What's wrong WVU fans? Tired of getting your butts kicked?

(12-31-2013 01:49 PM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  What's wrong WVU fans? Tired of getting your butts kicked?

Yep and you are getting ready to get yours too.

I somewhat recall a beer truck once.....remember that?

I don't know. I could always use a good @ss kickin'.

(12-30-2013 08:17 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(12-30-2013 08:01 PM)Tigeer Wrote:  

(12-30-2013 07:57 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Facilities is the order of the day.

Academics too, I guess, but personally I think that the perception of WVU is not reality.

WVU's academics are fine. The main thing that would increase WVU's academic standard would be to increase the entrance requirements, which aren't very strict, due to the mission that WVU performs for the State of West Virginia. If WVU could be more selective about who comes to WVU, their academic standard would rise considerably. But that doesn't suit WVU's mission for the state.

WVa does indeed have a "mission problem". They share this "problem" with Kentucky and Louisville however the main academic issue that give the ACC pause are at the Presidential/Board/State Political level with WVa. The perception of direct political interference with academics at WVa by State of West Va. political actors. Of course some of this is hypocrisy considering the shenanigans that have gone on at Chapel Hill over the past 20 years.

For those that wonder, Maryland and Duke kept West Va out of the ACC when it left the SoCon in 1953. Maryland never wanted WVa in the SoCon when they were admitted in 1950. Then WVa sided with VT on the bowl ban. Maryland's exit from the ACC takes away a one blackball although Duke and UVa are still no votes.

Any chance for WVa in the ACC in the future hinges on turning the votes of three of Pitt, VT, UNC, and NC State combined with some other additions that would make the structure of the league acceptable.

There's no scenario that I see that puts WVa in the ACC at number 16, however if leagues go past 16, I think WVa will have a shot but they need to not have any high profile academic scandals in the lead up to a vote.

Perhaps what WVa could do is attempt the Emory solution - Emory has it's main campus in Atlanta, but a satellite, 2 year campus in Oxford, Ga. While those that start in Oxford eventually get an Emory degree, Oxford is smaller and less intense. Such an academy associated with WVa might be structured in such a way to bifurcate the direct admission to WVa and start the less academically accomplished kids in something like West Va University Academy - a two year program that leads to a direct transfer into WVa.

Just a thought.

WVa also needs to limit visual coverage of burning couches and overly rowdy fans.

(12-31-2013 06:03 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  

(12-30-2013 08:17 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(12-30-2013 08:01 PM)Tigeer Wrote:  

(12-30-2013 07:57 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Facilities is the order of the day.

Academics too, I guess, but personally I think that the perception of WVU is not reality.

WVU's academics are fine. The main thing that would increase WVU's academic standard would be to increase the entrance requirements, which aren't very strict, due to the mission that WVU performs for the State of West Virginia. If WVU could be more selective about who comes to WVU, their academic standard would rise considerably. But that doesn't suit WVU's mission for the state.

WVa does indeed have a "mission problem". They share this "problem" with Kentucky and Louisville however the main academic issue that give the ACC pause are at the Presidential/Board/State Political level with WVa. The perception of direct political interference with academics at WVa by State of West Va. political actors. Of course some of this is hypocrisy considering the shenanigans that have gone on at Chapel Hill over the past 20 years.

For those that wonder, Maryland and Duke kept West Va out of the ACC when it left the SoCon in 1953. Maryland never wanted WVa in the SoCon when they were admitted in 1950. Then WVa sided with VT on the bowl ban. Maryland's exit from the ACC takes away a one blackball although Duke and UVa are still no votes.

Any chance for WVa in the ACC in the future hinges on turning the votes of three of Pitt, VT, UNC, and NC State combined with some other additions that would make the structure of the league acceptable.

There's no scenario that I see that puts WVa in the ACC at number 16, however if leagues go past 16, I think WVa will have a shot but they need to not have any high profile academic scandals in the lead up to a vote.

Perhaps what WVa could do is attempt the Emory solution - Emory has it's main campus in Atlanta, but a satellite, 2 year campus in Oxford, Ga. While those that start in Oxford eventually get an Emory degree, Oxford is smaller and less intense. Such an academy associated with WVa might be structured in such a way to bifurcate the direct admission to WVa and start the less academically accomplished kids in something like West Va University Academy - a two year program that leads to a direct transfer into WVa.

