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Swift Boat Vets have an Anti-Kerry ad
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Schadenfreude Online
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Post: #61
 
Dogger Wrote:THIS IS JUST MORE PROOF on how the right will go to any length any any level to try and win an election. It's disgraceful.
Dirty politics is not a right/left issue. It depends on the individuals. It depends on the race. This kind of stuff only emerges in close races.

I would say this, however: Bush has a well-documented history of playing dirty, and no one knows better than John McCain.

I mentioned the push poll during the 2000 South Carolina primary. McCain had tremendous momentum. If McCain won South Carolina, he was going to run away with the nomination.

So people hired by the Bush team called up potential voters. If they were leaning toward Bush, that was the end of the call. But if they were leaning for McCain, the "pollsters" asked: "Would you more or less likely to vote for McCain him if you knew he was a liar, a cheat, and a fraud and that he fathered an illegitimate child out of wedlock?"

This was a reference to McCain's daughter, Bridget, who was adopted from Mother Theresa's Bangledesh orphange.

The Bush team was so obsessed with the idea of winning the presidency that they twisted around McCain's act of act of kindness in a way to play on the racial fears of South Carolina Republicans.

It's hard to top that story. If it wasn't for Bush's race baiting in South Carolina, he might not be president today.

But there was plenty of other stuff. Bush supporters:

-- distributed leaflets describing McCain as "proabortion" and "the fag candidate" (because he was the only Republican candidate to meet with the Log Cabin Republicans).
-- distributed leaflets cutting down McCain's wife for stealing drugs from a charity she directed and using them while mothering four children. (There is truth to this; Cindy had a long battle with an addition to prescription pain killers).

It's tough to document it all. Here is another look:

<a href='http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/time/2000/02/21/knuckles.html' target='_blank'>http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/time/2000/0...1/knuckles.html</a>
08-07-2004 08:47 AM
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Bob Saccomano Offline
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Post: #62
 
Dogger Wrote:THIS IS JUST MORE PROOF on how the right will go to any length any any level to try and win an election. It's disgraceful.
You guys (MU ATO especially) are living in a dream world.

In your world, socialists like Michael Moore makes movies that "actually make some valid points" despite the overwhelming proof of a landfill of lies.
In your world, it's OK for billionaires like George Soros to fund a 527 hit squad, but as soon as YOUR candidate gets the same treatment, it's "dirty Republican politics".
In your world, it's more than OK for the President to be called everything from a warmonger to Hitler, but God forbid anyone question your precious war hero;
and speaking of which...it's OK for 80% of your party to protest the Vietnam war and call our soldiers "baby killers" - but when the war props up your pathetic excuse of a Presidential candidate, it's then OK to embrace his "heroism".
It's also OK for that candidate to say that every soldier committed atrocities, but it's not OK for those same soldiers to defend themselves against lies.

And folks, that's just the tip of the mountain in a little town we like to call Liberal Fantasy Land.

It's basically gotten to the point where you sad sacks are SO blinded by your pathetic, failed ideology that you can't even see the center anymore. I was willing to give your miserable weasel of a candidate the benefit of the doubt. No longer. I will not try to be reasonable while people spout out such gems as "Moore's movie makes good points" and "the President looked scared on 9/11", while rejecting out of hand any evidence to the contrary.

Your candidate has said the IF HE HAD BEEN PRESIDENT, he would've reacted differently than GW Bush. An easy assertion to make...and a cowardly one, since his statement could never be proven. But he was a Senator at the time, and in Washington D.C. Why then, would a decorated war hero and member of our Government sit FROZEN IN PLACE, UNABLE TO THINK (by his OWN admission) FOR FORTY-FIVE FREAKIN MINUTES after the 2nd plane flew into the WTC?

Applying Fatty's warped logic to Kerry, shouldn't he have realized what was going on, and run to the Pentagon and tried to evacuate? Couldn't he, as a war hero (his only Defense credentials, right?) have done SOMETHING to prevent the Pentagon from being hit?

But with the title of PRESIDENT, he would've done things differently...probably had a Mekong Delta flashback and jumped into a Swift Boat.

