axeme,
The Flashes have 2 winning seasons over the past 25 years. I do not understand why you desire Kent to participate in a conference that it obviously can not compete in and whose administration has failed to make a commitment to bring KSU up to the same level as fellow conference members.

rockytop,
Yes, performance on the field does change over time. That is why you continually see conferences adding/dropping members and having new conferences being formed...which is precisely what I've proposed.

Bottom line is we either accept the status quo and quit bichin' about lack of opportunities and respect OR follow the lead of other conferences and make tough membership decisions that is in the best interest of the majority of the teams in the conference.

4575 Wrote:Remember, fortunes change. Buffalo will be a star in the MAC some day; they just ain't shining too brightly now. For example, even with UB's trouble in football, and unfortunately most athletics right now, would you honestly want to replace them with the likes of East Carolina? Yuk. East Carolina has nothing on Buffalo except a better football team. I'd prefer not to sell out the MAC for the opportunity to import schools with good football teams but questionable acedemics and character.

Buffalo will improve. Eastern Michigan will improve. Marshall will fall on hard times. NIU will lose a lot of games again....... At that time, would you be willing to trade Marshall for East Carolina? Or NIU for USF? Stay the course and all will work out.

What is so glaringly absent from this board is the realization that the MAC is not just a football conference.

It's an all-sport conference.

And the Kent's and EMU's and CMU's and UB's ADD to the all-sport aspect of the MAC. They are important now, and will be more important in the future. They are more important than a quick add of ECU or USF for football. Keep all the MAC 1-A the way it is.

But we could all try to encourge Illinois State to beef up it athletics and join the MAC as an all sport member. NIU needs a local rival, and I doubt UCF will stay all that long with football in the MAC and all sports in whatever conference they are in....... But no need to kick a dead horse

Nice post. You make some very good points.

fatmanjim Wrote:I do not understand why you desire Kent to participate in a conference that it obviously can not compete in

Get F'ing real. Check out KSU's number of Jacoby and Resse Cups. Yes, KSU football sucks, but to kick us out of the MAC or have Kent leave on it's own is insane. KSU has a deep historical ties to the MAC as an ALL SPORTS CONFRENCE and it's other schools. Every Conference is going to have it's consistant bottom feeders in any particular sport, and if you kick out Kent, someone else is just going to take your place. KSU is a sleeping giant in MAC football with it's recuirting base and size of the school. It's not going to happne anytime soon, but by pure chance the right pepole well be here eventually. Kent is out of the MAC, the MAC losses a potentailly great fan base in NE Ohio and it's premier overall athletics department.

fatmanjim Wrote:Bottom line is we either accept the status quo and quit bichin' about lack of opportunities and respect OR follow the lead of other conferences and make tough membership decisions that is in the best interest of the majority of the teams in the conference.

What other conferences are making these "tough decisions"? If the Big East and Temple is all you've got, then your argument isn't very strong. That's the only team weeded out of a conference that I can think of in the relatively recent past.

And about the "best interest of the majority of the teams in the conference". Is that the majority of teams this year? Or the majority of teams over the last 3 years? But what about 5 years from now, when so-called bottom feeders are strong?

Remember this, NIU was 0-11, 23 game losing streak, worst team in the country, an embarassment to many in the league I'm sure. And that was 5 years ago. Success comes and goes. That's the nature of competition. But 5 years ago, by the argument made by those who want to make cuts, NIU would have been dropped like a fat girlfriend.

And, why only think about football? Other than the fact that football is the sport where most of us have the most interest, I mean. Up until recently, men's basketball is where the MAC had made it's mark. And who was it that was advancing deep into the NCAA tournament? Kent State, that's right. But that doesn't matter I guess.

I won't even start on the hundreds of athletes in other sports who compete in this conference, with the financial benefit of lower travel costs than would be incurred from a more far-flung league.

So yes, I accept the status quo because Marshall, NIU, Toledo and BG won't be on top in football forever, but Ball State, Ohio and Akron will have their time in the sun. And while Marshall might have a fine football team, their basketball team can't compare to Kent State.

Another thing, why is no one trying to kick Duke out of the ACC, yet some many pepole here jump on the bandwagon to kick out Kent St? Football is a big thing, but this board is too football-centric it obscures good reason.

4575 Wrote:Buffalo will improve. Eastern Michigan will improve. Marshall will fall on hard times. NIU will lose a lot of games again.......

I doubt this one too.

Twenty years ago, MAC schools were all very even in competition and it wasn't inconceivable that a Kent st or an Eastern Michigan could make a run at the MAC Championship once in a while.

These days, the top of the MAC has the facilities, fan base and the reputation to consistantly maintain power. Marshall, Toledo, and Miami are good EVERY year. NIU is developing into that kind of a program, so has BG of late. In Pro Sports teams can turn upside down, but it college the powers stay at the top. You are never going to see this Football leauge with EMU, Kent, Buffalo at the top and Marshall, Toledo, Miami at the bottom. In basketball, its already happened over the last few years, but in football........not likely.

FMJ -

The Flashes have the top overall athletic program in the MAC. That says commitment to me.

