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Redoing Realignment: Big East with Boise St. and SDSU
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megadrone Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Redoing Realignment: Big East with Boise St. and SDSU
(07-08-2017 08:37 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(07-07-2017 04:34 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(07-07-2017 04:24 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(07-07-2017 04:04 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  If those two stayed with the Big East/AAC, I'd assume AQ or power status remained, as well. So, the bloc remains a P6 structure.

You probably get AFA and BYU eventually in the AAC.

MWC at that point is CUSA-west. The merger moves forward, and the only thing causing any swaps within CUSA is whether UTEP, Rice, and Tulsa want to send their kids west to play sports or east.

As a tangent, I've wondered about ACC taking on non-fb schools when so many Big East members applied to the ACC after the Pitt-Cuse shocker. Specifically, if the conference took Villanova and/or Marquette.

From what I recall, Georgetown, St. Johns and Villanova all were talked about as potential non-football members in the ACC. I don't think Providence or Seton Hall were. I know that DePaul and Marquette were most certainly not. In the end, the money clearly was not enough for any member of the C7 to get invited (or accept an invite) to the ACC, nor did any of the C7 wish to continue to be a passenger on the football bus once again.

Were Georgetown, St Johns and Nova actively trying to get into the ACC as non-football members? All 3 play FCS football correct? Would they have tried to move football into the ACC like Villanova almost did in the Big East?

Villanova applied during that panic post-Pitt and Cuse. When they closed the book of FBS in 2013, they said they saw themselves aligned with ACC schools and that was no longer a possibility.

I think, if that also happened to the Big East, especially if the duo of Nova and GTown were plucked, does the split even happen? What happens with a C5? I think the conference beefs up on hoops and the rocky union remains for a bit. BB schools, and if so, who?

There are a lot of ifs here.

If the Big East retained Boise and San Diego, if the BCS stayed together, if the AQ stayed with the Big East, if Rutgers and Louisville don't leave, etc.

If the BCS still changes to the playoff, that would have done in the Big East. Then Boise and SDSU look to leave. IF (and this is huge assumption) the Big 10 doesn't invite Maryland and Rutgers, perhaps its still enough to keep the conference together.

What would it look like?

Full Membership:

Providence
St. John's
Seton Hall
Villanova (FCS football)
Georgetown (FCS football)
Marquette
De Paul
Connecticut
Rutgers
Temple
Cincinnati
Louisville
Memphis
Central Florida
South Florida
Houston
SMU

Football Only:
Navy
ECU

It's still an unwieldy 17 team conference. Maybe this could have stayed together, but the TV contract isn't what it needs to be. I'd ask the Big East fans on the board to comment here.

But as bad as Rutgers has been in basketball, replacing them and Louisville with Tulane and ECU for full membership still would have broken the camels back. I think the change from the BCS to the CFP was inevitable, and Boise and San Diego State would not have been members for long. I also think Notre Dame leaves for the ACC no matter what, once Syracuse and Pitt leave.

The Big 10 inviting Maryland and Rutgers would truly have been the straw that broke the camels back, although as was reported earlier in the thread, the C7 was planning the break from the time Syracuse and Pitt left.

Just my opinion and I don't have anything to back it up. I wouldn't expect the C7 to even stay in this configuration tbh, but there's a chance they might.
07-08-2017 10:22 AM
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GoldenWarrior11 Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Redoing Realignment: Big East with Boise St. and SDSU
(07-08-2017 10:22 AM)megadrone Wrote:  
(07-08-2017 08:37 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(07-07-2017 04:34 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(07-07-2017 04:24 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(07-07-2017 04:04 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  If those two stayed with the Big East/AAC, I'd assume AQ or power status remained, as well. So, the bloc remains a P6 structure.

You probably get AFA and BYU eventually in the AAC.

MWC at that point is CUSA-west. The merger moves forward, and the only thing causing any swaps within CUSA is whether UTEP, Rice, and Tulsa want to send their kids west to play sports or east.

As a tangent, I've wondered about ACC taking on non-fb schools when so many Big East members applied to the ACC after the Pitt-Cuse shocker. Specifically, if the conference took Villanova and/or Marquette.

From what I recall, Georgetown, St. Johns and Villanova all were talked about as potential non-football members in the ACC. I don't think Providence or Seton Hall were. I know that DePaul and Marquette were most certainly not. In the end, the money clearly was not enough for any member of the C7 to get invited (or accept an invite) to the ACC, nor did any of the C7 wish to continue to be a passenger on the football bus once again.

