(07-11-2017 01:15 PM)OrangeDude Wrote:  

(07-11-2017 10:51 AM)BePcr07 Wrote:  

(07-11-2017 10:15 AM)ken d Wrote:  We each will have our own definition of what qualifies as a "blue blood" or an "elite". For me, the lack of a clearcut way of identifying the best teams before 1951 (the year that the NCAAT went to 16 teams, and essentially supplanted the NIT as the premier post season tourney) makes that something of a cutoff.

I define a blue blood as a school with at least 10 Final Four appearances since that time, at least two of which came more than fifty years ago. By that standard, there are only five schools who qualify (# of FFs in parentheses):

North Carolina (18)
UCLA (18)
Duke (16)
Kentucky (14)
Kansas (13)

Combined, they represent 30% of all Final Four appearances since 1951.

Louisville (10) and Michigan State (9) come close, but with only one each before 1968. Some may want to add these two, but I'm comfortable defending my list.

If you look only at FF's since the tourney field was expanded to 48 in 1980 (removing the limits on how many teams from one conference could be invited), four of these schools also rank at the top. Only UCLA doesn't make that list, with only 5 appearances (tied for 7th with Syracuse and Florida). From 1962-1976, UCLA made it a staggering 13 times, missing only in 1963 and 1966 before a run of 10 straight. I believe the second longest streaks of FF appearances belong to Cincinnati, with 5 visits between 1959 and 1963 and Duke, which did it from '88-92.

I like your definition because it includes historical success.

Blue Blood - historical success which has built a name & recent success which makes the program relevant
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Consistent Contender - some previous success, some recent success (at least 1 championship)
Elite - a lot of recent success which makes the program relevant (at least 1 championship), some historical success
Old Guard - a lot of historical success which has built a name (at least 1 championship), some recent success
---
New Blood - recent success without a championship, limited historical success
Ghost - historical success without a championship, limited recent success

3 examples of each:

Blue Blood: North Carolina, Kansas, Kentucky
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Consistent Contender: Villanova, Louisville, Michigan St
Elite: Connecticut, Florida, Arizona
Old Guard: Indiana, Georgetown, North Carolina St
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New Blood: Gonzaga, Wichita St, Butler
Ghost: Houston, Seton Hall, DePaul

I think you are both are on the right track here. I assume ken d was trying to address the Elite/Blue Blood conundrum while I see BePrc07 was attempting to go beyond that distinguished level, although I wonder if the latter categories are even necessary until championships are won.

Perhaps something along these lines, where not every level will always need a program or programs:

1. Emperor Elite - Blue Blood - Duke, Kansas, Kentucky, North Carolina, and UCLA (alpha) - no one is likely to newly join this group, but a program here could fall out to Level 3 if they go through about a 20 year period of mediocrity just as the program currently at Level 3 could rejoin this status with more current success

2. King Elite - Current, but not Blue Blood - Connecticut and Louisville (alpha) - for the foreseeable future this is the highest level for everyone not eligible for Emperor Elite status

3. Aging Emperor Elite - Former Blue Blood now surpassed by King Elites, but still Elite themselves - Indiana (probably needs 1 more NC and 2 more FFs to go back to being Emperor status - only my opinion)

4. Ascending Baron - Top Current Contenders to join the King Elites at level 2 - Michigan State (basically only needs 1 more NC to accomplish this, again, imho)

5. Baron (with work to do) Top Current Contenders who need either another NC to join Level 4 status or another NC and 2 or 3 more FFs to join Level 2 status - Arizona, Florida, Michigan, Ohio State, Syracuse, and Villanova (alpha) (I will not go into detail here as to which team needs what)

6. Descending Baron - Former Contenders who need more current success E8s, FFs, etc. (not necessarily NCs) to rejoin the conversation and get back to at least Level 4 or 5 - Cincinnati, Georgetown, and NC State

7. Knight - I see about 12 programs in this category, but don't have the inclination to list them all at this time.

Anyway, that's my thoughts on this topic.

Having fun tinkering with it some more, or even tearing it down.

Cheers,
Neil

PS - I know in a little while I will remember some program I left off.

I enjoyed your commentary. College sports are tier-able but it is not completely objective which makes it fun.