Just a thought.

WVa also needs to limit visual coverage of burning couches and overly rowdy fans.

WVU is no different than any other state university in that respect. All have at one time or another been influenced by politics. The reasons may change, but the motive is exactly the same. I'm not crazy about the level of stupidity some folks at WVU reached in thinking they could get away with awarding a fake degree to please King Joe. But it doesn't surprise me to see people doing something stupid. If you look around closely, you see it happening all the time.

Anyone who blames West Virginia for leaving the American for the Big 12 needs to have his or her head examined. That aspect of this discussion is as big a no-brainer as there is. It's not even worth elaborating on.

That said, I do believe that the dynamics turned out in a way that had the Big 12 chosen Louisville over WVU, the Mountaineers would have been chosen to replace Maryland when the Terps bolted for the B1G a year later. West Virginia's academic profile is very similar to Louisville's and its football history is vastly superior to the Cards' football history. Also, it was pretty clear at that point that the football-centric schools were calling the shots. Just as they held their nose and chose Louisville in spite of its academic shortcomings, they would have done the same for West Virginia. There was too much money on the line for anyone to be too choosy.

Again though, how could Oliver Luck have possibly known that when he was going all out for the Big 12? Nobody saw the B1G's bizarre move of taking Maryland and Rutgers coming at that time.

Where I think the West Virginia and Big 12 folks absolutely CAN be faulted is in how they handled the Big 12's expansion. Also, the B12's leadership HAD to have seen this issue coming from a mile away.

The B12 was desperate and had very few realistic choices at its disposal - especially after talks with BYU broke down. The B12 couldn't have been in a weaker bargaining position. It had lost four members in two years and was literally fighting for its very survival. That is why I believed at the time and still do in retrospect that West Virginia should have partnered with Louisville and Cincinnati and forced the B12 to take all three as a package deal.

Revisionist history? Hardly.

I know for a fact that when Pitt thought it was going to the Big 12, before the ACC stepped in at the eleventh hour, it made a phone call to West Virginia about recruiting either Syracuse, Rutgers or Louisville (depending on whom you believe) to go as a package deal. Pitt feared being a geographic outlier and was trying to insulate itself from that fate.

Unfortunately for Pitt, WVU told them, "Thanks, but no thanks." The Mountaineers thought they were in good position to get an SEC bid and basically told Pitt that they would get back to them after the SEC made its decision. Fortunately for Pitt, shortly thereafter, the ACC stepped in and grabbed Pitt, which ended our interest in the B12's expansion plans. However, I did not understand then - and I still don't understand now - why they didn't just adapt Pitt's plan to their new circumstance? Had they chosen to go that route, I believe that WVU and the B12 would have been better off. Cincinnati too would have been better off. Louisville ended up in a better position by how things worked out and other than Rutgers, nobody came out better off than the Cards.

(12-31-2013 06:36 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  Anyone who blames West Virginia for leaving the American for the Big 12 needs to have his or her head examined. That aspect of this discussion is as big a no-brainer as there is. It's not even worth elaborating on.

That said, I do believe that the dynamics turned out in a way that had the Big 12 chosen Louisville over WVU, the Mountaineers would have been chosen to replace Maryland when the Terps bolted for the B1G a year later. West Virginia's academic profile is very similar to Louisville's and its football history is vastly superior to the Cards' football history. Also, it was pretty clear at that point that the football-centric schools were calling the shots. Just as they held their nose and chose Louisville in spite of its academic shortcomings, they would have done the same for West Virginia. There was too much money on the line for anyone to be too choosy.

Again though, how could Oliver Luck have possibly known that when he was going all out for the Big 12? Nobody saw the B1G's bizarre move of taking Maryland and Rutgers coming at that time.

Where I think the West Virginia and Big 12 folks absolutely CAN be faulted is in how they handled the Big 12's expansion. Also, the B12's leadership HAD to have seen this issue coming from a mile away.