Yeah, right. :chair:
08-07-2004 08:58 AM
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Ninerfan1 Offline
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Post: #63
 
Schadenfreude Wrote:There is a perception that Kerry is attacking, when he isn't. That's the white noise of the Moveon ads -- which, frankly, by and large, haven't been as vicious as the Swift Boat ad.
Yeah, those ads comparing Bush to Hitler were really civil and no where near as mean as a group of VETERANS questioning Kerry's war record. :rolleyes:

Geez, you really do live in your own little world.

And FYI, I've stated I'm reserving judgement until all the facts are known. I've never once said I thought we'd "win" with anything to do with this ad.

Keep up they myth though, I know it's all you have.

Hypocrit.
08-07-2004 09:14 AM
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Schadenfreude Online
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Post: #64
 
BearcatCarl Wrote:In your world, socialists like Michael Moore makes movies that "actually make some valid points" despite the overwhelming proof of a landfill of lies.
It is not a landfill of lies.

The right is taking a couple of (admittedly embarassing) missteps and turning them into an indictment of the movie.

The movie is uneven. I don't care for all of it.

But it raises important issues. And some of its most powerful moments are entirely above reproach.

Quote:In your world, it's OK for billionaires like George Soros to fund a 527 hit squad, but as soon as YOUR candidate gets the same treatment, it's "dirty Republican politics".

Admittedly, I'm partisan.

But in my mind, the character of the Swift Boat ads are unlike anything Soros has funded. They are an attempt to tear down a veteran who volunteered to put his life on the line for his country on behalf of a man who chickened out and went missin'.

I can't think of a Moveon ad or anything else that compares.

Quote:Why then, would a decorated war hero and member of our Government sit FROZEN IN PLACE, UNABLE TO THINK (by his OWN admission) FOR FORTY-FIVE FREAKIN MINUTES after the 2nd plane flew into the WTC

Because he wasn't president, and no one was looking to him for leadership at the time?

Quote:But with the title of PRESIDENT, he would've done things differently...probably had a Mekong Delta flashback and jumped into a Swift Boat.

There you guys go again, denigrating people who actually served in Vietnam.

"Flashbacks?"

Come on. You can do better.
08-07-2004 09:18 AM
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Schadenfreude Online
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Post: #65
 
Ninerfan1 Wrote:Yeah, those ads comparing Bush to Hitler were really civil and no where near as mean as a group of VETERANS questioning Kerry's war record. :rolleyes:
Tell me more about these "ads."

Were they ever on TV?
08-07-2004 09:25 AM
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Ninerfan1 Offline
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Post: #66
 
Schadenfreude Wrote:Tell me more about these "ads."

Were they ever on TV?
The ads were part of a contest they ran called "Bush in 30 Seconds." Moveon posted them on their website and didn't remove them until after they were exposed by the media.

No they weren't on TV, but they had no problem leaving them on their website until they were called down on it.

However I'm sure you know this. You probably have the two ads saved on your PC so you can view them throughout the day to get your jollies.
08-07-2004 09:35 AM
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Ninerfan1 Offline
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Post: #67
 
Schadenfreude Wrote:I still think The Globe got it right, for the reasons I've explained.

They continue to stand by their story:
Apparently they didn't get it right.

Quote:Veteran disputes newspaper report of recanted Kerry charges
Boston Globe stands by story
Friday, August 6, 2004 Posted: 6:33 PM EDT (2233 GMT)

BOSTON, Massachusetts (Reuters) -- One of presidential candidate John Kerry's Vietnam war comrades, who had appeared to back off his criticism of Kerry's war record, recanted Friday and said, yes, in fact he did question whether the U.S. senator deserved his medals.

Last week at his nominating convention, Kerry painted himself as a decorated war hero capable of leading the nation in troubled times and a man better qualified to be commander-in-chief than President Bush.

That portrayal of his time as commander of a Navy Swift Boat sparked a heated exchange this week between those who support him and those who question that image.

This week a group calling itself the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth launched a television spot accusing the Democratic candidate of betraying his country by speaking out against the war when he returned home.

