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Please tell me why waiting is better than expanding now
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Please tell me why waiting is better than expanding now
(06-19-2010 06:20 PM)dgrace4cards Wrote:  Can you guys against expansion of 2-4 teams right now give me a good enough reason to wait on these teams. Don't tell me they will be there later. That is not a strong enough argument.

Please tell me why we shouldn't add them to let them get a chance to strengthen before negotiations have to start with the next tv contract and bowl alignment.

I'd be all in favor of adding 2 or 4 teams, if the teams were say Notre Dame, Oklahoma, Texas A/M, and Missouri. But of course those types of programs - programs that are already BCS-level, aren't available to us.

So if it's a choice between not expanding and adding mouths to feed in the HOPE that by subsidizing them (and that's what the current 8 would be doing, subsidizing them), we'll end up stronger in the long run, well, that sounds like a losing proposition to me. It's more likely to weaken the current 8, who have fought very hard over the past 5 years to claw our way to a measure of BCS respectability on the playing field. But those 8 are right now revenue-deficient compared to other BCS conferences.

In short, i think adding 2-4 weaklings would drag us down before we could lift them up. Pro-expansion types keep saying "well, when we invited USF et al. in 2004, they weren't BCS level but now they have developed in to BCS level programs, so the same would happen with ECU, Memphis, and UCF". But i don't buy that, because the money will be smaller for these new teams than it was for us back in 2004. The Big East was 5 teams expanding to 8, still a small pie. 10-12 reduces the slices significantly.

Plus, the revenue gap between us and the other BCS schools is much larger now than in 2004. Conferences like the Big 10, SEC, and even ACC have taken big leaps forward revenue-wise, while we haven't. I think we need to grow our revenue FIRST, then add more teams.
(This post was last modified: 06-19-2010 08:38 PM by quo vadis.)
06-19-2010 08:30 PM
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JHG722 Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Please tell me why waiting is better than expanding now
(06-19-2010 08:27 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  I was thinking PERHAPS long term value. Nova keeps it in the family, UMass helps get the Boston Market.(would they be able to become the next UConn?)
ARMY and Navy have the prestige ACADEMICALLY and (INTER)National appeal. All are also eastern

Once again, Nova has nowhere to play.

UMass is two hours outside of Boston, and although they obviously have a lot of alums in Boston, they dont have the national appeal/reputation that UConn brought. MA is at the absolute bottom for D-I recruits (11 committed to FBS programs for this year). There simply are not enough D-I players in New England for UMass to be successful. Boston is all about BC for college sports other than hockey, and even for hockey, UMass is behind BU, BC, and most likely Harvard and Northeastern.
06-19-2010 08:35 PM
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gosports1 Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Please tell me why waiting is better than expanding now
(06-19-2010 08:35 PM)JHG722 Wrote:  
(06-19-2010 08:27 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  I was thinking PERHAPS long term value. Nova keeps it in the family, UMass helps get the Boston Market.(would they be able to become the next UConn?)
ARMY and Navy have the prestige ACADEMICALLY and (INTER)National appeal. All are also eastern

Once again, Nova has nowhere to play.

UMass is two hours outside of Boston, and although they obviously have a lot of alums in Boston, they dont have the national appeal/reputation that UConn brought. MA is at the absolute bottom for D-I recruits (11 committed to FBS programs for this year). There simply are not enough D-I players in New England for UMass to be successful. Boston is all about BC for college sports other than hockey, and even for hockey, UMass is behind BU, BC, and most likely Harvard and Northeastern.

Im not hell bent on UMass by any means, but if the BE wanted to help a program develop (like it would in the case of some of the usual suspects) then UMass could change. UConn sucked in BB b4 calhoun and their fb was in the yankee conf with umass. Schools can grow and change. They can recruit I dont expect it to happen but hey what the f?

Villanova may not have a place today but could they have a place down the road when all this came together? I dont mean add these programs tomorrow and the BE is set but long term if committed to upgrading im sure they could work out a deal somewhere.

Temple is also a candidate if they could prove themselves

I dont expect any of this to happen but i m trying to think "outside the box" and think like a college president. Who would you rather be associated with academically? Army and Navy or ECU and Memphis?
06-19-2010 08:53 PM
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JHG722 Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Please tell me why waiting is better than expanding now
(06-19-2010 08:53 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  Villanova may not have a place today but could they have a place down the road when all this came together? I dont mean add these programs tomorrow and the BE is set but long term if committed to upgrading im sure they could work out a deal somewhere.

