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JMU Academics/Reputation - bigdog3030 - 01-25-2021 11:19 AM
So I used to be very active on this board (more on the old CAA Zone board) but kids have changed that the past few years.
With my kids starting to become teens, Colleges and thinking about them has become more of a conversation lately.
The more people I talk to, it seems to me that the JMU reputation academically has fallen (im class of 1994 for reference). A lot of the parents around me are considering JMU more of a "safetly school" as are their kids. In my day, JMU was harder to get into than VT, but that is 100% not the case anymore in what I am seeing.
Questions:
1. Is what I am hearing correct? Has the reputation diminished?
2. Why?
3. Are other schools raising their game or has JMU gone down?
What am I missing?
RE: JMU Academics/Reputation - BSKB 24 - 01-25-2021 11:26 AM
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
There is no place like home...there is no place like home.
JMU is an even better place for your kids to go than when you went.
RE: JMU Academics/Reputation - Anders - 01-25-2021 11:32 AM
I think it’s unfair to call JMU a “safety school” when you compare it to other public universities in Virginia. Yes, when compared to the top 3 public universities in terms of admission requirements (UVA, William & Mary, and Virginia Tech), it has fallen behind those schools but is still ahead of others like VCU, George Mason, ODU, Radford, Longwood, etc.
I think the best argument you made was that Virginia Tech has gradually increased its admission standards past JMU. I still think JMU has programs such as Business, Nursing, Education, etc that are all much better and create better outcomes than Tech, but you are right that it is viewed as a harder school to get into.
RE: JMU Academics/Reputation - JMURocks - 01-25-2021 12:54 PM
BigDog, my impression is the same.
The acceptance rate was once much lower, and it was more competitive for top students who knew it was difficult to get in. JMU seemed to make a deal with the state: in exchange for more funding, they would greatly expand the school and take in more students. This meant rapid growth, and that has made it easier than in the past to attend.
I hope the current and/or future presidents will slow down this expansion phase, and start to focus on more research. I'd rather see a slightly smaller undergraduate population, and expanded graduate programs. I'm not sure growing the undergrad base is even feasible now with covid and other shifts toward online programs. Cutting edge research and quality graduate programs are a better way to compete going forward. Look to provide experiences and degrees that are not as feasible with online education. I think some of this is underway, and hope that will be the emphasis for the next 10 years rather than undergrad population growth.
RE: JMU Academics/Reputation - NC Tribe - 01-25-2021 12:59 PM
Because all the baby boomer's kids have already graduated from high school, the number of college age people in the US is declining.
https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/education-postsecondary/reports/2020/09/28/490838/time-worry-college-enrollment-declines-among-black-students/#:~:text=From%20the%202014%2D15%20to,decline%20of%205%20percentage%20points.
This makes it hard to maintain, let alone expand, the number of under graduate students without lowering admission standards.
RE: JMU Academics/Reputation - Dukester - 01-25-2021 02:15 PM
I recall JMU having the biggest VA applicant rejection rate in the 80's, but I think it's still very respected by those I talk to. It depended on what school you were applying to, but I knew of many people getting into Tech that were declined to JMU20-30 years ago. I think that has changed with the big jump in size of JMU.
RE: JMU Academics/Reputation - JMU Fan In Atlanta - 01-25-2021 05:55 PM
I started at JMU in 85 and graduated 89. My son is a HS senior in suburban Atlanta. Goes to a small private school, valedictorian, ACT of 35. We toured about a half dozen colleges and loved JMU the best. The tour guide was fantastic and the admissions person who gave the presentation was great. The prior day we visited VT and the admissions person told everyone not to worry about the grammar or spelling on their essay. My wife was appalled. Next day JMU said to be sure to check your grammar and spelling on your essay, that details matter. I was so proud! But as my son realized he would have a lot of options, the 77% acceptance rate at JMU completely turned him off and he decided on Ga Tech business with a full tuition scholarship. I'm bummed bc I think JMU would fit his personality well, but I agree with his decision. Acceptance rate was around 35% in 1985 when I went there.....77% now is surprising to me.
RE: JMU Academics/Reputation - JMU2004 - 01-25-2021 06:03 PM
(01-25-2021 05:55 PM)JMU Fan In Atlanta Wrote: I started at JMU in 85 and graduated 89. My son is a HS senior in suburban Atlanta. Goes to a small private school, valedictorian, ACT of 35. We toured about a half dozen colleges and loved JMU the best. The tour guide was fantastic and the admissions person who gave the presentation was great. The prior day we visited VT and the admissions person told everyone not to worry about the grammar or spelling on their essay. My wife was appalled. Next day JMU said to be sure to check your grammar and spelling on your essay, that details matter. I was so proud! But as my son realized he would have a lot of options, the 77% acceptance rate at JMU completely turned him off and he decided on Ga Tech business with a full tuition scholarship. I'm bummed bc I think JMU would fit his personality well, but I agree with his decision. Acceptance rate was around 35% in 1985 when I went there.....77% now is surprising to me.
