shoreline. I do not recall being advised of any medical treatment, and probably said something like 'Forget it.' He later received a Purple Heart for that scratch, and I have no information as to how or whom. </span>

"Lt.(jg) Kerry was allowed to return to the good old USA after 4 months and a few days in-country, and then he proceeded to betray his former shipmates, calling them criminals who were committing atrocities. Today we are here to tell you that just the opposite is true. Our rules of engagement were quite strict, and the officers and men of Swift often did not even return fire when they were under fire if there was a possibility that innocent people -- fishermen, in a lot of cases -- might be hurt or injured. The rules and the good intentions of the men increased the possibility that we might take friendly casualties."

-- Commander Grant Hibbard, USN (retired)

So by this account Commander Hibbard can tell a wound came from one of our own M-79's. man did this guy go on to a fabulous career in Crime Scene Investigations.

Dogger Wrote:So by this account Commander Hibbard can tell a wound came from one of our own M-79's. man did this guy go on to a fabulous career in Crime Scene Investigations.

Try reading before replying. That was in an outbriefing, AAR as the Army calls it, and it was stated by ALL on the boat. Kinda hard to fire off an M-79 without others hearing you, if you know what I mean.....nevermind, you don't.

<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>The briefing from some members of that crew the morning after revealed that they had not received any enemy fire, and yet Lt.(jg) Kerry informed me of a wound </span>


Here you go..............

he showed me a scratch on his arm and a piece of shrapnel in his hand that appeared to be from one of our own M-79s. It was later reported to me that Lt.(jg) Kerry[SIZE=1][SIZE=14][SIZE=14]

so when he showed him the scratch he thought it appeared from one of our own, later it was reported to him. What am I missing here????

Damn, you just don't get it. The officer was briefed, "We received no enemy fire" ...and Kerry came in with a wound. Connect the damn dots.


You can't spin this Dogger. It's an impossibility. Steve Gardiner was on the boat when it happened, as well as a few others. You do not receive a Purple Heart from anything other than wounds received from ENEMY FIRE.

Reb Relax-

I'm not trying to spin anything. You've been around along enough to know both sides play dirty tricks. The way I read it I thought he was saying he could tell the wound was from our own gun. ****in A relax.

This kind of stuff just cheapens the debate. You don't know for sure and the other people don't know if Kerry was firing at anybody on the other shore. I'm done with this and I really don't care. If you guys want to cheapen his service in the defense of W I really don't care.

Do you honestly believe that someone that lied (to some doctor) about a wound, received a Purple Heart, adding them up so he could come home in 4.5 months, come back and talk smack about his fellow troops (ie. attrocities, etc.) along with Jane Fonda to the point that an NVA General credited his victory to Kerry and his VVaV, then come back 30 years later, snap a salute, say "I'm reporting for duty", and say he protected the country as if he is Rambo is qualified to run the country?


I didn't use the words earlier this year, or ever actually, but I am going to say it now, he's an effin traitor. I wasn't going to be as harsh on him as I am Jane Fonda, who straddled an NVA Artillery Cannon and passed notes given to her by POW's to an NVA Officer who had the POW's beat, but that's off now.

Dogger Wrote:This kind of stuff just cheapens the debate. You don't know for sure and the other people don't know if Kerry was firing at anybody on the other shore. I'm done with this and I really don't care. If you guys want to cheapen his service in the defense of W I really don't care.

The other guys don't know? Ummm, ok. That's how it always works you know, an officer fights and orders no one to follow suit. Don't be that obtuse.

My dad served in the Air Force during Nam. He lost a lot of friends. I know it was a very painful time for him and our country. I really believe no one wins when we bring this stuff up. Dad always said if somone served over there they had the right to say anything they want. He really didn't care for the people who protested who didn't serve over there though.

Dogger Wrote:Dad always said if somone served over there they had the right to say anything they want.

even if it was a lie?

*note* not saying Kerry is or is not lieing.

The Knight Time Wrote:This is just a follow up to the book release.

23 soldiers.&nbsp; 1 supports him today.

How do you figure?

The Web site looks like a fraud.

It claims these guys are Kerry's "shipmates," but very few of them sound like they knew him very well in Nam.

