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Please tell me why waiting is better than expanding now
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adluther Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Please tell me why waiting is better than expanding now
(06-19-2010 06:32 PM)miko33 Wrote:  I'll give you a few reasons...

1) Adding the 2 - 4 teams you want to add (from the group of ECU, UCF, Temple, Memphis, Southern Miss, other CUSA teams???) will weaken the BE both literally and perception wise. Any of these teams will be in the bottom portion of the league from the start, and none of these schools would be respected by the other BCS conferences.

2) These schools are being invited on potential only. There is no guarantee that these schools will become the instant successes that UL had for a short period of time, or be able to make some of the big splashes that USF has made on occasion until their Nov collapses. There is probably a realistic statistical analysis that could be completed to determine the likely success of each candidate school. Out of all of them UCF is probably the only realistic team that MAY significantly improve.

3) Another factor to consider is that the face of the conference would be forever changed, and the football power would be gone from the original remaining BE teams into the new BE teams (the CUSA block). I don't think that Pitt, Syracuse, Rutgers or WVU would like to see the CUSA invites be able to outvote the established programs on policy.

I think another way is needed to greatly improve the BE. The BE needs to develop the network first, leverage the large DMAs that are within the BB schools regions and the few FB schools that have larger viewing areas. If/when the money rolls in will be when the BE will be able to invite established, quality FB schools to the conference. Until the BEN becomes a reality, staying the course is the best move in my opinion.

Cincy was a mid range C-USA team while they were there. Now they are giving a rear end kicking to you guys. When the right money comes to the right team, ... look what happens.
06-19-2010 10:05 PM
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buckaineer Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Please tell me why waiting is better than expanding now
(06-19-2010 10:05 PM)adluther Wrote:  
(06-19-2010 06:32 PM)miko33 Wrote:  I'll give you a few reasons...

1) Adding the 2 - 4 teams you want to add (from the group of ECU, UCF, Temple, Memphis, Southern Miss, other CUSA teams???) will weaken the BE both literally and perception wise. Any of these teams will be in the bottom portion of the league from the start, and none of these schools would be respected by the other BCS conferences.

2) These schools are being invited on potential only. There is no guarantee that these schools will become the instant successes that UL had for a short period of time, or be able to make some of the big splashes that USF has made on occasion until their Nov collapses. There is probably a realistic statistical analysis that could be completed to determine the likely success of each candidate school. Out of all of them UCF is probably the only realistic team that MAY significantly improve.

3) Another factor to consider is that the face of the conference would be forever changed, and the football power would be gone from the original remaining BE teams into the new BE teams (the CUSA block). I don't think that Pitt, Syracuse, Rutgers or WVU would like to see the CUSA invites be able to outvote the established programs on policy.

I think another way is needed to greatly improve the BE. The BE needs to develop the network first, leverage the large DMAs that are within the BB schools regions and the few FB schools that have larger viewing areas. If/when the money rolls in will be when the BE will be able to invite established, quality FB schools to the conference. Until the BEN becomes a reality, staying the course is the best move in my opinion.

Cincy was a mid range C-USA team while they were there. Now they are giving a rear end kicking to you guys. When the right money comes to the right team, ... look what happens.

In the five years prior to them joining the big East Cincinnati was 7-2 vs. ECU and Memphis. UCF wasn't a part of the league. All in all they were 8-8 vs. those two. They were always in a better recruiting area, in the BE footprint and in a bigger market than those two. Cincinnati bb up to that point was every bit as good as Memphis if not better and ECU wasn't even comparable. They also had a lot of history with the traditional BE football teams over a good period of time. Their academics were superior to ECU and Memphis. They had rivalries with UL who was also added. It wasn't a difficult choice between the three.
06-19-2010 10:20 PM
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adluther Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Please tell me why waiting is better than expanding now
(06-19-2010 10:20 PM)buckaineer Wrote:  
(06-19-2010 10:05 PM)adluther Wrote:  
(06-19-2010 06:32 PM)miko33 Wrote:  I'll give you a few reasons...