The B12 was desperate and had very few realistic choices at its disposal - especially after talks with BYU broke down. The B12 couldn't have been in a weaker bargaining position. It had lost four members in two years and was literally fighting for its very survival. That is why I believed at the time and still do in retrospect that West Virginia should have partnered with Louisville and Cincinnati and forced the B12 to take all three as a package deal.

Revisionist history? Hardly.

I know for a fact that when Pitt thought it was going to the Big 12, before the ACC stepped in at the eleventh hour, it made a phone call to West Virginia about recruiting either Syracuse, Rutgers or Louisville (depending on whom you believe) to go as a package deal. Pitt feared being a geographic outlier and was trying to insulate itself from that fate.

Unfortunately for Pitt, WVU told them, "Thanks, but no thanks." The Mountaineers thought they were in good position to get an SEC bid and basically told Pitt that they would get back to them after the SEC made its decision. Fortunately for Pitt, shortly thereafter, the ACC stepped in and grabbed Pitt, which ended our interest in the B12's expansion plans. However, I did not understand then - and I still don't understand now - why they didn't just adapt Pitt's plan to their new circumstance? Had they chosen to go that route, I believe that WVU and the B12 would have been better off. Cincinnati too would have been better off. Louisville ended up in a better position by how things worked out and other than Rutgers, nobody came out better off than the Cards.

I wonder if WVa trusted Pitt enough at the time to do anything with Pitt? In fact, I don't know how anyone in the Big East could trust anyone else in the Big East at that time.

(12-31-2013 10:03 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  

(12-31-2013 06:36 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  Anyone who blames West Virginia for leaving the American for the Big 12 needs to have his or her head examined. That aspect of this discussion is as big a no-brainer as there is. It's not even worth elaborating on.

That said, I do believe that the dynamics turned out in a way that had the Big 12 chosen Louisville over WVU, the Mountaineers would have been chosen to replace Maryland when the Terps bolted for the B1G a year later. West Virginia's academic profile is very similar to Louisville's and its football history is vastly superior to the Cards' football history. Also, it was pretty clear at that point that the football-centric schools were calling the shots. Just as they held their nose and chose Louisville in spite of its academic shortcomings, they would have done the same for West Virginia. There was too much money on the line for anyone to be too choosy.

Again though, how could Oliver Luck have possibly known that when he was going all out for the Big 12? Nobody saw the B1G's bizarre move of taking Maryland and Rutgers coming at that time.

Where I think the West Virginia and Big 12 folks absolutely CAN be faulted is in how they handled the Big 12's expansion. Also, the B12's leadership HAD to have seen this issue coming from a mile away.

The B12 was desperate and had very few realistic choices at its disposal - especially after talks with BYU broke down. The B12 couldn't have been in a weaker bargaining position. It had lost four members in two years and was literally fighting for its very survival. That is why I believed at the time and still do in retrospect that West Virginia should have partnered with Louisville and Cincinnati and forced the B12 to take all three as a package deal.

Revisionist history? Hardly.

I know for a fact that when Pitt thought it was going to the Big 12, before the ACC stepped in at the eleventh hour, it made a phone call to West Virginia about recruiting either Syracuse, Rutgers or Louisville (depending on whom you believe) to go as a package deal. Pitt feared being a geographic outlier and was trying to insulate itself from that fate.

Unfortunately for Pitt, WVU told them, "Thanks, but no thanks." The Mountaineers thought they were in good position to get an SEC bid and basically told Pitt that they would get back to them after the SEC made its decision. Fortunately for Pitt, shortly thereafter, the ACC stepped in and grabbed Pitt, which ended our interest in the B12's expansion plans. However, I did not understand then - and I still don't understand now - why they didn't just adapt Pitt's plan to their new circumstance? Had they chosen to go that route, I believe that WVU and the B12 would have been better off. Cincinnati too would have been better off. Louisville ended up in a better position by how things worked out and other than Rutgers, nobody came out better off than the Cards.

I wonder if WVa trusted Pitt enough at the time to do anything with Pitt? In fact, I don't know how anyone in the Big East could trust anyone else in the Big East at that time.

That could very well have played a part. There were a number of instances of doubletalk in dealings among northeastern schools. So I doubt there was a great deal of trust in anyone by anyone.