On Friday, a member of that group who was one of Kerry's supervisors in Vietnam, George Elliott, appeared to back off an earlier affidavit in which he suggested Kerry did not deserve the Silver Star. In the affidavit, he said, "I was never informed that he had simply shot a wounded, fleeing Viet Cong in the back."

In Friday's Boston Globe, Elliott was quoted as saying: "It was a terrible mistake probably for me to sign the affidavit with those words. I'm the one in trouble here."

Elliott told the Globe Kerry did deserve the medal.

Playing golf
Inundated with calls to verify the statement, Elliott grew media shy and said through his wife he would not talk. Earlier in the day, Mrs. Elliott said her husband was playing golf and would call back when he returned in the afternoon.

Elliott later issued another affidavit -- witnessed and notarized -- this time saying he was misquoted by the Globe and reaffirming his belief that Kerry has "not been honest about what happened in Vietnam."

Elliott also wrote: "Had I known the facts, I would not have recommended Kerry for the Silver Star for simply pursuing and dispatching a single wounded, fleeing Viet Cong."

Martin Baron, editor of The Boston Globe, said in a statement: "Regarding George Elliott's statements on John Kerry's military service, which ran in the Globe this morning, the Globe stands by the article. The quotes attributed to Mr. Elliott were on the record and absolutely accurate."

Next week the group will step up its campaign against the candidate with a book, "Unfit for Command: Swift Boat Veterans Speak Out Against John Kerry."

Veterans supporting Kerry called the ad a "smear campaign" and two whose lives were saved by Kerry hit back.

"What these people have said is not true and a lot of it is grossly inaccurate," said James Rassmann, who has appeared at many campaign appearances with the candidate.

"These gentlemen appear to be making this up as they go along and they are not keeping their stories straight," he said.

Fred Short, who also served with Kerry, said the ad shows "The Bush campaign has nothing to talk about, so they resort to these dirty tricks."

Meanwhile Republican Sen. John McCain, another Vietnam veteran, called the attack dishonorable and dishonest.

The Bush administration distanced itself from the advertisement Thursday but did not condemn it. "We have not and we will not question Sen. Kerry's service in Vietnam," said White House spokesman Scott McClellan.

Let's see, liberal hometown paper stands by statements that contradict the person who ACTUALLY said them? Hmmmm, yeah, I think I'll side with the guy who actually made the statements.

You liberal sheep keeping towing the party line though. Lord knows you shouldn't dare think for yourselves.
:rolleyes:
08-07-2004 09:50 AM
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Socko Wiethe Offline
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Post: #68
 
Talk about showing your true hateful colors, Niner, you're putting them on full display.

This old guy apparently doesn't know what he thinks, but lock him up in a room with these strong-arm types pushing this campaign yesterday, and he'll bend back in their direction. That's pathetic enough. Bet he won't be doing any more interviews, or at least not without the Swift Boat mafia at his side.

Beyond pathetic is standing up for this kind of smear campaign. It's what it is, it's been well-planned and its two chief financiers are both Texans who have been in the Bush camp (both father and son) for years and years. For the Bush campaign to try and wash their hands of this once again shows just how little regard they have for the common sense of the American people.

Welcome to the limbo election -- you win by seeing how low you can go.
08-07-2004 11:08 AM
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Post: #69
 
Socko Wiethe Wrote:Talk about showing your true hateful colors, Niner, you're putting them on full display.
Me? You've got your boy MU calling people *********** and I'M hateful?

Nice selective outrage their Socko. Of course selective outrage and double standards are the life blood of the liberals around here.

BTW, still have yet to have one liberal condemn Garafolo for calling an african american reporter a "house negro". But of course, in your mind, THAT'S not hateful at all is it? :rolleyes:
08-07-2004 11:18 AM
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Socko Wiethe Offline
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Post: #70
 
Ninerfan1 Wrote:
Socko Wiethe Wrote:Talk about showing your true hateful colors, Niner, you're putting them on full display.
Me? You've got your boy MU calling people *********** and I'M hateful?