1) Adding the 2 - 4 teams you want to add (from the group of ECU, UCF, Temple, Memphis, Southern Miss, other CUSA teams???) will weaken the BE both literally and perception wise. Any of these teams will be in the bottom portion of the league from the start, and none of these schools would be respected by the other BCS conferences.

2) These schools are being invited on potential only. There is no guarantee that these schools will become the instant successes that UL had for a short period of time, or be able to make some of the big splashes that USF has made on occasion until their Nov collapses. There is probably a realistic statistical analysis that could be completed to determine the likely success of each candidate school. Out of all of them UCF is probably the only realistic team that MAY significantly improve.

3) Another factor to consider is that the face of the conference would be forever changed, and the football power would be gone from the original remaining BE teams into the new BE teams (the CUSA block). I don't think that Pitt, Syracuse, Rutgers or WVU would like to see the CUSA invites be able to outvote the established programs on policy.

I think another way is needed to greatly improve the BE. The BE needs to develop the network first, leverage the large DMAs that are within the BB schools regions and the few FB schools that have larger viewing areas. If/when the money rolls in will be when the BE will be able to invite established, quality FB schools to the conference. Until the BEN becomes a reality, staying the course is the best move in my opinion.

Cincy was a mid range C-USA team while they were there. Now they are giving a rear end kicking to you guys. When the right money comes to the right team, ... look what happens.

In the five years prior to them joining the big East Cincinnati was 7-2 vs. ECU and Memphis. UCF wasn't a part of the league. All in all they were 8-8 vs. those two. They were always in a better recruiting area, in the BE footprint and in a bigger market than those two. Cincinnati bb up to that point was every bit as good as Memphis if not better and ECU wasn't even comparable. They also had a lot of history with the traditional BE football teams over a good period of time. Their academics were superior to ECU and Memphis. They had rivalries with UL who was also added. It wasn't a difficult choice between the three.
Pretty sure both UL and Cincy were both teir 4 until they were put in the big east and within a year they were up to a teir 3. Again, money does that.
(This post was last modified: 06-19-2010 10:25 PM by adluther.)
06-19-2010 10:24 PM
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buckaineer Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Please tell me why waiting is better than expanding now
(06-19-2010 10:24 PM)adluther Wrote:  
(06-19-2010 10:20 PM)buckaineer Wrote:  
(06-19-2010 10:05 PM)adluther Wrote:  
(06-19-2010 06:32 PM)miko33 Wrote:  I'll give you a few reasons...

1) Adding the 2 - 4 teams you want to add (from the group of ECU, UCF, Temple, Memphis, Southern Miss, other CUSA teams???) will weaken the BE both literally and perception wise. Any of these teams will be in the bottom portion of the league from the start, and none of these schools would be respected by the other BCS conferences.

2) These schools are being invited on potential only. There is no guarantee that these schools will become the instant successes that UL had for a short period of time, or be able to make some of the big splashes that USF has made on occasion until their Nov collapses. There is probably a realistic statistical analysis that could be completed to determine the likely success of each candidate school. Out of all of them UCF is probably the only realistic team that MAY significantly improve.

3) Another factor to consider is that the face of the conference would be forever changed, and the football power would be gone from the original remaining BE teams into the new BE teams (the CUSA block). I don't think that Pitt, Syracuse, Rutgers or WVU would like to see the CUSA invites be able to outvote the established programs on policy.

I think another way is needed to greatly improve the BE. The BE needs to develop the network first, leverage the large DMAs that are within the BB schools regions and the few FB schools that have larger viewing areas. If/when the money rolls in will be when the BE will be able to invite established, quality FB schools to the conference. Until the BEN becomes a reality, staying the course is the best move in my opinion.

Cincy was a mid range C-USA team while they were there. Now they are giving a rear end kicking to you guys. When the right money comes to the right team, ... look what happens.

In the five years prior to them joining the big East Cincinnati was 7-2 vs. ECU and Memphis. UCF wasn't a part of the league. All in all they were 8-8 vs. those two. They were always in a better recruiting area, in the BE footprint and in a bigger market than those two. Cincinnati bb up to that point was every bit as good as Memphis if not better and ECU wasn't even comparable. They also had a lot of history with the traditional BE football teams over a good period of time. Their academics were superior to ECU and Memphis. They had rivalries with UL who was also added. It wasn't a difficult choice between the three.
Pretty sure both UL and Cincy were both teir 4 until they were put in the big east and within a year they were up to a teir 3. Again, money does that.

You do the research. UL and USF, not UC were in tier 4 but moved up around the time of entering the Big East as both made major commitments financially and academically in order to be upgraded and accepted into the league
06-19-2010 10:26 PM
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ClairtonPanther Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Please tell me why waiting is better than expanding now
You know what... I say eff this league... If our Presidents and AD's have such contrast views on how to proceed with our future, then whats the point of having a league. I don't care who gets left behind because I know Pitt and WVU would end up in a BCS conference regardless.

Now here's the deal. The Presidents and AD's aren't in as much dissagreement as we are. They actually understand the business aspect. Loiusville doesn't want to lose money just to add a school.

All I ask is everyone to stop blaming the hoops schools. They aren't holding us hostage. The football schools could add schools if they wanted to if it wants to. The commish already stated that he wouldn't be apposed to a 9/17 hybrid. Think about it people. I'm all for expansion. I see the need in going to 9 or 10. But we have to be smart about it just a little bit.
06-19-2010 10:30 PM
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adluther Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Please tell me why waiting is better than expanding now
(06-19-2010 10:26 PM)buckaineer Wrote:  
(06-19-2010 10:24 PM)adluther Wrote:  
(06-19-2010 10:20 PM)buckaineer Wrote:  
(06-19-2010 10:05 PM)adluther Wrote:  
(06-19-2010 06:32 PM)miko33 Wrote:  I'll give you a few reasons...

1) Adding the 2 - 4 teams you want to add (from the group of ECU, UCF, Temple, Memphis, Southern Miss, other CUSA teams???) will weaken the BE both literally and perception wise. Any of these teams will be in the bottom portion of the league from the start, and none of these schools would be respected by the other BCS conferences.

2) These schools are being invited on potential only. There is no guarantee that these schools will become the instant successes that UL had for a short period of time, or be able to make some of the big splashes that USF has made on occasion until their Nov collapses. There is probably a realistic statistical analysis that could be completed to determine the likely success of each candidate school. Out of all of them UCF is probably the only realistic team that MAY significantly improve.

3) Another factor to consider is that the face of the conference would be forever changed, and the football power would be gone from the original remaining BE teams into the new BE teams (the CUSA block). I don't think that Pitt, Syracuse, Rutgers or WVU would like to see the CUSA invites be able to outvote the established programs on policy.

I think another way is needed to greatly improve the BE. The BE needs to develop the network first, leverage the large DMAs that are within the BB schools regions and the few FB schools that have larger viewing areas. If/when the money rolls in will be when the BE will be able to invite established, quality FB schools to the conference. Until the BEN becomes a reality, staying the course is the best move in my opinion.

Cincy was a mid range C-USA team while they were there. Now they are giving a rear end kicking to you guys. When the right money comes to the right team, ... look what happens.

In the five years prior to them joining the big East Cincinnati was 7-2 vs. ECU and Memphis. UCF wasn't a part of the league. All in all they were 8-8 vs. those two. They were always in a better recruiting area, in the BE footprint and in a bigger market than those two. Cincinnati bb up to that point was every bit as good as Memphis if not better and ECU wasn't even comparable. They also had a lot of history with the traditional BE football teams over a good period of time. Their academics were superior to ECU and Memphis. They had rivalries with UL who was also added. It wasn't a difficult choice between the three.
Pretty sure both UL and Cincy were both teir 4 until they were put in the big east and within a year they were up to a teir 3. Again, money does that.