(12-31-2013 06:03 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  Perhaps what WVa could do is attempt the Emory solution - Emory has it's main campus in Atlanta, but a satellite, 2 year campus in Oxford, Ga. While those that start in Oxford eventually get an Emory degree, Oxford is smaller and less intense. Such an academy associated with WVa might be structured in such a way to bifurcate the direct admission to WVa and start the less academically accomplished kids in something like West Va University Academy - a two year program that leads to a direct transfer into WVa.

I have been making this same argument for years. WVU would be well-served to follow a satellite campus model. The main campus needs to raise admissions standards, and allow those who do not meet the standard to attend a campus with smaller classroom sizes, more direct attention from faculty, and less of a "party atmosphere".


As it stands now, the WVU faculty essentially serve as the admissions department. Students are allowed to enroll, but fail out when the faculty (many of whom are Big 10 educated) do not lower the expectations in their lower-division courses. Rigor is a good thing. Way too many students leave WVU with no college diploma and no way to recover the debt they incurred along the way. The dirty little secret is that they should have never been admitted in the first place. WVU is not alone in this type of scheme, but I think it is nothing short of amoral.


With that said, I do not think WVU can make these changes without major support from the state. This is a public policy issue as much as anything else. Something would need to make up for the lost tuition dollars if admission standards were raised. Before that, however, there would be a need for political will.

(01-01-2014 03:11 PM)EerMeNow Wrote:  

(12-31-2013 06:03 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  Perhaps what WVa could do is attempt the Emory solution - Emory has it's main campus in Atlanta, but a satellite, 2 year campus in Oxford, Ga. While those that start in Oxford eventually get an Emory degree, Oxford is smaller and less intense. Such an academy associated with WVa might be structured in such a way to bifurcate the direct admission to WVa and start the less academically accomplished kids in something like West Va University Academy - a two year program that leads to a direct transfer into WVa.

I have been making this same argument for years. WVU would be well-served to follow a satellite campus model. The main campus needs to raise admissions standards, and allow those who do not meet the standard to attend a campus with smaller classroom sizes, more direct attention from faculty, and less of a "party atmosphere".


As it stands now, the WVU faculty essentially serve as the admissions department. Students are allowed to enroll, but fail out when the faculty (many of whom are Big 10 educated) do not lower the expectations in their lower-division courses. Rigor is a good thing. Way too many students leave WVU with no college diploma and no way to recover the debt they incurred along the way. The dirty little secret is that they should have never been admitted in the first place. WVU is not alone in this type of scheme, but I think it is nothing short of amoral.


With that said, I do not think WVU can make these changes without major support from the state. This is a public policy issue as much as anything else. Something would need to make up for the lost tuition dollars if admission standards were raised. Before that, however, there would be a need for political will.

What's the community college situation in West Va? In NC we have 58 Community Colleges and they have additional satellite campuses so that a branch is in about 90 of the 100 counties. You can get a two year degree and acclimate to a higher degree of rigor for very little - about $70 a credit hour. There is also a transfer of an entire college transfer curriculum.

Then there are 15 units of the University of North Carolina of which UNC-Ch and NC State are the two flagships. Then you have entities like ECU, UNC-Greensboro, Appalachian State, UNC-Charlotte, UNC-Wilmington, etc., etc.

I suppose it's a financial issue for West Va., as well as a political issue. Historically mines and mills don't want the population too educated.

The 13 other UNC units absorb about 50K kids a year that UNC-Ch and NC State can pass over so those two can take the cream with the exception of those that bleed off the top to Duke, Davidson, and Wake Forest and that's limited to the wealthy and those that are relatively poor as Duke, Davidson, and Wake use formulas that make them almost free if your family income is below about 35K a year.

(12-31-2013 10:03 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  I wonder if WVa trusted Pitt enough at the time to do anything with Pitt? In fact, I don't know how anyone in the Big East could trust anyone else in the Big East at that time.

I suppose that could be true of the initial scenario but, from WVU's standpoint, it still doesn't explain why the Mountaineer brass didn't approach Louisville and Cincinnati to join them in the B12 AFTER Pitt and Syracuse left for the ACC? Now, maybe LOU and UC didn't trust WVU any more than WVU trusted Pitt but what other choice would they have had at that point? Also, what would they have had to lose?