Nice selective outrage their Socko. Of course selective outrage and double standards are the life blood of the liberals around here.

BTW, still have yet to have one liberal condemn Garafolo for calling an african american reporter a "house negro". But of course, in your mind, THAT'S not hateful at all is it? :rolleyes:
If she said it, I condemn Garafolo. (Of course, she said it on partisan talk radio, and does that really count for anyone on either side? You lose your job if you don't outrage.)

Earlier in this thread, I came out against negative campaigning and said it was bad for the country. I meant it. Hate speech is a part of that.

There are issues out there that need to be talked about. The war/national security and the economy are at the head of that list. If those aren't the issues that frame this election, then we'll get the result we as a nation deserve.
08-07-2004 12:31 PM
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gruehls
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hey socko, just curious: did you ever meet your namesake?
08-07-2004 12:49 PM
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Post: #72
 
Socko Wiethe Wrote:This old guy apparently doesn't know what he thinks, but lock him up in a room with these strong-arm types pushing this campaign yesterday, and he'll bend back in their direction. That's pathetic enough. Bet he won't be doing any more interviews, or at least not without the Swift Boat mafia at his side.
I'll tell you what happens when a newspaper screws up. The person pissed about the error calls the newspaper -- the reporter, and editor, the person who answers the phone, whoever -- and starts bitching.

Yet, nobody in the media has been able to get hold of this guy George Ellioitt who was supposedly misquoted. He is clearly avoiding the media.

It is telling, I think, that the only challenge to the Globe story came out of Swift Boaters Who Hate Kerry headquarters in the form of an *affiadavit*.

(And what is it with these guys that they keep dealing in affiadavits? It tells me they are on tricky legal ground, and they know it).

I think the Swift Boaters To Discredit Kerry threatened to sue Elliott yesterday morning.

I'm no lawyer, but they may have a case. A lot of their book hinges on this guy, and if he undercuts it by waffling -- they might have a tort.

Here is the original story:

<a href='http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/08/06/veteran_retracts_criticism_of_kerry/' target='_blank'>http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles...icism_of_kerry/</a>

And if you look at today's Globe story:

<a href='http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2004/08/07/veteran_claims_misquote_on_kerry_globe_stands_by_its_story/' target='_blank'>http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washingt...s_by_its_story/</a>

You'll see this nugget:

In 1996, when Kerry was running for Senate reelection and faced questions about the circumstances in which he shot the Viet Cong fighter, Elliott came to Boston and defended Kerry, saying he deserved the Silver Star.

I don't think the Globe screwed up at all. I really don't.

Quote:Beyond pathetic is standing up for this kind of smear campaign. It's what it is, it's been well-planned and its two chief financiers are both Texans who have been in the Bush camp (both father and son) for years and years. For the Bush campaign to try and wash their hands of this once again shows just how little regard they have for the common sense of the American people.

This attack isn't going to work. People really do have common sense, and they will become more familiar with Bush's own Vietnam record as this campaign rolls along.

This attack is not only disgraceful. It's stupid.
08-07-2004 12:59 PM
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Schadenfreude Online
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Ninerfan1 Wrote:Me? You've got your boy MU calling people *********** and I'M hateful?
Using somebody's else's words in an attempt to discredit Socko is pretty lame.
08-07-2004 01:00 PM
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Ninerfan1 Wrote:The ads were part of a contest they ran called "Bush in 30 Seconds."&nbsp; Moveon posted them on their website and didn't remove them until after they were exposed by the media.

No they weren't on TV, but they had no problem leaving them on their website until they were called down on it.
In other words, this was one entry in a contest that Moveon happened to put on a Web site, and you want to spin that into some kind of broadbased Democratic attack against Bush?

That's weak.

Quote:However I'm sure you know this.  You probably have the two ads saved on your PC so you can view them throughout the day to get your jollies.

No. I've been hearing noise about some Hitler ad for a while, and I didn't know the details.

I see Bush partisans has jumped all over it and are now waving the bloody shirt.