You do the research. UL and USF, not UC were in tier 4 but moved up around the time of entering the Big East as both made major commitments financially and academically in order to be upgraded and accepted into the league

And getting a BCS tag and money allows teams to do that. That's what I'm getting at. Again, in all sports, those were three average teams before they wre invited into the BigEast. All those teams now have at least had one great season in football. I'm not saying memphis football is to the level UC or UL was when they were in the CUSA.. b/c I don't feel we are. However, I"m just saying the Big East took a huge risk then.. and it worked out WELL. ECU, Memphis, UCF, .. all Add something. ECU- Strong football, improvements in facilities, med school, NC market that is ACC strong. UCF- Largest school in the nation, great facilities, money, large TV market. Memphis- Strong basketball, avg facilities, large tv market, strong corporate support. Memphis goes to a BCS, FedEx and other large supporters dump money into our program to ensure we have what we need ( ... I feel it should happen prior, but we all know that's not happening)
06-19-2010 10:35 PM
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Shannon Panther Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Please tell me why waiting is better than expanding now
I actually think you can make a case to expand now or wait. At the cost of body bag games, inviting 1 school now would actually be a wash financially for the FB schools. Why wait? To complete the feasibility and potential analysis on the network. I know UCF is the hot ticket right now. But what if we add them now and then discover that Memphis or ECU would add more money to the contract or we then discover that UCF doesn't pull any new revenue for the network? Then we have hurt ourselves financially, and risk losing members to higher paying conferences. I think the invitation will come at the end of this FB season. By then the analysis will be done to see if it pays to split and add teams or stay together and add teams and how many to add. All of the leading candidates have faults. Perhaps one or more of them move forward this season and separate themselves from the pack.

My question for you is what do we gain from inviting them now and what do we lose by waiting? Sometimes doing nothing is better than doing something for the sake of it. I am not seeing a compelling reason to expand other than some posters strong desire to do so.
06-19-2010 10:43 PM
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buckaineer Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Please tell me why waiting is better than expanding now
(06-19-2010 10:35 PM)adluther Wrote:  
(06-19-2010 10:26 PM)buckaineer Wrote:  
(06-19-2010 10:24 PM)adluther Wrote:  
(06-19-2010 10:20 PM)buckaineer Wrote:  
(06-19-2010 10:05 PM)adluther Wrote:  
(06-19-2010 06:32 PM)miko33 Wrote:  I'll give you a few reasons...

1) Adding the 2 - 4 teams you want to add (from the group of ECU, UCF, Temple, Memphis, Southern Miss, other CUSA teams???) will weaken the BE both literally and perception wise. Any of these teams will be in the bottom portion of the league from the start, and none of these schools would be respected by the other BCS conferences.

2) These schools are being invited on potential only. There is no guarantee that these schools will become the instant successes that UL had for a short period of time, or be able to make some of the big splashes that USF has made on occasion until their Nov collapses. There is probably a realistic statistical analysis that could be completed to determine the likely success of each candidate school. Out of all of them UCF is probably the only realistic team that MAY significantly improve.

3) Another factor to consider is that the face of the conference would be forever changed, and the football power would be gone from the original remaining BE teams into the new BE teams (the CUSA block). I don't think that Pitt, Syracuse, Rutgers or WVU would like to see the CUSA invites be able to outvote the established programs on policy.

I think another way is needed to greatly improve the BE. The BE needs to develop the network first, leverage the large DMAs that are within the BB schools regions and the few FB schools that have larger viewing areas. If/when the money rolls in will be when the BE will be able to invite established, quality FB schools to the conference. Until the BEN becomes a reality, staying the course is the best move in my opinion.

Cincy was a mid range C-USA team while they were there. Now they are giving a rear end kicking to you guys. When the right money comes to the right team, ... look what happens.