Were Georgetown, St Johns and Nova actively trying to get into the ACC as non-football members? All 3 play FCS football correct? Would they have tried to move football into the ACC like Villanova almost did in the Big East?

Villanova applied during that panic post-Pitt and Cuse. When they closed the book of FBS in 2013, they said they saw themselves aligned with ACC schools and that was no longer a possibility.

I think, if that also happened to the Big East, especially if the duo of Nova and GTown were plucked, does the split even happen? What happens with a C5? I think the conference beefs up on hoops and the rocky union remains for a bit. BB schools, and if so, who?

There are a lot of ifs here.

If the Big East retained Boise and San Diego, if the BCS stayed together, if the AQ stayed with the Big East, if Rutgers and Louisville don't leave, etc.

If the BCS still changes to the playoff, that would have done in the Big East. Then Boise and SDSU look to leave. IF (and this is huge assumption) the Big 10 doesn't invite Maryland and Rutgers, perhaps its still enough to keep the conference together.

What would it look like?

Full Membership:

Providence
St. John's
Seton Hall
Villanova (FCS football)
Georgetown (FCS football)
Marquette
De Paul
Connecticut
Rutgers
Temple
Cincinnati
Louisville
Memphis
Central Florida
South Florida
Houston
SMU

Football Only:
Navy
ECU

It's still an unwieldy 17 team conference. Maybe this could have stayed together, but the TV contract isn't what it needs to be. I'd ask the Big East fans on the board to comment here.

But as bad as Rutgers has been in basketball, replacing them and Louisville with Tulane and ECU for full membership still would have broken the camels back. I think the change from the BCS to the CFP was inevitable, and Boise and San Diego State would not have been members for long. I also think Notre Dame leaves for the ACC no matter what, once Syracuse and Pitt leave.

The Big 10 inviting Maryland and Rutgers would truly have been the straw that broke the camels back, although as was reported earlier in the thread, the C7 was planning the break from the time Syracuse and Pitt left.

Just my opinion and I don't have anything to back it up. I wouldn't expect the C7 to even stay in this configuration tbh, but there's a chance they might.

I don't that keeps things together. The money still would not have been there. Basketball wise, we were swapping out Syracuse, Pittsburgh, Notre Dame and West Virginia for Memphis, Houston, SMU, Temple and UCF. There's no way that ESPN would have given the basketball teams more (or even the same amount of) money.

The Maryland/Rutgers/Louisville moves were what turned separation discussions into actions.
07-08-2017 11:06 AM
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Stugray2 Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Redoing Realignment: Big East with Boise St. and SDSU
MWC would have stayed at 10. WIthin a few years we'd have added Rice and UTEP

Texas State has never been on the MWC radar. North Texas is ahead of them. Idaho was also never under consideration.

New Mexico State was actually considered for a 13th (12th in Basketball), but Barbara Coulture made such a mess of the presentation that she pretty much killed that possibility maybe forever.
07-08-2017 11:16 AM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Redoing Realignment: Big East with Boise St. and SDSU
(07-07-2017 04:04 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  If those two stayed with the Big East/AAC, I'd assume AQ or power status remained, as well. So, the bloc remains a P6 structure.

You probably get AFA and BYU eventually in the AAC.

MWC at that point is CUSA-west. The merger moves forward, and the only thing causing any swaps within CUSA is whether UTEP, Rice, and Tulsa want to send their kids west to play sports or east.

As a tangent, I've wondered about ACC taking on non-fb schools when so many Big East members applied to the ACC after the Pitt-Cuse shocker. Specifically, if the conference took Villanova and/or Marquette.

I don't believe that the Big East would have retained power status, with or without the addition of these two schools. And I don't think that their addition would have prevented the breakup of the BE or the defection of some of its members to conferences in the "High Resource" group.

Because of that, I don't believe either Boise or SDSU would have stayed in the AAC once the CFP was established.
07-08-2017 01:38 PM
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billybobby777 Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Redoing Realignment: Big East with Boise St. and SDSU
(07-08-2017 11:16 AM)Stugray2 Wrote:  MWC would have stayed at 10. WIthin a few years we'd have added Rice and UTEP

Texas State has never been on the MWC radar. North Texas is ahead of them. Idaho was also never under consideration.