That's weak.
08-07-2004 01:04 PM
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The Knight Time Offline
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Post: #75
 
Schadenfreude Wrote:
Ninerfan1 Wrote:The ads were part of a contest they ran called "Bush in 30 Seconds."  Moveon posted them on their website and didn't remove them until after they were exposed by the media.

No they weren't on TV, but they had no problem leaving them on their website until they were called down on it.
In other words, this was one entry in a contest that Moveon happened to put on a Web site, and you want to spin that into some kind of broadbased Democratic attack against Bush?

That's weak.

Quote:However I'm sure you know this.  You probably have the two ads saved on your PC so you can view them throughout the day to get your jollies.

No. I've been hearing noise about some Hitler ad for a while, and I didn't know the details.

I see Bush partisans has jumped all over it and are now waving the bloody shirt.

That's weak.
The only thing weak here is you and your liberal breathen response to this ad.

It was put on by a private group to attack what THEY feel is a fallacy of a Presidential candidate, one who needs to be exposed.

None of us were in Vietnam- so these men's stories can either be true or not. I do find it funny that you're giving the ultimate benefit of the doubt to your boy Kerry, since he is such an honorable man, right?

We've all seen how crooked politicans can be. Why would that not apply to Mr. Kerry? What would compel hundreds of Veterans to speak out against John Kerry???

The best argument you can make is "Well, they weren't on the same boat". Attack squads always operate in conjoined divisions- in other wards- your argument that these men were always 200 yards away is void.

I just love the hypocricy running through the democratic followers. When Michael Moore releases a movie that has been discredited over and over- they yell "Truth!!! Great movie!! Moore is a true patriot!!"

But, when men with credibility, and men who served our country for years and years speak out against John Kerry, they yell "Dirty trick!!! A scam!! Republicans are out to get us!!!"

Yea, like I said.....HYPOCRITES
08-07-2004 01:30 PM
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Yes guys, it is hypocrisy. You guys are basically bashing many, many Vietnam Vets, but are only concerned with one.....the one running for President. Here's the deal, I have seen this officer's account of being pulled out. He basically stated that he only came up for air as boats were passing over. Hell, he really didn't know WHAT was going on. However, Kerry did pull him out of water, but guys, unless this dude couldn't swim, unlikely in the Navy, what did Kerry save him from? Regardless, Kerry pulled him out. That's not what I disagree with. It's his "hero status". Remember this while bashing conservatives who bash Kerry because he's a Vietnam Vet......so are the rest.
08-07-2004 02:30 PM
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gruehls Wrote:hey socko, just curious: did you ever meet your namesake?
Gruehls --

No, I never did. But actually you're the first UC poster to even pick up on the significance of the pseudonym.

Given what he meant to the program, that's pretty disappointing.
08-07-2004 03:26 PM
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Bob Saccomano Offline
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Post: #78
 
Here's how honorable John Kerry is:

When he goes to speak at an automotive summit, he brags about all his big, American cars (Chevy Suburbans, etc.).

Then at an environmental summit, he says he's gotten rid of his "gas gusslers" and gone to smaller fuel efficient cars.
When someone asks him what happened to his cache of Suburbans, he says "I don't own them. My family does."

Then he tells everyone the Kerrys and Edwards are on the waiting list for hybrid cars.

Another in the line of SAY ANYTHING Democrats more interesting in pandering to niche audiences for votes than be truthful about who they are.
The convention proves it...and all of you know it.

Schad,

I'm sure you're an intelligent person on other matters, but when it comes to politics you've clearly been blinded by ideology.
I had a 15 minute discussion with my wife and mother this morning about things I DON'T like about George W. Bush. Do libs ever do that? I doubt it.
It's called being intellectually honest...something any former liberal turned conservative (guys like David Horowitz) can tell you DOESN'T EXIST in the liberal world.

You continually spin the Moore movie as a great purveyor of truth, only slightly offset by a few "regrettable mistakes":
1. Moore's mistakes aren't "regrettable". They're "intentional".
2. Any reasonable person with half a synapse firing in their skull has torn the Moore movie to shreds point by point. There isn't a shred of fact in the damned thing.