In the five years prior to them joining the big East Cincinnati was 7-2 vs. ECU and Memphis. UCF wasn't a part of the league. All in all they were 8-8 vs. those two. They were always in a better recruiting area, in the BE footprint and in a bigger market than those two. Cincinnati bb up to that point was every bit as good as Memphis if not better and ECU wasn't even comparable. They also had a lot of history with the traditional BE football teams over a good period of time. Their academics were superior to ECU and Memphis. They had rivalries with UL who was also added. It wasn't a difficult choice between the three.
Pretty sure both UL and Cincy were both teir 4 until they were put in the big east and within a year they were up to a teir 3. Again, money does that.

You do the research. UL and USF, not UC were in tier 4 but moved up around the time of entering the Big East as both made major commitments financially and academically in order to be upgraded and accepted into the league

And getting a BCS tag and money allows teams to do that. That's what I'm getting at. Again, in all sports, those were three average teams before they wre invited into the BigEast. All those teams now have at least had one great season in football. I'm not saying memphis football is to the level UC or UL was when they were in the CUSA.. b/c I don't feel we are. However, I"m just saying the Big East took a huge risk then.. and it worked out WELL. ECU, Memphis, UCF, .. all Add something. ECU- Strong football, improvements in facilities, med school, NC market that is ACC strong. UCF- Largest school in the nation, great facilities, money, large TV market. Memphis- Strong basketball, avg facilities, large tv market, strong corporate support. Memphis goes to a BCS, FedEx and other large supporters dump money into our program to ensure we have what we need ( ... I feel it should happen prior, but we all know that's not happening)

At the time of the last adds, the Big East had to act and act quickly. Very few options existed. Some desired teams didn't want to come as football only invites. UL was a top ten team at the time so not sure why you think they were average. They were at the level of TCU, Utah, or Boise are now. No question add. USF had already beaten BCS programs including in the Big East and was undefeated I believe over ECU in their seasons in CUSA. Sure they performed favorably against Memphis football also. Cincy was 7-2 against those teams since 2000 and had just about everything else going in its favor over those that weren't chosen.
06-19-2010 10:44 PM
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HarborPointe Offline
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Post: #39
RE: Please tell me why waiting is better than expanding now
(06-19-2010 09:32 PM)buckaineer Wrote:  Big East football has NEVER had more than 8 teams.

Excellent point. And it's worked so smoothly and resulted in such big TV contracts over the years, why tinker with it?
06-19-2010 11:17 PM
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miko33 Offline
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RE: Please tell me why waiting is better than expanding now
(06-19-2010 10:43 PM)Shannon Panther Wrote:  I actually think you can make a case to expand now or wait. At the cost of body bag games, inviting 1 school now would actually be a wash financially for the FB schools. Why wait? To complete the feasibility and potential analysis on the network. I know UCF is the hot ticket right now. But what if we add them now and then discover that Memphis or ECU would add more money to the contract or we then discover that UCF doesn't pull any new revenue for the network? Then we have hurt ourselves financially, and risk losing members to higher paying conferences. I think the invitation will come at the end of this FB season. By then the analysis will be done to see if it pays to split and add teams or stay together and add teams and how many to add. All of the leading candidates have faults. Perhaps one or more of them move forward this season and separate themselves from the pack.

My question for you is what do we gain from inviting them now and what do we lose by waiting? Sometimes doing nothing is better than doing something for the sake of it. I am not seeing a compelling reason to expand other than some posters strong desire to do so.

Exactly. There are no obvious incentive to expand right now. If the research by the conference shows that there would be a benefit to adding ECU, UCF, Memphis, etc. to the conference in time for the next contract with ESPN (or whoever), then would be the time to expand. Not before the BE knows for sure the real value of these teams. Also, if the BEN gets off the ground before most of the other conference networks, then the BE may be able to take a predatory role and expand at the expense of another BCS conference. Is it likely to happen? I have no idea, but as long as we have Paul Tagliabue helping the BE develop a conference network and negotiate TV contracts, then we have a very powerful advocate in our corner who may change the fortunes of this conference. Right now, patience is the key.

And, there are a number of teams who appear to want out of the conference, so there is still a distinct possibility that we lose members. Do you want schools who will not be long term members of the conference voting on long term strategies for the league? I wouldn't.
06-19-2010 11:19 PM
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