(03-31-2012 11:49 AM)OrangeCrush22 Wrote:  

(03-31-2012 11:29 AM)He1nousOne Wrote:  I would definitely agree that the Rutgers and UConn invites to the ACC go out soon after FSU and Clemson departures, if they were to happen.

I think if the ACC were to lose two schools then they'd sit at 12. If you lose FSU one of the top programs in football, and Clemson one of the better ones you don't replace them with UConn and Rutgers. Especially when you still have enough teams for a conference title game.

You think if FSU and Clemson leave that schools like Miami and Georgia Tech wouldn't be thinking about how they wouldn't mind going with?

If it is true that the ACC went to 14 to act before departures so they would never drop below 12 then that same mindset is relevant in the current situation if FSU and Clemson are actually thinking about leaving. If they do leave you have to seriously take into consideration that two more will leave with them. If you do not want Pitt to then go, you invite Rutgers and UConn to make them think twice.

UConn would insure the ACC is the dominant Basketball conference, Rutgers would get 'em in New York's door. They may not necessarily be worth bringing in and going to 16...but they could be a good fallback to get back to 14 for those two reasons alone. The ACC takes pride in it's hoops, which DOES add value, and is one reason why I think the two more football oriented schools are looking to bolt.

Clemson is mad because expansion has stolen their thunder.
Clemson more than any other ACC team has suffered because of expansion. The Tigers have lost their preeminence in several sports in the ACC since expansion. They are no longer "THE" football team of the conference and they are now just one of many really good baseball programs in the ACC.
But they are the best academic institution in South Carolina, and for an engineering school to pass up an opportunity to collaborate with Va. Tech, NC State, and Georgia Tech (not to mention Duke, UVa and Maryland) for athletics is a little hard to imagine. On the Ag side, the research is location oriented. What applies to South Carolina might not translate to Oklahoma.

Florida State is a different matter altogether.
FSU is the one school in the ACC that is least like the rest from an academic standpoint. BUT....if FSU was really going to leave the ACC, I don't thing that Mike Slive is stupid enough to let them go to the Big XII.
If FSU leaves it would be for the SEC not the Big XII. If that happens, I think you will see one of the SEC schools slide into the ACC (my guess would be Vanderbilt or South Carolina). The leagues would make sure the money issues are worked out amongst all parties involved.

p.s. I don't think Mike Slive is stupid.

For ATHLETICS I don't think ANYONE would move. For the MONEY those athletics bring, especially in this economy, I can ABSOLUTELY see schools moving. That research costs money...

(03-31-2012 09:45 AM)EerMeNow Wrote:  

(03-31-2012 09:44 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  OK. When the Big XII has a new commissioner, they'll decide who wants to join and invite 'em...

Now that's going out on a limb.

Like I tell all my nephews, never bet unless it's a sure thing...

(03-31-2012 11:11 AM)3rdandBlunder Wrote:  There's been talk of Rutgers to the BigXII, though I'm skeptical of that. The ACC seems like a reasonable choice for UConn and Rutgers, especially if they lose the two of Clemson and FSU.

I think there's some very good schools left out there honestly to do something with that just aren't being looked at by the big leagues. Boise, Houston...those schools are stout and would help make a solid backbone. While I think Cincy is a dark horse candidate for the BigXII, I wouldn't write them completely off just yet depending on what BYU decided to do.

3rd, from what I gather, Rutgers is as good a choice as any other. Once Louisville bridges the gap between WVU and the rest of the Big XII, Rutgers isn't that much of a stretch. It's about the same distance from Morgantown as Louisville. It would also give the Big XII a foothold into the NYC audience, which would enhance the value of the Big XII's TV contract...

If FSU and Clemson are real possibilities for Big XII membership, adding Rutgers and Louisville to get to 14 would round things out nicely. It would allow the Big XII to rival the SEC in overall football strength, and would give the Big XII a TV presense in Florida and South Carolina, as well as up the Ohio Valley to Pittsburgh, covering the State of West Virginia east to D.C. and Baltimore, reaching up to NYC...