I think the WVU and the Big 12 made a MAJOR tactical error in leaving LOU on the table and I think both sides will live to regret that mistake for years to come.

For the record, I want to make it clear that I think the 10-team model was probably at Texas' insistence more than the rest of the B12. I think the rest of the league was probably just grateful that they weren't being cast into the BCS wilderness and capitulating to Texas' demands seems like a small price to pay for stability.

However I also think that WVU and LOU were SO much better than all of the other remaining candidates that they held more bargaining power than perhaps either realized at the time. I believe that had they pushed the issue of three going together, the B12 would have ultimately relented and looked like the following:

Baylor
Cincinnati
Iowa State
Kansas
Kansas State
Louisville
Oklahoma
Oklahoma State
Texas
Texas Christian
Texas Tech
West Virginia

I think that lineup would have been better for everyone (save perhaps Louisville) in the long term than how things ultimately worked out. And if you decide that you have to go to 14 schools like the other power leagues, you have Central Florida and South Florida sitting right there begging to be had. Now THAT would be one helluva league, IMHO and much more stable than the way they opted to go.

Just one man's opinion.

At the time some of us were SCREAMING for them to take Louisville too.

It continues to surprise me that just one difficult person can stand in the way of great progress. Or cause so much damage. But fortunately the clock is ticking in this case.

(01-01-2014 03:36 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  

(01-01-2014 03:11 PM)EerMeNow Wrote:  

(12-31-2013 06:03 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  Perhaps what WVa could do is attempt the Emory solution - Emory has it's main campus in Atlanta, but a satellite, 2 year campus in Oxford, Ga. While those that start in Oxford eventually get an Emory degree, Oxford is smaller and less intense. Such an academy associated with WVa might be structured in such a way to bifurcate the direct admission to WVa and start the less academically accomplished kids in something like West Va University Academy - a two year program that leads to a direct transfer into WVa.

I have been making this same argument for years. WVU would be well-served to follow a satellite campus model. The main campus needs to raise admissions standards, and allow those who do not meet the standard to attend a campus with smaller classroom sizes, more direct attention from faculty, and less of a "party atmosphere".


As it stands now, the WVU faculty essentially serve as the admissions department. Students are allowed to enroll, but fail out when the faculty (many of whom are Big 10 educated) do not lower the expectations in their lower-division courses. Rigor is a good thing. Way too many students leave WVU with no college diploma and no way to recover the debt they incurred along the way. The dirty little secret is that they should have never been admitted in the first place. WVU is not alone in this type of scheme, but I think it is nothing short of amoral.


With that said, I do not think WVU can make these changes without major support from the state. This is a public policy issue as much as anything else. Something would need to make up for the lost tuition dollars if admission standards were raised. Before that, however, there would be a need for political will.

What's the community college situation in West Va? In NC we have 58 Community Colleges and they have additional satellite campuses so that a branch is in about 90 of the 100 counties. You can get a two year degree and acclimate to a higher degree of rigor for very little - about $70 a credit hour. There is also a transfer of an entire college transfer curriculum.

Then there are 15 units of the University of North Carolina of which UNC-Ch and NC State are the two flagships. Then you have entities like ECU, UNC-Greensboro, Appalachian State, UNC-Charlotte, UNC-Wilmington, etc., etc.

I suppose it's a financial issue for West Va., as well as a political issue. Historically mines and mills don't want the population too educated.

The 13 other UNC units absorb about 50K kids a year that UNC-Ch and NC State can pass over so those two can take the cream with the exception of those that bleed off the top to Duke, Davidson, and Wake Forest and that's limited to the wealthy and those that are relatively poor as Duke, Davidson, and Wake use formulas that make them almost free if your family income is below about 35K a year.

The higher education system in West Virginia is too bloated and inefficient. There are at least 8 different public 4-year baccalaureate institutions in the state. To my knowledge, several of them are having a difficult time staying open. Why go to Glenville State when your high school transcript satisfies the requirements for WVU?


It is the Glenville States of the world (not to mention the young people of West Virginia), that "could" truly benefit from WVU raising admissions standards. I guess they could also stand to lose if state policy-makers decided that the way to off-set lost tuition dollars from WVU raising its admissions standards would be to de-fund 1 or 2 of the 8 public schools.