Temple is also a candidate if they could prove themselves

I dont expect any of this to happen but i m trying to think "outside the box" and think like a college president. Who would you rather be associated with academically? Army and Navy or ECU and Memphis?

There is literally nowhere for Nova to play. Outside of building an $150M stadium 30+ mins. away from campus, they're left to play in their dump. Nova doesn't have anywhere near the money for this anyway.

Obviously a president would rather associate with Army and Navy, but if they're not interested, it's a moot point.
06-19-2010 08:59 PM
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Theodoresdaddy Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Please tell me why waiting is better than expanding now
(06-19-2010 06:48 PM)joep1 Wrote:  It's simple. I don't understand why this is so difficult to grasp -

The BE must add teams from its peer conferences - it must take back from the ACC or the like.

There is no alternative. Perhaps adding one of the often mentioned schools with them is fine, but merely adding a CUSA school etc will not add much value to a tv contract or prevent the BE from getting raided.

So little added value and exactly in the same position in terms of being threatened to be raided.

[/align]

what school that is currently in a BCS conference is going to jump to the BE?

the only choices that we have are schools from non-AQ conferences

I don't like it any better than the rest of you all but it's the truth

the BE took a chance with L'ville, Cincinnati and USF and that turned out pretty good
06-19-2010 09:29 PM
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buckaineer Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Please tell me why waiting is better than expanding now
(06-19-2010 06:20 PM)dgrace4cards Wrote:  Can you guys against expansion of 2-4 teams right now give me a good enough reason to wait on these teams. Don't tell me they will be there later. That is not a strong enough argument.

Please tell me why we shouldn't add them to let them get a chance to strengthen before negotiations have to start with the next tv contract and bowl alignment.

Please tell me you've got something better than hurting bball programs feelings and disrupting the 8/8 hybrid setup.

I feel like Jack Nicholson here sitting in Cuba....yet have the answers and gumption of Cruise in the court room.


Wait on these teams for what exactly? Why do you think the Big East needs to expand? What is the benefit to the Big East of expanding? What is the benefit of expanding with UCF, ECU, Memphis and Temple or someone?

You are acting like the Big East is going to collapse if it doesn't add someone. You are acting like the tv contracts will not work if they don't add someone. You have the mixed up belief that the Big East is solely stuck on 3 or 4 schools to add because posters from another league are telling you this. You are ignoring many things.

The Big East does NOT need to expand to improve on the successes it has had. The league is NOW working on developing a tv network that will improve the league financially in a dramatic way. The league is also working on boosting the football and basketball pay for existing members when the broadcast contracts can be renegotiated.

Big East football has NEVER had more than 8 teams. It might be ok to have another, but it isn't such a critical issue that the league is going to hurt itself just to add someone. They would add someone instantly if it benefits the league members. They nearly hit the jackpot last week with Big XII teams. That went away, and so did any legitimate candidates for expansion at the moment.

If the league needs to replace someone, they will likely exhaust their BCS options--showing them what they can be with a BEN on the air in 25% or more of the nation. If that doesn't pan out and there is a reason, they will add what studies have shown is the best possible candidate for them.

They certainly won't add anyone out of panic--this would not help anything. At this point either the Big East will maintain and exist, or teams will leave and football will die. I find it interesting some of the new members are panicking about having to move backwards, but you want the league to add those same teams, which will cause you school to be in less than a BCS conference with diminished bb to boot.
06-19-2010 09:32 PM
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insertcoolnamehere Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Please tell me why waiting is better than expanding now
(06-19-2010 07:21 PM)dgrace4cards Wrote:  
(06-19-2010 06:32 PM)miko33 Wrote:  I'll give you a few reasons...

1) Adding the 2 - 4 teams you want to add (from the group of ECU, UCF, Temple, Memphis, Southern Miss, other CUSA teams???) will weaken the BE both literally and perception wise. Any of these teams will be in the bottom portion of the league from the start, and none of these schools would be respected by the other BCS conferences.
So when we have to expand, and these are the teams that are available are you not taking the chance right now that they improve their profile between now and then? Why not just do it now and stimulate their growth with the BCS tag.