As the mainstream media continues to make clear, many of the men who actually served under Kerry -- and, presumably, who know him best -- support him to this day:

<a href='http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/040809/usnews/9convention.b1.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/040809/...nvention.b1.htm</a>

Second of all, the Web site features an invitation to "Join the Jihad."

I can't think of anything in more horrible taste. Are they really suggesting that the effort to defeat Kerry should be compared to the holy terror of mad men like Osama bin Laden?

Schadenfreude Wrote:

The Knight Time Wrote:This is just a follow up to the book release.

23 soldiers.  1 supports him today.

How do you figure?

The Web site looks like a fraud.

It claims these guys are Kerry's "shipmates," but very few of them sound like they knew him very well in Nam.

As the mainstream media continues to make clear, many of the men who actually served under Kerry -- and, presumably, who know him best -- support him to this day:

<a href='http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/040809/usnews/9convention.b1.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/040809/...nvention.b1.htm</a>

Second of all, the Web site features an invitation to "Join the Jihad."

I can't think of anything in more horrible taste. Are they really suggesting that the effort to defeat Kerry should be compared to the holy terror of mad men like Osama bin Laden?

Oh, so now the mainstream media is the end all of truth?

There is a book coming out written directly by these exact same men.

The name of the book is called "Unfit for Command" and they lay out the exact same accusations.

But, since you know it all, you can refute their claims. Afterall, they weren't the ones in combat overseas, you were right?

Reb, we just don't get it. Dogg and Schaud were THERE. They know waht they are talking about more than the 22 (yes, 22) men that detest John Kerry for his lies during combat.

The book release will be followed by a 300 man Vietnam Veteran tour group.

Feel free to try and discredit them all too.

General William Turnipseed and Lt. Col. Kenneth Lott, who commanded the Montgomery, Alabama, base at the time said that Bush never appeared. "To my knowledge, he never showed up," Turnipseed said.

DESERTER!

You, I or 99.99% of the rest of the population would still be in jail now for desertion and we have a cowardly deserter for Commander in Chief.

Kerry was there. He might have showboated some to further his career but he was there, in Viet Nam, in combat. He was there.

Facts is Facts

The Knight Time Wrote:Oh, so now the mainstream media is the end all of truth?

I'm using the term broadly.

<a href='http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,127090,00.html' target='_blank'>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,127090,00.html</a>

Quote: 22 (yes, 22) men that detest John Kerry for his lies during combat.

There you go again.

If you look at the site, most of the guys are pissed off at Kerry for one reason: They don't like the fact that protested the war once he came home.

"Lies during combat?"

That's despicable. The record shows Kerry served bravely and with honor -- which is a hell of a lot more than we can say for the current president.

If you want to keep company with people who invite the world to "join the jihad," it's a free country.

But I think its disgusting.

What I can't stand about this argument is if you give Kerry the BENEFIT of the doubt your a know it all. Yet, the lies that the right spew out there in the past have been so far out there you can't help it. I look back and see the way they tried to paint Clinton as a murderer of Vince Foster. These guys will try and do anything to keep in power. Including tarnishing a brave man who fought and served his country. In a wierd sort of way though we should be happy that they do go this cheap route because it directs attention to that time period and people will undoubtedly compare how Kerry served and how W served(if you can call that service). Checkmate Kerry.

He lied after he came home - accusing EVERY SOLDIER of committing atrocities....again, basically to blunt the impact of his own admitted atrocities.

The guy is scum, and you can't spin it away. Get over yourself.

Hezbollah offered to market the Moore movie, and the Cuban Govt. aired it on national TV. I don't see you distancing yourself from that piece of tripe.
Hypocrite.

BearcatCarl Wrote:He lied after he came home - accusing EVERY SOLDIER of committing atrocities....again, basically to blunt the impact of his own admitted atrocities.

The guy is scum, and you can't spin it away. Get over yourself.

Hezbollah offered to market the Moore movie, and the Cuban Govt. aired it on national TV. I don't see you distancing yourself from that piece of tripe.
Hypocrite.

So now we know why Bush is wanting to attack Cuba's whores.......... :laugh: