I will concede "leftists" may be inaccurate in contemporary terms. Much of the turmoil of the '60's came from people willing to mirror the activism of the Founding Fathers. Other terms, such as "revolutionary" and "radical" are more appropriate to compare '60's activists
(or to be fair, activits of any generation) with the American colonists of the mid - late 1700's.

My primary point remains. Whether I agree with their point or not, I applaud those willing to stand up on principle. The '60's and early '70's offer many examples of such character - Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King, Malcom X, Bobby Kennedy, Muhammed Ali and countless of students/others who refused to support an unwinnable war.

So, you are glad you missed the era. I think you missed some highly principles citizens.

sad that what was basically a memorial thread turned into another stupid politial argument...

Kids being shot is incredibly sad and tragic.

On a different note however, what exactly did hippies contribute to society? They sat around doing drugs, wore flamboyant clothes, and sang folk songs. But what did they contribute!?

On top of that, they harassed servicemen who SERVED their country. They had every right to question war, they did not have any right to yell at and mock soldiers. My uncle vividly remembers being harassed by a group of hippies stoned out of their minds, which included 2 rocks being thrown at the soliders.

I don't believe that "era" of citizenship in the U.S. gave anything back to our country.

FlashFan Wrote:I will concede "leftists" may be inaccurate in contemporary terms. Much of the turmoil of the '60's came from people willing to mirror the activism of the Founding Fathers.

I don't think either party has a monopoly on the ideals that founded this country.

Both parties seek inspiration from those ideals.

Any who are interested in first hand accounts may be interested in the following
Daily Kent Stater articles. And, they are idealogically balanced.

<a href='http://www.stateronline.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2005/05/04/42784ce34d420' target='_blank'>http://www.stateronline.com/vnews/display....4/42784ce34d420</a>

The Knight Time Wrote:Kids being shot is incredibly sad and tragic.

On a different note however, what exactly did hippies contribute to society? They sat around doing drugs, wore flamboyant clothes, and sang folk songs. But what did they contribute!?

On top of that, they harassed servicemen who SERVED their country. They had every right to question war, they did not have any right to yell at and mock soldiers. My uncle vividly remembers being harassed by a group of hippies stoned out of their minds, which included 2 rocks being thrown at the soliders.

I don't believe that "era" of citizenship in the U.S. gave anything back to our country.

Yes, I remember seeing some of the 72 convention on TV when I was 12. There were hippies, and there were fringe groups, similar to today.

Some of yesterday's protesters are today's campus sofa and dumpster burners.

However, many students had good reason to protest a corrupt administration, that sent kids to die before they had the right to vote.
You might get a little obnoxious if you received a 1A draft card in the mail.

We may see another draft if we continue to invade countries. Many of our current leaders avoided active duty through various deferrments, so you probably didn't see them amongst the protesters.

FlashFan Wrote:

Quote:I'm glad I wasn't around to witness the late 1960s/ early 1970s. What a miserable time. Vietnam War, the "Great Society", rampant hippie-leftist culture, Detroit riots, Nixon scandal, and awful bellbottoms.

I'm glad you weren't around in the mid 1700's either, or we would be cheering on "football" teams in short pants and drinking warm beer. You've benefitted from the fact that our founding fathers' were outrageous enough to be "leftists" in their day and stood up against their government for something.

Actually a number of them were businessmen that thought they were
being taxed too much and unfairly-"not very leftist".

As a current Kent State student, the debate we have had on this thread about who are the victims and what actually happened goes on in Kent often. For someone who does not have any personal attachment to either side, I think the students here are just frustrated the day of rememberance is turned into a day to push their own political/social agendas by all sides.

The Knight Time Wrote:Kids being shot is incredibly sad and tragic.

On a different note however, what exactly did hippies contribute to society? They sat around doing drugs, wore flamboyant clothes, and sang folk songs. But what did they contribute!?

On top of that, they harassed servicemen who SERVED their country. They had every right to question war, they did not have any right to yell at and mock soldiers. My uncle vividly remembers being harassed by a group of hippies stoned out of their minds, which included 2 rocks being thrown at the soliders.

I don't believe that "era" of citizenship in the U.S. gave anything back to our country.

One might just as easily ask "what do frat boys contribute to society?" And the answer would be that "frat boys", like "hippies" is a prejorative term weighted with negativity. And within the categories of the less prejorative "fraternity brothers" or "anti-war movement" one is likely to find good people who contributed a lot to society as well as people who give both groups a bad name.

The good brought to society by the anti-war movement of that era, (let's be frank, the "Hippie" label was passé by Kent State, and was already a term used to dismiss any organized protestors) was to show the positive achievements that could be gained by organized and non-violent social protest. It woke a lot of people up and got them thinking about how they could change the world in proactive ways.

But it bears repeating, as someone brilliantly brought up, two people killed that day had nothing to do with the protest at all. One walking in the parking lot far from the skirmish. So that severely limits the "Hippies got what they deserved" sentiment, and speaks of general irresponsibility by someone in charge. Less about ideology. Think it can't happen again? Read about the innocent girl who got shot in the eye and killed after the Red Sox win last year. Different, and yet...

A terrible day in the history of a great nation. Kent State could have happened anywhere. Vietnam was a complicated war. In a different time. Vietnam was started in the late 5o's and finished in the 1975.

Back to sports....hippies did have some good sports teams back then. MAC hippies were ranked in many sports. Afro's and sideburns. Walter Luckett on the SI cover for Ohio in the 1970's. Jack Lambert for Kent State. Mike Schimdt for Ohio. The 1970's weren't all bad.

With all due respect, the shootings at Kent State came at the pinnacle of polarized nation dealing with social change. I don't know how it's possible to reflect on the events of the day without consideration of the political events of the time. It's an analogy for asking rememberance of Dr. King without discussion of the Civil Rights movement.

Besides, the debate now is a mere fraction of the hosility at the time. Appropriate, given the passage of thirty five years and one day, but hardly overdone, IMO.

The Knight Time Wrote:Kids being shot is incredibly sad and tragic.

On a different note however, what exactly did hippies contribute to society? They sat around doing drugs, wore flamboyant clothes, and sang folk songs. But what did they contribute!?

On top of that, they harassed servicemen who SERVED their country. They had every right to question war, they did not have any right to yell at and mock soldiers. My uncle vividly remembers being harassed by a group of hippies stoned out of their minds, which included 2 rocks being thrown at the soliders.

I don't believe that "era" of citizenship in the U.S. gave anything back to our country.

I agree with this statement. The students obviously didn't deserve to lose their lives but they did put themselves out on the line.

This may be a bad comparison but this sort of reminds me of those clips that I see on the news where some drugged up guy begins to resist arrest and starts fighting officers. The resistance leads to assault which leads the officers to providing a beat down or more drastic measures. Many times, the community is up in arms over the treatment by officers but the criminal is the one to be blamed.

I guess that what I am saying is that even though the KSU students didn't deserve to die, they did spark a string of events which led to the killing of their classmates.

MacLord Wrote:

The Knight Time Wrote:Kids being shot is incredibly sad and tragic.

On a different note however, what exactly did hippies contribute to society?&nbsp; They sat around doing drugs, wore flamboyant clothes, and sang folk songs.&nbsp; But what did they contribute!?

On top of that, they harassed servicemen who SERVED their country.&nbsp; They had every right to question war, they did not have any right to yell at and mock soldiers.&nbsp; My uncle vividly remembers being harassed by a group of hippies stoned out of their minds, which included 2 rocks being thrown at the soliders.

I don't believe that "era" of citizenship in the U.S. gave anything back to our country.

One might just as easily ask "what do frat boys contribute to society?" And the answer would be that "frat boys", like "hippies" is a prejorative term weighted with negativity. And within the categories of the less prejorative "fraternity brothers" or "anti-war movement" one is likely to find good people who contributed a lot to society as well as people who give both groups a bad name.

The good brought to society by the anti-war movement of that era, (let's be frank, the "Hippie" label was passé by Kent State, and was already a term used to dismiss any organized protestors) was to show the positive achievements that could be gained by organized and non-violent social protest. It woke a lot of people up and got them thinking about how they could change the world in proactive ways.

But it bears repeating, as someone brilliantly brought up, two people killed that day had nothing to do with the protest at all. One walking in the parking lot far from the skirmish. So that severely limits the "Hippies got what they deserved" sentiment, and speaks of general irresponsibility by someone in charge. Less about ideology. Think it can't happen again? Read about the innocent girl who got shot in the eye and killed after the Red Sox win last year. Different, and yet...

Excellent post.

I can't believe the insane opinions of those who aren't even old enough to remember those times...and I don't use the word "insane" lightly. No other word accurately describes the willfull ignorance required to hold some of the opinions expressed in this thread, or those who agree with them. I won't further drag this thread into the typical political areas covered time and again here by pointing out the idiocy of the "hippies spit on our vets" myth that is always dragged out to discredit the anti-war movement that was loaded with people of all stripes, including clergy and veterans. Suffice it to say, the fact that your very even-handed post will probably be ignored by these nuts shows that they choose to be that way.

Touchdown Rrrrrooockets! Wrote:

The Knight Time Wrote:Kids being shot is incredibly sad and tragic.

On a different note however, what exactly did hippies contribute to society?&nbsp; They sat around doing drugs, wore flamboyant clothes, and sang folk songs.&nbsp; But what did they contribute!?

On top of that, they harassed servicemen who SERVED their country.&nbsp; They had every right to question war, they did not have any right to yell at and mock soldiers.&nbsp; My uncle vividly remembers being harassed by a group of hippies stoned out of their minds, which included 2 rocks being thrown at the soliders.

I don't believe that "era" of citizenship in the U.S. gave anything back to our country.

I agree with this statement. The students obviously didn't deserve to lose their lives but they did put themselves out on the line.

This may be a bad comparison but this sort of reminds me of those clips that I see on the news where some drugged up guy begins to resist arrest and starts fighting officers. The resistance leads to assault which leads the officers to providing a beat down or more drastic measures. Many times, the community is up in arms over the treatment by officers but the criminal is the one to be blamed.

I guess that what I am saying is that even though the KSU students didn't deserve to die, they did spark a string of events which led to the killing of their classmates.

TR, I know you aren't old enough to remember any of this, so don't take this as condescention. In that time, on campuses all across the country, kids were protesting war and civil rights (the women's lib movement came a little later, but not much). In many cases, when trouble erupted from a protest or demonstration, it was the work of people from outside the campus instigating trouble, not "hippy students" (though that's not how it was portrayed on the nightly news). State governors often called in the National Guard when they feared such was going to occur in their state.

Did you know that Neil Young wrote Four Dead in Ohio the night of the shootings, and CSN&Y recorded it immediately?

That incident, and the one at Jackson State (which got FAR less publicity because it was a "Negro College") may have done more the end the war than all the protests before or after them. So PERHAPS one can find a shred of good to come out of it.

MacLord Wrote:

The Knight Time Wrote:Kids being shot is incredibly sad and tragic.

On a different note however, what exactly did hippies contribute to society?&nbsp; They sat around doing drugs, wore flamboyant clothes, and sang folk songs.&nbsp; But what did they contribute!?

On top of that, they harassed servicemen who SERVED their country.&nbsp; They had every right to question war, they did not have any right to yell at and mock soldiers.&nbsp; My uncle vividly remembers being harassed by a group of hippies stoned out of their minds, which included 2 rocks being thrown at the soliders.

I don't believe that "era" of citizenship in the U.S. gave anything back to our country.

One might just as easily ask "what do frat boys contribute to society?" And the answer would be that "frat boys", like "hippies" is a prejorative term weighted with negativity. And within the categories of the less prejorative "fraternity brothers" or "anti-war movement" one is likely to find good people who contributed a lot to society as well as people who give both groups a bad name.

The good brought to society by the anti-war movement of that era, (let's be frank, the "Hippie" label was passé by Kent State, and was already a term used to dismiss any organized protestors) was to show the positive achievements that could be gained by organized and non-violent social protest. It woke a lot of people up and got them thinking about how they could change the world in proactive ways.

But it bears repeating, as someone brilliantly brought up, two people killed that day had nothing to do with the protest at all. One walking in the parking lot far from the skirmish. So that severely limits the "Hippies got what they deserved" sentiment, and speaks of general irresponsibility by someone in charge. Less about ideology. Think it can't happen again? Read about the innocent girl who got shot in the eye and killed after the Red Sox win last year. Different, and yet...

On a really different note.......

The Kent State shooting was a tragic end to a large protest.