2) These schools are being invited on potential only. There is no guarantee that these schools will become the instant successes that UL had for a short period of time, or be able to make some of the big splashes that USF has made on occasion until their Nov collapses. There is probably a realistic statistical analysis that could be completed to determine the likely success of each candidate school. Out of all of them UCF is probably the only realistic team that MAY significantly improve.
Who do you expect to get if you aren't interested in these teams, because we are going off of potential and thats not good enough? The Big 12 aint exploding leaving KU and the gang available. If the SEC grabs some ACC, the ACC will be grabbing some BE....not the other way around.

3) Another factor to consider is that the face of the conference would be forever changed, and the football power would be gone from the original remaining BE teams into the new BE teams (the CUSA block). I don't think that Pitt, Syracuse, Rutgers or WVU would like to see the CUSA invites be able to outvote the established programs on policy.
So there is a top shelf and bottome shelf in the league....NICE! I'm glad we know where we sit now.

I think another way is needed to greatly improve the BE. The BE needs to develop the network first, leverage the large DMAs that are within the BB schools regions and the few FB schools that have larger viewing areas. If/when the money rolls in will be when the BE will be able to invite established, quality FB schools to the conference. Until the BEN becomes a reality, staying the course is the best move in my opinion.

[b]You are getting Fed Ex Sponshorship, 4 new markets (3 urban), and success in both football, baseball, and basketball on the whole taking the four usual suspects.[/b]

I mean really guys, I've learned more there is an old guard and new guard, a certain set of programs/fans that would rather wait for lotto ticket of BCS programs to come to the BE, and the common business exercise of invest in a product based on your ROI is not a practice to use in the league.

04-cheers04-cheers04-cheers
06-19-2010 09:36 PM
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ohio1317 Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Please tell me why waiting is better than expanding now
I think it is safe to say that nobody adds more to the total pot than they would take now or else expansion would have already happened (unless that has only recently changed). Over the next 10 years:

1. The Big East very well might NOT be raided. Yes it's quite possible that it loses someone, but it is far from inconceivable that the Big 12 can hang together, Notre Dame remains a football independent, and no other two teams add enough to the Big Ten coffers to justify expansion. If that happens, then inviting someone new is quite possibly not a good idea. It splits the football TV contract money and BCS money more, it threatens the relationship with the non-football schools (and at least for the moment, Big East basketball is a lot more than the sum of its 2 parts), reduces the likelihood of each school going to the BCS (and thus hurts recruiting and growing fan interest) and it isn't guaranteed to have high payoffs. This isn't to say expansion is certainly a bad idea (the right combination might work), but if I'm a president, I want a lot more than the possibility of a slightly improved league to go vote for expansion.

2. The Big East is raided: If the Big East is going to be raided, expansion beforehand could be a good or a bad thing. On the one hand, it does get a school into the Big East and help them move up before the raid. It also leads to less panic afterward. On the other hand, revenue is likely to be reduced in the final years before the raid as another mouth or two is there to feed. Also, if the conference is worse because of the add-on (even if just temporarily) it's easier to mount a raid against its BCS status.

So to sum up: There are arguments that can go both ways whether the Big East is raided again or not. In the absence of an expansion argument being the far more compelling than the alternative, it's unlikely to be adopted because there is no going back. New projections could change that in a hurry, but it will have to be a change from the last couple of years.
06-19-2010 09:38 PM
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Post: #29
RE: Please tell me why waiting is better than expanding now
(06-19-2010 09:32 PM)buckaineer Wrote:  
(06-19-2010 06:20 PM)dgrace4cards Wrote:  Can you guys against expansion of 2-4 teams right now give me a good enough reason to wait on these teams. Don't tell me they will be there later. That is not a strong enough argument.

Please tell me why we shouldn't add them to let them get a chance to strengthen before negotiations have to start with the next tv contract and bowl alignment.

Please tell me you've got something better than hurting bball programs feelings and disrupting the 8/8 hybrid setup.

I feel like Jack Nicholson here sitting in Cuba....yet have the answers and gumption of Cruise in the court room.


Wait on these teams for what exactly? Why do you think the Big East needs to expand? What is the benefit to the Big East of expanding? What is the benefit of expanding with UCF, ECU, Memphis and Temple or someone?

You are acting like the Big East is going to collapse if it doesn't add someone. You are acting like the tv contracts will not work if they don't add someone. You have the mixed up belief that the Big East is solely stuck on 3 or 4 schools to add because posters from another league are telling you this. You are ignoring many things.

The Big East does NOT need to expand to improve on the successes it has had. The league is NOW working on developing a tv network that will improve the league financially in a dramatic way. The league is also working on boosting the football and basketball pay for existing members when the broadcast contracts can be renegotiated.

Big East football has NEVER had more than 8 teams. It might be ok to have another, but it isn't such a critical issue that the league is going to hurt itself just to add someone. They would add someone instantly if it benefits the league members. They nearly hit the jackpot last week with Big XII teams. That went away, and so did any legitimate candidates for expansion at the moment.

If the league needs to replace someone, they will likely exhaust their BCS options--showing them what they can be with a BEN on the air in 25% or more of the nation. If that doesn't pan out and there is a reason, they will add what studies have shown is the best possible candidate for them.

They certainly won't add anyone out of panic--this would not help anything. At this point either the Big East will maintain and exist, or teams will leave and football will die. I find it interesting some of the new members are panicking about having to move backwards, but you want the league to add those same teams, which will cause you school to be in less than a BCS conference with diminished bb to boot.


Duely noted for when the Big 10 comes to get 1-3 teams from us in a year.
06-19-2010 09:41 PM
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buckaineer Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Please tell me why waiting is better than expanding now
(06-19-2010 09:41 PM)dgrace4cards Wrote:  
(06-19-2010 09:32 PM)buckaineer Wrote:  
(06-19-2010 06:20 PM)dgrace4cards Wrote:  Can you guys against expansion of 2-4 teams right now give me a good enough reason to wait on these teams. Don't tell me they will be there later. That is not a strong enough argument.

Please tell me why we shouldn't add them to let them get a chance to strengthen before negotiations have to start with the next tv contract and bowl alignment.

Please tell me you've got something better than hurting bball programs feelings and disrupting the 8/8 hybrid setup.

I feel like Jack Nicholson here sitting in Cuba....yet have the answers and gumption of Cruise in the court room.


Wait on these teams for what exactly? Why do you think the Big East needs to expand? What is the benefit to the Big East of expanding? What is the benefit of expanding with UCF, ECU, Memphis and Temple or someone?

You are acting like the Big East is going to collapse if it doesn't add someone. You are acting like the tv contracts will not work if they don't add someone. You have the mixed up belief that the Big East is solely stuck on 3 or 4 schools to add because posters from another league are telling you this. You are ignoring many things.

The Big East does NOT need to expand to improve on the successes it has had. The league is NOW working on developing a tv network that will improve the league financially in a dramatic way. The league is also working on boosting the football and basketball pay for existing members when the broadcast contracts can be renegotiated.

Big East football has NEVER had more than 8 teams. It might be ok to have another, but it isn't such a critical issue that the league is going to hurt itself just to add someone. They would add someone instantly if it benefits the league members. They nearly hit the jackpot last week with Big XII teams. That went away, and so did any legitimate candidates for expansion at the moment.

If the league needs to replace someone, they will likely exhaust their BCS options--showing them what they can be with a BEN on the air in 25% or more of the nation. If that doesn't pan out and there is a reason, they will add what studies have shown is the best possible candidate for them.

They certainly won't add anyone out of panic--this would not help anything. At this point either the Big East will maintain and exist, or teams will leave and football will die. I find it interesting some of the new members are panicking about having to move backwards, but you want the league to add those same teams, which will cause you school to be in less than a BCS conference with diminished bb to boot.


Duely noted for when the Big 10 comes to get 1-3 teams from us in a year.

Are you saying you think adding ECU, Memphis, UCF and another would either
A)Stop the Big Ten from coming for BE members if they decide to?
B)Stop the BE members approached by the Big Ten from leaving if asked?

Any Big East team asked to go to these other leagues, except possibly the ACC will be gone as quickly as they can pack, unless the renegotiation of the tv contracts has taken place and a creation of a BEN has been established and is up and running--increasing BE revenues to that of other leagues.

If perhaps even ONE BE team leaves, the football conference is dead. Adding any number of CUSA teams at that point isn't going to save it, bring it money, bring it anything but scorn from the other BCS leagues, etc.

You shouldn't be too concerned because you'll be able to rejoin the league you are so eager to be a part of again. Or you and whoever else can break off and start a new eastern CUSA with all of these teams. Either way you get the same--CUSA without a BCS bid or strong basketball.
(This post was last modified: 06-19-2010 09:50 PM by buckaineer.)
06-19-2010 09:48 PM
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