New Mexico State was actually considered for a 13th (12th in Basketball), but Barbara Coulture made such a mess of the presentation that she pretty much killed that possibility maybe forever.

The MWC wasn't going to take NMSU. In fact, they were dismissed early on when the MWC commish said something like, "UNM did push for NMSU to gain entrance, but we aren't interested at this time"...that sort of statement says a lot. I also doubt UNM wanted NMSU in the their conference. UNM and UTEP have been blocking NMSU for 50 years. I suppose DavidSt can tell us about the Border Conference days when they were all one big happy family in the 40's and 50's.
07-08-2017 03:40 PM
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CougarRed Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Redoing Realignment: Big East with Boise St. and SDSU
(07-07-2017 05:00 PM)YNot Wrote:  So, it's not too late...

FOOTBALL
- UConn, Temple, Cincy, ECU, UCF, USF, Memphis, Tulane
- Houston, SMU, Tulsa, Navy, Boise St., SDSU, AFA, UNLV/CSU

OLYMPIC SPORTS
- UConn, Temple, Cincy, ECU, UCF, USF, Memphis, Tulane, VCU
- Houston, SMU, Tulsa, Wichita, Boise St., SDSU, AFA, UNLV/CSU, BYU

First, Aresco is on record that the only schools that we have showed any interest in are BYU, Air Force and Army.

Second, I can't ever see Aresco or the American raiding another conference to the point where it had to expand to survive. The MWC has 11 all-sport members. You need 8 to have a conference. So I can't ever see the American taking more than 3 MWC teams.

And I can't see Aresco "raiding" to begin with. He would, however, consider MWC schools if they approached him.

Based on academics, fan support, overall program success, geographics and/or football tradition/TV appeal, here are the MWC schools that Aresco would never consider:

UNLV
Nevada
San Jose
Fresno St
Utah St
Hawaii

The other 6 schools would have a chance, and that's being charitable to Wyoming.

However, I still think nothing happens until the Big 12's future is resolved UNLESS the next MWC TV deal is peanuts compared to the American.
07-08-2017 07:57 PM
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panite Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Redoing Realignment: Big East with Boise St. and SDSU
(07-07-2017 05:00 PM)YNot Wrote:  So, it's not too late...

FOOTBALL
- UConn, Temple, Cincy, ECU, UCF, USF, Memphis, Tulane
- Houston, SMU, Tulsa, Navy, Boise St., SDSU, AFA, UNLV/CSU

OLYMPIC SPORTS
- UConn, Temple, Cincy, ECU, UCF, USF, Memphis, Tulane, VCU
- Houston, SMU, Tulsa, Wichita, Boise St., SDSU, AFA, UNLV/CSU, BYU

If you want Air Force you need to take CSU.
07-09-2017 06:14 AM
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CougarRed Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Redoing Realignment: Big East with Boise St. and SDSU
Right. This might work if Air Force and Colo St approached us.

FOOTBALL - 14
- UConn, Temple, Cincy, ECU, UCF, USF, Memphis
- Houston, SMU, Tulsa, Tulane, Navy, Air Force, Colo St

OLYMPIC SPORTS - 16
- UConn, Temple, Cincy, ECU, UCF, USF, Memphis, VCU
- Houston, SMU, Tulsa, Tulane, Air Force, Colo St, BYU, Wichita St.
(This post was last modified: 07-09-2017 06:31 AM by CougarRed.)
07-09-2017 06:29 AM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Redoing Realignment: Big East with Boise St. and SDSU
(07-09-2017 06:29 AM)CougarRed Wrote:  Right. This might work if Air Force and Colo St approached us.

FOOTBALL - 14
- UConn, Temple, Cincy, ECU, UCF, USF, Memphis
- Houston, SMU, Tulsa, Tulane, Navy, Air Force, Colo St

OLYMPIC SPORTS - 16
- UConn, Temple, Cincy, ECU, UCF, USF, Memphis, VCU
- Houston, SMU, Tulsa, Tulane, Air Force, Colo St, BYU, Wichita St.


UConn. really wants a travel partner for all sports. UConn. wants UMass. to be added. If Big 12 does raid AAC? Old Dominion and Southern Miss. are also on their list as replacements. Houston, UCF, USF, Cincinnati and Memphis all could go to the Big 12. Might have to look at other schools to be added as a backup plan.
I do think UMass will hold tight as an Independent until AAC invites them.
07-09-2017 07:22 AM
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panite Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Redoing Realignment: Big East with Boise St. and SDSU
(07-09-2017 06:29 AM)CougarRed Wrote:  Right. This might work if Air Force and Colo St approached us.