I for one am not bitchin about no opportunity, because NIU for one has never been at this level. NEVER. This is our opportunity! The view is nice from the top, but some day we'll fall off, just like Marshall and Toledo and Miami will. Make no bones about it.

When Marshall falls, at that time, will you fight for or against Marshall staying in the MAC? How loud will you yell to stay in a conference that you helped improve, just like Kent has benefited the overall MAC? How will you respond to others that say that Marshall can't cut it anymore? And if you say "Marshall has had a bad football team for years, lets go 1-AA", then I am calling your BS right now. Think back to how bad your team was 15-20 years ago, hell I can tell you how bad NIU was in the mid-90's. Now add that to the success that Marshall, NIU and others had last weekend - none of it would of happened had the MAC said "Your football team isn't really good - no MAC for you."

The MAC gets a lot of residuals benefits when Kent makes it to the Elite 8, or EMU places high in the NCAA Cross Country Championships, or Buffalo's Chemistry Department develops some new something or other. More examples are available should you need them. You get those benefits because the MAC is an all-sport conference, a collection of good, honest schools, not just a football conference. You get those benefits from the MAC as it is now, not as some collection of football schools invited to participate based on recent win-loss records..........

DogTracks Wrote:And while Marshall might have a fine football team, their basketball team can't compare to Kent State.

Are you kidding me? Marshall draws better than KentSt in basketball despite all their success. Marshall has a better basketball facility. Kent has been hot of lately, but much like Eastern Michigan they'll fall back to the pack in basketball. Marshall's a sleeping Giant in basketball that just needs the right coach. The Herd used to average 8,000 a game in basketball. Kent will never come close.

It is so short-sighted to talk of eliminating teams. Think how the league has come along: No bowl bids. One bowl bid. Two bowl bids. One nationally perceived good team (in a given year), then two, three, now FIVE nationally perceived solid squads. That's called progress, my friends.
Yes, we have dead weight. Name a league that does not. In a 14-team league, you are bound to have more dead weight than in other leagues. With more time, the difference between the best and worst in the league should decrease.

It was not long ago people were ready to throw out BG and NIU. A couple more bad years and I'm sure Western will be tossed on the fire.

It was not long ago some Marshall person posted "Let me out of this godforsaken conference".

My opinion: Have patience. Believe things will continue to approve. Don't wish for the MAC to become Conference USA.

But none of the above applies to Buffalo. Dump now, please.

KC -

You doubt that the mighty can fall?

I have the worst feeling that if and when Joe Novak leaves NIU, whether to retire or onto greener pastures, NIU's House of Football Cards may come crashing to the ground. You have no idea how hard he worked to get this program where it is - and that in all reality NIU is honestly the red-headed stepchild of Mid-Western (read Wisconsin/Illinois, maybe even Iowa and Indiana) football. A couple bad seasons after Joe leaves, and I'd wager a lot of cash that NIU returns to mediocracy. Students go home on weekends instead of to the game, donations fall off.

Man it hurt to type that..........

No one is safe, and I only have NIU as an example. Insert problem here for Marshall, new coach for Toledo here, and something like more budget cuts at Miami, and the field is ripe for new leaders.

DogTracks,
In the past 20 years, nearly every current conference has undergone significant membership changes....The ACC just added VT/Miami, the BigEast is dropping Temple and adding UConn and possibly others, the BigXII is a combination of the old SWC and Big8, the BigTen added PennSt, the MWC split from the WAC, who has since added members, the SBC is a newly formed conference of formerly seperate members, the MAC has added members...need I go on? Membership changes and conference affiliations have always changed in the past, they are currently going through major changes and they will continue to change well into the future. It is not as uncommon as you suggest.

FunkmasterFlash,
The ACC hasn't kicked out Duke, but then again the ACC doesn't have the % of dead weight as the MAC, so really the comparison isn't valid. If Kent were perennially the only lousy program, their effect on the conferences standing would be minimal. When you have a third of the conference fielding lousy teams each year, it has a larger impact and demands action. The Flashes have the best non-football athletic programs in the conference...a very noteworthy and commendable achievement...they bring nothing in football and haven't for 25 years. It is my opinion that college athletics is driven by football. Football is indeed king, and thus IMO athletic decisions should be based upon what is best for football first and everything else second. Thus Kent's achievements in other sports are nice, but should not be a driving force in athletic decision making for this conference.

4575,
I will never fight for Marshall to be included in a conference in which they can not compete. You may have noticed that Marshall went through a 19 year period of ineptness, in which they received zero offers from division I-A conferences for membership. They made a commitment to their programs and slowly improved over time. It is my belief that if Marshall were in the MAC in those down years, we very well could still be down today. It was being able to compete on a lower level against comparable competition that brought success to our program and allowed it to grow. If Kent were to drop to I-AA, put together a few winning seasons and compete annually in the I-AA playoffs, I feel it would help their program grow at a faster rate than remaining in the MAC and getting creamed each year. That philosophy hasn't worked for them the past 25 years and there is no reason it will suddenly start working today or tomorrow.