It makes sense to me...

(03-31-2012 12:00 PM)XLance Wrote:  Clemson is mad because expansion has stolen their thunder.
Clemson more than any other ACC team has suffered because of expansion. The Tigers have lost their preeminence in several sports in the ACC since expansion. They are no longer "THE" football team of the conference and they are now just one of many really good baseball programs in the ACC.
But they are the best academic institution in South Carolina, and for an engineering school to pass up an opportunity to collaborate with Va. Tech, NC State, and Georgia Tech (not to mention Duke, UVa and Maryland) for athletics is a little hard to imagine. On the Ag side, the research is location oriented. What applies to South Carolina might not translate to Oklahoma.

Florida State is a different matter altogether.
FSU is the one school in the ACC that is least like the rest from an academic standpoint. BUT....if FSU was really going to leave the ACC, I don't thing that Mike Slive is stupid enough to let them go to the Big XII.
If FSU leaves it would be for the SEC not the Big XII. If that happens, I think you will see one of the SEC schools slide into the ACC (my guess would be Vanderbilt or South Carolina). The leagues would make sure the money issues are worked out amongst all parties involved.

p.s. I don't think Mike Slive is stupid.

Well, I do disagree but you have some very well thought out points here. I don't see why Institutions cannot maintain ties with each other independent of conference ties when it comes to shared research. If both institutions see that kind of independent relationship as beneficial then I do not see why it could not happen. Perhaps some ACC bylaws might keep it from happening or even internal pressure from other ACC institutions for G Tech, NC State and V Tech to not deal with them.

In the doomsday scenario though the ACC pretty much ceases to exist. NC State and V Tech end up in the SEC, G Tech and Clemson end up in the Big 12. That is pretty equal footing for those schools. I am sure then some agreements can be made for them all to remain in collaboration as they used to know in the ACC.

You brought up a very real hurdle to face with the educational side but I would think that if the desire to move is high enough, agreements and negotiations can be made in order to make it over that hurdle.

The more powerful of your two arguments is indeed the one of whether or not the SEC would try and block an FSU move to the Big 12. I see that as a very real possibility IF the SEC decides it is better to play defense rather than offense. If they let the ACC falter then they sit back and let themselves get into North Carolina and Virginia when they are approached by institutions from those states. There is all this talk about an SEC and ACC relationship but if the Big 12 comes out the victor why couldn't there become an SEC/Big 12 relationship? Yeah currently there are harsh feelings over A&M and Missouri but if the Big 12 landed the Florida coup all that is going to be forgotten. If not forgotten, the anger of such will definitely die down.

In that scenario an SEC/Big 12 relationship would allow for all of those previous educational and research partnerships to continue to flourish. The SEC will also not have to worry about continuing to prop it's partner up which is what you are proposing it would do with the ACC in order to block the Big 12.

I think it is just as possible that the SEC decides to play it's hand out fully and go for the biggest market area possible then work on partnering up with the Big 12 as the B1G and PAC are doing.

(03-31-2012 11:29 AM)OrangeCrush22 Wrote:  When was the last time Greg Swaim was right about expansion?

Never.

(03-31-2012 12:11 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  

(03-31-2012 12:00 PM)XLance Wrote:  Clemson is mad because expansion has stolen their thunder.
Clemson more than any other ACC team has suffered because of expansion. The Tigers have lost their preeminence in several sports in the ACC since expansion. They are no longer "THE" football team of the conference and they are now just one of many really good baseball programs in the ACC.
But they are the best academic institution in South Carolina, and for an engineering school to pass up an opportunity to collaborate with Va. Tech, NC State, and Georgia Tech (not to mention Duke, UVa and Maryland) for athletics is a little hard to imagine. On the Ag side, the research is location oriented. What applies to South Carolina might not translate to Oklahoma.