FOOTBALL - 14
- UConn, Temple, Cincy, ECU, UCF, USF, Memphis
- Houston, SMU, Tulsa, Tulane, Navy, Air Force, Colo St

OLYMPIC SPORTS - 16
- UConn, Temple, Cincy, ECU, UCF, USF, Memphis, VCU
- Houston, SMU, Tulsa, Tulane, Air Force, Colo St, BYU, Wichita St.

BYU all sports or nothing. If they say no VCU is out for Olympic Sports. If they say yes then go after Army for FB only in the West and place Tulane in the East for FB to balance the 16 team FB league. Personally I believe 16 is too large for the AAC with to many mouths to feed even with an increase in TV revenue however it would greatly distance the AAC as a tweener conference between the other G5 and P5 conferences if this did happen.
(This post was last modified: 07-09-2017 07:28 AM by panite.)
07-09-2017 07:25 AM
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panite Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Redoing Realignment: Big East with Boise St. and SDSU
(07-07-2017 05:29 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  For the 2013 football season:

AAC (*football only)
West - San Diego State*, Fresno State*, Boise State*, BYU*, Air Force*, SMU, Houston
East - UConn, USF, Cincinnati, Temple, Louisville, Rutgers, Memphis

Mountain West
Western - San Jose State, Hawaii*, UNLV, Nevada, Idaho, Utah State
Mountain - Colorado State, Wyoming, New Mexico, New Mexico State, UTSA, Texas State

C-USA
West - Tulane, Tulsa, Rice, UTEP, North Texas, Louisiana Tech
East - Southern Miss, UAB, FAU, FIU, ECU, Marshall

Sun Belt
Arkansas State, Louisiana, ULM, USA, Troy, WKU, MTSU, Georgia State

MAC
East - Buffalo, Kent, Akron, Ohio, Miami, BGSU, UMass*
West - NIU, Ball State, WMU, CMU, EMU, Toledo

WAC (non-football)
SMU, Houston, San Diego State, Fresno State, Seattle, Boise State, BYU, Denver

You were never going to hang on to Rutgers and L'Ville. If the ACC took UConn to back fill the Maryland defection spot, L'Ville would have been off to the B-12 with either BYU or Cinn. 07-coffee3 04-cheers
07-09-2017 07:38 AM
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chargeradio Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Redoing Realignment: Big East with Boise St. and SDSU
(07-09-2017 07:38 AM)panite Wrote:  You were never going to hang on to Rutgers and L'Ville. If the ACC took UConn to back fill the Maryland defection spot, L'Ville would have been off to the B-12 with either BYU or Cinn. 07-coffee3 04-cheers
Well, Louisville and Rutgers did play the 2013 season in the American. Given that the ACC didn't take and still hasn't taken UConn, I don't see how a Coast-to-Coast Big East/AAC would have improved the odds of UConn getting an ACC invitation.

Other than that, I agree with you.
07-09-2017 09:19 AM
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CougarRed Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Redoing Realignment: Big East with Boise St. and SDSU
I don't know who said UMass, but they've never had more than about $3M in fan support (ticket sales + donations) in any season.

Most American and MWC schools have more than $10M.

Further, the UMass football stadium, football attendance and football tradition situations are terrible. There's no way the American invites them unless the American gets raided and is desperate for replacements.
(This post was last modified: 07-09-2017 10:03 AM by CougarRed.)
07-09-2017 09:59 AM
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panite Offline
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RE: Redoing Realignment: Big East with Boise St. and SDSU
(07-09-2017 09:19 AM)chargeradio Wrote:  
(07-09-2017 07:38 AM)panite Wrote:  You were never going to hang on to Rutgers and L'Ville. If the ACC took UConn to back fill the Maryland defection spot, L'Ville would have been off to the B-12 with either BYU or Cinn. 07-coffee3 04-cheers
Well, Louisville and Rutgers did play the 2013 season in the American. Given that the ACC didn't take and still hasn't taken UConn, I don't see how a Coast-to-Coast Big East/AAC would have improved the odds of UConn getting an ACC invitation.

Other than that, I agree with you.

Rutgers and L'Ville only played in the AAC for one year to avoid higher penalties to leave. The B-10 was waiting for Maryland to work out its exit too. Once the Maryland exit was worked out, Rutgers and Maryland headed to the B-10 getting the B-10 into the Mid Atlantic TV market in NYC, NJ, Maryland, and Washington DC. That cemented the a piece of that TV market with Penn State. ND and their east coast following, Pitt, BC, and Syracuse took their TV portion and viewership to the ACC which covers the East Coast now from Florida to Boston and Upstate NY. It also off set the move of the ND Midwest viewership and following that went to the ACC. L'Ville just happened to get the golden parachute out of the AAC over UCONN at the time for whatever reasons or animosities that were present at the time. Had L'Ville lost out to UCONN they would have been off and running to the B-12 with Boren and Oklahoma's backing and blessing. As stated above the AAC was never going to hang on to Rutgers's and L'Ville, and it was probably lucky to hold on to UCONN and CINN at the time of the last realignment too. 07-coffee3 04-cheers
(This post was last modified: 07-09-2017 12:16 PM by panite.)
07-09-2017 12:03 PM
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panite Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Redoing Realignment: Big East with Boise St. and SDSU
(07-09-2017 09:59 AM)CougarRed Wrote:  I don't know who said UMass, but they've never had more than about $3M in fan support (ticket sales + donations) in any season.

Most American and MWC schools have more than $10M.

Further, the UMass football stadium, football attendance and football tradition situations are terrible. There's no way the American invites them unless the American gets raided and is desperate for replacements.

UMASS was mentioned as a member of the MAC which they were for FB only at the time. They might still be there if they had gone all in for all sports so the MAC could expand with another all sports school to go to 14 and further East Coast exposure. They refused to bring all of their other sports over from the A-10 so they were kicked out at the end of the FB only contract. UMASS is light years away from an AAC invite because of their current facilities but might be considered for all sports and a travel partner for Temple if the AAC is decimated in the next stage of realignment, if and when realignment happens again. 07-coffee3 04-cheers
07-09-2017 12:13 PM
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Post: #36
RE: Redoing Realignment: Big East with Boise St. and SDSU
I've always been under the assumption that the actual reason Boise (and thus SDSU) backed out of the Big East football-only deal was because it became known that the Big East was no longer going to be in the top tier of payouts for the next iteration of the BCS (later name changed to CFP).

In other words, if the Big East champion was no longer going to have an auto bid to a BCS bowl, and the Big East wasn't going to be paid like a top tier conference ...... what would be the point of making a lateral move for increased travel?


NOT that the MWC made some big power play to reel Boise (and thus SDSU) back in.


Is that wrong?
(This post was last modified: 07-09-2017 12:52 PM by MplsBison.)
07-09-2017 12:52 PM
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Post: #37
RE: Redoing Realignment: Big East with Boise St. and SDSU
(07-09-2017 12:52 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  I've always been under the assumption that the actual reason Boise (and thus SDSU) backed out of the Big East football-only deal was because it became known that the Big East was no longer going to be in the top tier of payouts for the next iteration of the BCS (later name changed to CFP).

In other words, if the Big East champion was no longer going to have an auto bid to a BCS bowl, and the Big East wasn't going to be paid like a top tier conference ...... what would be the point of making a lateral move for increased travel?


NOT that the MWC made some big power play to reel Boise (and thus SDSU) back in.


Is that wrong?

That sounds familiar and it makes sense. I would love to be in the American because its better top to bottom but it is silly to do that financially and on the non-football student-athletes.
07-09-2017 02:14 PM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Redoing Realignment: Big East with Boise St. and SDSU
The non football teams would've switched from Mountain West to Big West for both Boise and SDSU, with Boise paying a travel subsidy, if I recall correctly.
07-09-2017 03:16 PM
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panite Offline
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Post: #39
RE: Redoing Realignment: Big East with Boise St. and SDSU
(07-09-2017 03:16 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  The non football teams would've switched from Mountain West to Big West for both Boise and SDSU, with Boise paying a travel subsidy, if I recall correctly.

Yes your right. 04-cheers
07-09-2017 07:15 PM
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gosports1 Offline
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Post: #40
RE: Redoing Realignment: Big East with Boise St. and SDSU
part of the reason the c7 split was they were concerned that UConn and Cincy would be gone and the "BE" would have a bunch of FB schools in the south that the c7 had little history with (and have no voice, being the minority)
07-09-2017 07:53 PM
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