4575 Wrote:You doubt that the mighty can fall?

I do. The reason NIU is good in the first place is because of the recruiting advantage it has being the only MAC school in the Illinios/Wisconsin region. To be sure, Joe Novak got things rolling, but I would bet the program stays in the upper half of the league when he's done.

Western has dropped a little bit, but they've dropped from the top to the middle of the pack. Attendance and support are still there. Same with BallSt, CMU, Ohio. NIU might drop to a medicore 5 win MAC team,but I highly doubt they'd sink to Buffalo levels again. Too many recruiting advantages.

I can't believe I was dumb enough to read this entire thread worth of utter nonsense.

Pardon me while I go off to feel shame.

fatmanjim Wrote:axeme,
The Flashes have 2 winning seasons over the past 25 years. I do not understand why you desire Kent to participate in a conference that it obviously can not compete in and whose administration has failed to make a commitment to bring KSU up to the same level as fellow conference members.

Because overall athletic excellence is a higher goal than success in one sport. And it's more in line with what our university wants to achieve overall.

Why does Marshall want to be in a conference that it obviously can not compete in and whose administration has failed to make a commitment to bring Marshall up to the same level as fellow conference members? Take out your football points and Marshall is last or next to last in MAC athletics. As it is, they rarely rise higher than 10th or 11th out of 13. Thank goodness they have Buffalo to beat.

From bobcatgrad:

"I was reading as a lurker and then joined after seeing all the negativity posted about my alma mater. I came in to defend my school and then uncovered all the deep deep-seated hatred towards Ohio University on this board. Certain posters must have been very busy pissing everyone off before I got here. . .What gives?"


Have an answer to your question yet?

Kit-Cat Wrote:

DogTracks Wrote:And while Marshall might have a fine football team, their basketball team can't compare to Kent State.

Are you kidding me? Marshall draws better than KentSt in basketball despite all their success. Marshall has a better basketball facility. Kent has been hot of lately, but much like Eastern Michigan they'll fall back to the pack in basketball. Marshall's a sleeping Giant in basketball that just needs the right coach. The Herd used to average 8,000 a game in basketball. Kent will never come close.

Thanks Kit-Kat, I'm sorry I implied you were a pillow biter in the cartoon thread.

Kit-Cat Wrote:

DogTracks Wrote:And while Marshall might have a fine football team, their basketball team can't compare to Kent State.

Are you kidding me? Marshall draws better than KentSt in basketball despite all their success. Marshall has a better basketball facility. Kent has been hot of lately, but much like Eastern Michigan they'll fall back to the pack in basketball. Marshall's a sleeping Giant in basketball that just needs the right coach. The Herd used to average 8,000 a game in basketball. Kent will never come close.

Well, if by our "hot of lately" run you mean the most dominant 5-year run in the history of MAC basketball with the longest run of 20 wins season EVER in the MAC, then I guess it doesn't mean much. Just a fluke. Not like those O'Shea or Knorr powerhouse programs you got there at Ohio National University.

Duke ought to give up basketball soon too because they never seem to be able to draw 8000 like the mighty Herd or Bob hoopsters. There's the mark of true success--forget the wins and losses and NCAA appearances. Let's just count the fools buying tickets.

:rolleyes:

I say MUg leaves this crappy conference with out looking back. We have done all we can for you losers, no its time to take it up another level. 5 out of 6. You guys are easy

KingBob Wrote:well, if it were up to me... I think Toledo should create their own conference... call it.. the King Bob conference... my teams would be the best of the best... listed below

1. Toledo

I always knew you Rockets liked to play with yourselves. :D :rofl:

Kit-Cat Wrote:

4575 Wrote:Buffalo will improve.  Eastern Michigan will improve.  Marshall will fall on hard times.  NIU will lose a lot of games again....... 

I doubt this one too.

Twenty years ago, MAC schools were all very even in competition and it wasn't inconceivable that a Kent st or an Eastern Michigan could make a run at the MAC Championship once in a while.

These days, the top of the MAC has the facilities, fan base and the reputation to consistantly maintain power. Marshall, Toledo, and Miami are good EVERY year. NIU is developing into that kind of a program, so has BG of late. In Pro Sports teams can turn upside down, but it college the powers stay at the top. You are never going to see this Football leauge with EMU, Kent, Buffalo at the top and Marshall, Toledo, Miami at the bottom. In basketball, its already happened over the last few years, but in football........not likely.

I don't buy this. BG turned it's program around in 1 season. Granted, it has some great history, but other programs were past it.

NIU took a longer road, and while they do have improving facilities, it's clear they are on took a different path than BG.

Toledo has a big city to draw from. WMU does too, and yet has been up and down.

Ohio had a great run under Grobe. I don't doubt they could turn it around in 2 years w/ a good coach. (Not 1 year b/c their recruits were so bad this season.) I'd like to see it happen, because 6-7 MAC teams beating the BCS would really be sweet.

Kansas St, N'western, Oregon St...all bottom feeders who've risen up.

It takes a committment, but I think virtually any team can do it.