(04-30-2019 08:34 AM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  

(04-30-2019 08:30 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(04-30-2019 08:26 AM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  

(04-30-2019 08:20 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(04-30-2019 07:38 AM)VA49er Wrote:  Is the reason we haven't seen these clubs in the PL due to ownership issues?

Leeds, absolutely. They narrowly avoided full default in the early 00's by selling all of their top players (Rio Ferdinand, Robbie Keane, David Batty, Olivier Dacourt, James Milner, etc.) to pay back debts, but it cost them essentially two straight relegations, and they were stuck in League One/Championship cycle ever since.

Sheffield United are way different...they were the kings of the old First Division from the late 1800's (they're one of the oldest organized football clubs in England), but their roster was ravaged by the Wars, and they never recovered when other teams did in the 60's because most Sheffield youths were poached by the "Other United" (Manchester). Couple that with their unprecedented bad luck in (made 7 promotion playoffs since 2000 and haven't won one), and that's why they are where the are.

Nottingham are a crazy case in player ambition killing clubs. From 77-92, they were arguably the second best club in Britain, winning the First Division once, along with two runners up and 4 third place finishes and 4 League Cups paired with their European (and English Members after the Heysel Distaster) success of 7 cups won in that time frame. The issues cropped up when the big clubs started consolidating earnings as this was before the standard revenue sharing, and went after their players in droves. First to leave was Teddy Sheringham then Nigel Clough, Roy Keane, and Des Walker once Brian Clough retired as manager...and after he left it was all downhill. They've been solid for awhile in the Championship, just haven't been able to put the right team together to break from the mid-table.

Minus the Clough years, neither Derby or Forest have really been consistent First division clubs. We think they are bigger than they actually are because of how great their glory years were under Clough.

We talk about Sir Alex and how great he was but pound for pound Brian Clough is the greatest manager in the last 40 years on English football(Post Shankly Era).

Absolutely, but when you think about it, that was the better part of 3 decades where current fans were growing up, so it makes sense that many see Forest as a bigger club. Plus, with them being I think the 5th oldest club in the history of Association Football, they've got history.

Couldn't agree more...Clough is by far the best English manager in history in my opinion (and I would recommend reading or watching The Damned United to get some more perspective on him if you haven't yet). You mention Fergie and Shankly...if you think about them along with Matt Busby, it's fascinating how the Scots have had some of the best football minds of all time, yet they can never really do a thing on the field.

I've seen Damned United but never read it. Michael Sheen is great as Clough.

Yep...craziest thing about Clough is that if he didn't get injured he could've gone down as one of the best pure strikers in English club history too. His early scoring record was insane, 267 goals in 296 games before his injury at age 27. His goal rate was far better than that of Jimmy Greaves, Bobby Charlton, Nat Lofthouse, Alan Shearer, Geoff Hurst, etc...but he just couldn't get out of the second division.