On the other hand, there is an outstanding network of 2 year schools scattered throughout the state. Not sure how the current transfer policies work, but these schools would be perfect to allow students to earn an associates degree while completing their general education courses. IF (capitalization intended), they succeed, there should be an easy path to transfer to WVU. The two year schools also offer outstanding technical education for those who do not wish to further their education.


The point is, unless I am missing a key component of this, WVU, "some" of the smaller schools, and especially the young people of the state would all benefit from WVU raising admissions standards.

(01-01-2014 07:09 PM)EerMeNow Wrote:  

(01-01-2014 03:36 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  

(01-01-2014 03:11 PM)EerMeNow Wrote:  

(12-31-2013 06:03 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  Perhaps what WVa could do is attempt the Emory solution - Emory has it's main campus in Atlanta, but a satellite, 2 year campus in Oxford, Ga. While those that start in Oxford eventually get an Emory degree, Oxford is smaller and less intense. Such an academy associated with WVa might be structured in such a way to bifurcate the direct admission to WVa and start the less academically accomplished kids in something like West Va University Academy - a two year program that leads to a direct transfer into WVa.

I have been making this same argument for years. WVU would be well-served to follow a satellite campus model. The main campus needs to raise admissions standards, and allow those who do not meet the standard to attend a campus with smaller classroom sizes, more direct attention from faculty, and less of a "party atmosphere".


As it stands now, the WVU faculty essentially serve as the admissions department. Students are allowed to enroll, but fail out when the faculty (many of whom are Big 10 educated) do not lower the expectations in their lower-division courses. Rigor is a good thing. Way too many students leave WVU with no college diploma and no way to recover the debt they incurred along the way. The dirty little secret is that they should have never been admitted in the first place. WVU is not alone in this type of scheme, but I think it is nothing short of amoral.


With that said, I do not think WVU can make these changes without major support from the state. This is a public policy issue as much as anything else. Something would need to make up for the lost tuition dollars if admission standards were raised. Before that, however, there would be a need for political will.

What's the community college situation in West Va? In NC we have 58 Community Colleges and they have additional satellite campuses so that a branch is in about 90 of the 100 counties. You can get a two year degree and acclimate to a higher degree of rigor for very little - about $70 a credit hour. There is also a transfer of an entire college transfer curriculum.

Then there are 15 units of the University of North Carolina of which UNC-Ch and NC State are the two flagships. Then you have entities like ECU, UNC-Greensboro, Appalachian State, UNC-Charlotte, UNC-Wilmington, etc., etc.

I suppose it's a financial issue for West Va., as well as a political issue. Historically mines and mills don't want the population too educated.

The 13 other UNC units absorb about 50K kids a year that UNC-Ch and NC State can pass over so those two can take the cream with the exception of those that bleed off the top to Duke, Davidson, and Wake Forest and that's limited to the wealthy and those that are relatively poor as Duke, Davidson, and Wake use formulas that make them almost free if your family income is below about 35K a year.

The higher education system in West Virginia is too bloated and inefficient. There are at least 8 different public 4-year baccalaureate institutions in the state. To my knowledge, several of them are having a difficult time staying open. Why go to Glenville State when your high school transcript satisfies the requirements for WVU?


It is the Glenville States of the world (not to mention the young people of West Virginia), that "could" truly benefit from WVU raising admissions standards. I guess they could also stand to lose if state policy-makers decided that the way to off-set lost tuition dollars from WVU raising its admissions standards would be to de-fund 1 or 2 of the 8 public schools.


On the other hand, there is an outstanding network of 2 year schools scattered throughout the state. Not sure how the current transfer policies work, but these schools would be perfect to allow students to earn an associates degree while completing their general education courses. IF (capitalization intended), they succeed, there should be an easy path to transfer to WVU. The two year schools also offer outstanding technical education for those who do not wish to further their education.


The point is, unless I am missing a key component of this, WVU, "some" of the smaller schools, and especially the young people of the state would all benefit from WVU raising admissions standards.

There are a few old WV Conference members that are having trouble making ends meet. Salem used to have that problem. But they sold out to Teikyo University and became Salem-Teikyo.