Finally, you say John Kerry SHOULD be judged for his conduct in Vietnam 30 years ago, while rejecting out of hand anyone who dispute the "war hero" persona.
You then say John Kerry SHOULDN'T be judged for his conduct 3 years ago on 9/11, because he wasn't President and therefore not responsible or obligated to.

Do you NOT see the contradiction here?

Like I said, I'm sure you're an intelligent person under normal circumstances. In this forum, however, you're JUST ANOTHER LIBERAL...blind to everyone and everything that doesn't fit into your narrow minded funnel of truth.

How sad. It might've been fun to talk about real issues. Unfortunately, the Moores and Soroses of the world have buryed this election under a steaming, stinking pile of lies. Trying to blame Republicans for it doesn't make it the truth, and THAT'S what people will remember as the election draws close.
08-07-2004 03:29 PM
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gruehls
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[QUOTE=Socko Wiethe,Aug 7 2004, 03:26 PM
Gruehls --

No, I never did. But actually you're the first UC poster to even pick up on the significance of the pseudonym.

Given what he meant to the program, that's pretty disappointing.[/QUOTE]

last post on this socko, though i'd be happy to pick it up on the UC board: i met socko. he coached my dad at UC, and they remained good friends until socko's death. i didn't meet him though until he was acting in his political capacity as head of the local democratic party.
08-07-2004 04:18 PM
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Quote:It's called being intellectually honest...something any former liberal turned conservative (guys like David Horowitz) can tell you DOESN'T EXIST in the liberal world.

Horowitz wouldn't recognize intellectual honesty if it ran him over with an 18-wheeler.

Quote:You continually spin the Moore movie as a great purveyor of truth, only slightly offset by a few "regrettable mistakes":

I think I've posted once about the movie since the week of its release.

I didn't say "great purveyor of truth" and I didn't say "regretable mistakes"

Quote:1. Moore's mistakes aren't "regrettable". They're "intentional".

Again, I didn't say "regretable."

I said "admittedly embarassing."

Quote:2. Any reasonable person with half a synapse firing in their skull has torn the Moore movie to shreds point by point. There isn't a shred of fact in the damned thing.

Have you seen the movie?

Quote:Finally, you say John Kerry SHOULD be judged for his conduct in Vietnam 30 years ago, while rejecting out of hand anyone who dispute the "war hero" persona.

I do reject it out of hand. Because the attack completely misses the forest for the trees.

These meatheads are nitpicking over whether Kerry was injured *enough* in service to his country and other such bullpucky.

None of it changes the fact that John Kerry *volunteered* to go to Vietnam and put his life on the line for his country.

It is, in other words, a terribly cheap shot.

It is difficult for me to comprehend the blind rage that would prompt these guys to launch such a cheap, meanspirited tawdry attack against a man who -- just like them -- put his life on the line for his country.

They obviously resent him for coming home and speaking out against the war.

I just don't understand it.

Read this, if you like. This is John Kerry testifying before the Senate:

<a href='http://lists.village.virginia.edu/sixties/HTML_docs/Resources/Primary/Manifestos/VVAW_Kerry_Senate.html' target='_blank'>http://lists.village.virginia.edu/sixties/...rry_Senate.html</a>

You can nitpick a couple words.

But I don't understand the rage.

Terrible things happened over there. The war was a mistake.

I'd like to think most Americans recognize that now.

Quote:You then say John Kerry SHOULDN'T be judged for his conduct 3 years ago on 9/11, because he wasn't President and therefore not responsible or obligated to.

What should John Kerry have done?

Quote:Do you NOT see the contradiction here?

Quote:How sad. It might've been fun to talk about real issues. Unfortunately, the Moores and Soroses of the world have buryed this election under a steaming, stinking pile of lies. 

What lies?

Quote:Trying to blame Republicans for it doesn't make it the truth, and THAT'S what people will remember as the election draws close.

Last poll I saw has Americans seeing both Kerry and Edwards as more optimistic than their counterparts in the White House.

That's not precisely on point, I admit.
08-07-2004 05:24 PM
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