Florida State is a different matter altogether.
FSU is the one school in the ACC that is least like the rest from an academic standpoint. BUT....if FSU was really going to leave the ACC, I don't thing that Mike Slive is stupid enough to let them go to the Big XII.
If FSU leaves it would be for the SEC not the Big XII. If that happens, I think you will see one of the SEC schools slide into the ACC (my guess would be Vanderbilt or South Carolina). The leagues would make sure the money issues are worked out amongst all parties involved.

p.s. I don't think Mike Slive is stupid.

Well, I do disagree but you have some very well thought out points here. I don't see why Institutions cannot maintain ties with each other independent of conference ties when it comes to shared research. If both institutions see that kind of independent relationship as beneficial then I do not see why it could not happen. Perhaps some ACC bylaws might keep it from happening or even internal pressure from other ACC institutions for G Tech, NC State and V Tech to not deal with them.

In the doomsday scenario though the ACC pretty much ceases to exist. NC State and V Tech end up in the SEC, G Tech and Clemson end up in the Big 12. That is pretty equal footing for those schools. I am sure then some agreements can be made for them all to remain in collaboration as they used to know in the ACC.

You brought up a very real hurdle to face with the educational side but I would think that if the desire to move is high enough, agreements and negotiations can be made in order to make it over that hurdle.

The more powerful of your two arguments is indeed the one of whether or not the SEC would try and block an FSU move to the Big 12. I see that as a very real possibility IF the SEC decides it is better to play defense rather than offense. If they let the ACC falter then they sit back and let themselves get into North Carolina and Virginia when they are approached by institutions from those states. There is all this talk about an SEC and ACC relationship but if the Big 12 comes out the victor why couldn't there become an SEC/Big 12 relationship? Yeah currently there are harsh feelings over A&M and Missouri but if the Big 12 landed the Florida coup all that is going to be forgotten. If not forgotten, the anger of such will definitely die down.

In that scenario an SEC/Big 12 relationship would allow for all of those previous educational and research partnerships to continue to flourish. The SEC will also not have to worry about continuing to prop it's partner up which is what you are proposing it would do with the ACC in order to block the Big 12.

I think it is just as possible that the SEC decides to play it's hand out fully and go for the biggest market area possible then work on partnering up with the Big 12 as the B1G and PAC are doing.

Thank you.
If the SEC wants to play out it's hand fully it will involve taking Texas. Then the Big XII will cease to exist in a very short time.
It's interesting how many say that ther are so many ACC schools that have value to other conferences (FSU, Clemson to the Big XII), and Maryland, UVa, Carolina and Duke to the B1G), but nobody seems to understand or acknowledge how strong a group of 12 (soon to be 14) the ACC really is.
The strongest confernces (SEC, B1G, PAC, and ACC((after Pitt and Syracuse)) ) are contiguous.

(03-31-2012 12:40 PM)XLance Wrote:  

(03-31-2012 12:11 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  

(03-31-2012 12:00 PM)XLance Wrote:  Clemson is mad because expansion has stolen their thunder.
Clemson more than any other ACC team has suffered because of expansion. The Tigers have lost their preeminence in several sports in the ACC since expansion. They are no longer "THE" football team of the conference and they are now just one of many really good baseball programs in the ACC.
But they are the best academic institution in South Carolina, and for an engineering school to pass up an opportunity to collaborate with Va. Tech, NC State, and Georgia Tech (not to mention Duke, UVa and Maryland) for athletics is a little hard to imagine. On the Ag side, the research is location oriented. What applies to South Carolina might not translate to Oklahoma.

Florida State is a different matter altogether.
FSU is the one school in the ACC that is least like the rest from an academic standpoint. BUT....if FSU was really going to leave the ACC, I don't thing that Mike Slive is stupid enough to let them go to the Big XII.
If FSU leaves it would be for the SEC not the Big XII. If that happens, I think you will see one of the SEC schools slide into the ACC (my guess would be Vanderbilt or South Carolina). The leagues would make sure the money issues are worked out amongst all parties involved.

p.s. I don't think Mike Slive is stupid.