The Red Sox shooting was a tragic end to a STUPID riot that put policemen's lives at risk and made their job near impossible containing everyone.

I'm sorry, but if people are stupid enough to ruin their city, burn things, and destroy people's property over a friggin sports victory, then people shouldn't act so suprised when something bad happens.

Cops can't differentiate if someone is reaching to throw a rock, grab a lighter, or actually pull out a gun amid the chaos.

Touchdown Rrrrrooockets! Wrote:This may be a bad comparison but this sort of reminds me of those clips that I see on the news where some drugged up guy begins to resist arrest and starts fighting officers.

It is a bad comparison.

SF,

Quote:Fundamentally untrue.

You are right. Both elephants and donkeys are known to use government jurisdiction to force their agendas through, in their own way. I should've used the term 'fiscal' or 'economical' in the part you quoted me on. But I think you've known me long enough to see where I was coming from.

BTW, a Texas law to <a href='http://www.news8austin.com/content/headlines/?ArID=136577&SecID=2' target='_blank'>ban</a> sexy cheerleaders' moves was proposed by a Dem. Those damn uptight puritans.

Quote:So, you are glad you missed the era. I think you missed some highly principles citizens.

There are highly principled citizens in every era. Some make headlines, some don't. But they are there just the same.

Guys, there's no right or wrong answer to this. It's a matter of opinion. If I were to build a time machine out of a DeLorean and travel back in time, the late 1960s would not be at the top of my list. It doesn't mean that I just don't understand or "appreciate" the main players of such-and-such era. Nor does it mean that I disagree with the opposition to the war at the time.

Karl Wrote:TR, I know you aren't old enough to remember any of this, so don't take this as condescention.

Not a problem. You are correct, I wasn't born until the following decade so I had to learn about it in my elementary school history books. I also don't remember as much of what I was taught as you remember what actually occured. I understand that there are differences of opinions here and I can not base my opinion on what I saw that day. I can only base it on my opinion of present day protesters and the like. It may be unfair to form opinions about groups from two different generations but I am guessing the ideology is the same. BTW, I am not questioning the reason that the students had for opposition. I have never met anyone (veteran or non-vet) that can tell me why the Vietnam War was a positive event. With that said, I can understand the opposition of the students but am only questioning their actions and the way they handled the situation. I seem to see a lot of riots or uncivil protests in the news nowadays and oftentimes people of this same ideology resort to name calling (nuts, stupid, ******, etc.) when someone doesn't agree with their opinion.

The Knight Time Wrote:Cops can't differentiate if someone is reaching to throw a rock, grab a lighter, or actually pull out a gun amid the chaos.

Can they differentiate kids who are 110 yards away and walking to class? That woiuld cover two of the murdered kids students....who were hardly "hippies." One was in ROTC.

Karl Wrote:

Touchdown Rrrrrooockets! Wrote:

The Knight Time Wrote:Kids being shot is incredibly sad and tragic.

On a different note however, what exactly did hippies contribute to society?  They sat around doing drugs, wore flamboyant clothes, and sang folk songs.  But what did they contribute!?

On top of that, they harassed servicemen who SERVED their country.  They had every right to question war, they did not have any right to yell at and mock soldiers.  My uncle vividly remembers being harassed by a group of hippies stoned out of their minds, which included 2 rocks being thrown at the soliders.

I don't believe that "era" of citizenship in the U.S. gave anything back to our country.

I agree with this statement. The students obviously didn't deserve to lose their lives but they did put themselves out on the line.

This may be a bad comparison but this sort of reminds me of those clips that I see on the news where some drugged up guy begins to resist arrest and starts fighting officers. The resistance leads to assault which leads the officers to providing a beat down or more drastic measures. Many times, the community is up in arms over the treatment by officers but the criminal is the one to be blamed.

I guess that what I am saying is that even though the KSU students didn't deserve to die, they did spark a string of events which led to the killing of their classmates.

That incident, and the one at Jackson State (which got FAR less publicity because it was a "Negro College") may have done more the end the war than all the protests before or after them. So PERHAPS one can find a shred of good to come out of it.

I think you may be right, Karl. I was around
then, and I believe that the mood of the country
started to shift about that time.

The Kent State shootings shocked us, our parents,
and I believe the Government. I think everyone started
getting a little different perspective on the war.