Well, I do disagree but you have some very well thought out points here. I don't see why Institutions cannot maintain ties with each other independent of conference ties when it comes to shared research. If both institutions see that kind of independent relationship as beneficial then I do not see why it could not happen. Perhaps some ACC bylaws might keep it from happening or even internal pressure from other ACC institutions for G Tech, NC State and V Tech to not deal with them.

In the doomsday scenario though the ACC pretty much ceases to exist. NC State and V Tech end up in the SEC, G Tech and Clemson end up in the Big 12. That is pretty equal footing for those schools. I am sure then some agreements can be made for them all to remain in collaboration as they used to know in the ACC.

You brought up a very real hurdle to face with the educational side but I would think that if the desire to move is high enough, agreements and negotiations can be made in order to make it over that hurdle.

The more powerful of your two arguments is indeed the one of whether or not the SEC would try and block an FSU move to the Big 12. I see that as a very real possibility IF the SEC decides it is better to play defense rather than offense. If they let the ACC falter then they sit back and let themselves get into North Carolina and Virginia when they are approached by institutions from those states. There is all this talk about an SEC and ACC relationship but if the Big 12 comes out the victor why couldn't there become an SEC/Big 12 relationship? Yeah currently there are harsh feelings over A&M and Missouri but if the Big 12 landed the Florida coup all that is going to be forgotten. If not forgotten, the anger of such will definitely die down.

In that scenario an SEC/Big 12 relationship would allow for all of those previous educational and research partnerships to continue to flourish. The SEC will also not have to worry about continuing to prop it's partner up which is what you are proposing it would do with the ACC in order to block the Big 12.

I think it is just as possible that the SEC decides to play it's hand out fully and go for the biggest market area possible then work on partnering up with the Big 12 as the B1G and PAC are doing.

Thank you.
If the SEC wants to play out it's hand fully it will involve taking Texas. Then the Big XII will cease to exist in a very short time.
It's interesting how many say that ther are so many ACC schools that have value to other conferences (FSU, Clemson to the Big XII), and Maryland, UVa, Carolina and Duke to the B1G), but nobody seems to understand or acknowledge how strong a group of 12 (soon to be 14) the ACC really is.
The strongest confernces (SEC, B1G, PAC, and ACC((after Pitt and Syracuse)) ) are contiguous.

Well, I do refer to it as the ACC vs Big 12 battle right? That means it is not a slaughter and yes the ACC does stand a shot at pulling something out.

I just feel that right now the ACC is standing on weaker footing because Texas went ahead with tv rights with the Big 12 and they signed on to a broadcasting deal that definitely puts the Big 12 above the ACC currently.

If the premise of your scenario happening is Texas moving to the SEC though....then that is going to be a hard sell. With Texas A&M the SEC can then begin expanding the broadcasting of its' games into Texas. If an SEC network is launched then they will be selling it to markets in Texas, especially when you consider LSU and Arkansas also have viewership in Texas. With a program landed in North Carolina and one in Virginia that opens those entire states to more SEC viewing. I think that is a more sure thing then trying to pull Texas into the SEC.

(03-31-2012 12:40 PM)XLance Wrote:  If the SEC wants to play out it's hand fully it will involve taking Texas. Then the Big XII will cease to exist in a very short time.

If Texas was willing to take an equal share of conference revenues and willing to give up ESPN's $15 million bribe a/k/a LHN, then they would have already joined the Pac or B1G or SEC. They haven't joined one of those leagues because they like their bribe money, they like making a lot more money than their conference competitors, and they like being in a position of power and control in their league.

The Big 12 might be around for quite awhile because no other "major" conference will go along with UT's demands in these areas.

Just the other day, Slive again said that the SEC does not permit its members to have their own school network. On top of that, UT likes being a big fish in a smaller pond, and the SEC has too many of its own big fish for UT to ever want to join.