I love JMU, but GT on a full ride is a no brainer to me.
RE: JMU Academics/Reputation - Longhorn - 01-25-2021 06:40 PM
(01-25-2021 05:55 PM)JMU Fan In Atlanta Wrote: I started at JMU in 85 and graduated 89. My son is a HS senior in suburban Atlanta. Goes to a small private school, valedictorian, ACT of 35. We toured about a half dozen colleges and loved JMU the best. The tour guide was fantastic and the admissions person who gave the presentation was great. The prior day we visited VT and the admissions person told everyone not to worry about the grammar or spelling on their essay. My wife was appalled. Next day JMU said to be sure to check your grammar and spelling on your essay, that details matter. I was so proud! But as my son realized he would have a lot of options, the 77% acceptance rate at JMU completely turned him off and he decided on Ga Tech business with a full tuition scholarship. I'm bummed bc I think JMU would fit his personality well, but I agree with his decision. Acceptance rate was around 35% in 1985 when I went there.....77% now is surprising to me.
Let’s get this admission question/concern straight from an “insider”....
JMU’s does not admit unqualified students.
The current percentage of JMU applicants who are offered admission is primarily due to two reasons:
1) Enrollment targets drive JMU’s budget. The JMU endowment can not fill-in for a budget shortfall if enrollment targets are not met. A large applicant pool (and JMU’s is very large), and a high percentage of admits, does not mean students offered admission are not qualified to do rigorous college level work. Proof? JMU does not offer remedial (sub freshman level coursework). Never has, and likely never will as there is zero discussion to do so. Furthermore, JMU maintains over a 92% retention rate, and graduates over 80% of all students who enter JMU. Those are verified numbers of an exceptionally strong public university. The icing on the cake is JMU’s establishment of an Honors College (not a “program”) but a college with a Dean that has a seat at the highest level of university decision making. Top academics at JMU remain a priority.
2) JMU competes with other fine universities for top students, but with few exceptions, JMU can not match scholarship money offered to top students who have applied to JMU. As a result, JMU does not enroll as many of the top applicants in our applicant pool as we would like. When JMU loses a top applicant, keeping with the need to meet enrollment/budget targets, JMU casts a wider admissions net.
The higher admissions percentages are a sign of a young public university that is growing rapidly and is juggling resources to attract and hold onto top students (and faculty). There is a sophisticated understanding within JMU’s administration of the institution’s admission profile and the strategic factors involved as JMU competes for the best students in Virginia, across the U.S. and internationally.
In brief, keep the faith. Support your alma mater. Put your money towards academic scholarships and let the university decision makers know you support academics as much as you do varsity athletics.
RE: JMU Academics/Reputation - JMaddy - 01-25-2021 06:59 PM
(01-25-2021 06:40 PM)Longhorn Wrote:(01-25-2021 05:55 PM)JMU Fan In Atlanta Wrote: I started at JMU in 85 and graduated 89. My son is a HS senior in suburban Atlanta. Goes to a small private school, valedictorian, ACT of 35. We toured about a half dozen colleges and loved JMU the best. The tour guide was fantastic and the admissions person who gave the presentation was great. The prior day we visited VT and the admissions person told everyone not to worry about the grammar or spelling on their essay. My wife was appalled. Next day JMU said to be sure to check your grammar and spelling on your essay, that details matter. I was so proud! But as my son realized he would have a lot of options, the 77% acceptance rate at JMU completely turned him off and he decided on Ga Tech business with a full tuition scholarship. I'm bummed bc I think JMU would fit his personality well, but I agree with his decision. Acceptance rate was around 35% in 1985 when I went there.....77% now is surprising to me.
Let’s get this admission question/concern straight from an “insider”....
JMU’s does not admit unqualified students.
The current percentage of JMU applicants who are offered admission is primarily due to two reasons:
1) Enrollment targets drive JMU’s budget. The JMU endowment can not fill-in for a budget shortfall if enrollment targets are not met. A large applicant pool (and JMU’s is very large), and a high percentage of admits, does not mean students offered admission are not qualified to do rigorous college level work. Proof? JMU does not offer remedial (sub freshman level coursework). Never has, and likely never will as there is zero discussion to do so. Furthermore, JMU maintains over a 92% retention rate, and graduates over 80% of all students who enter JMU. Those are verified numbers of an exceptionally strong public university. The icing on the cake is JMU’s establishment of an Honors College (not a “program”) but a college with a Dean that has a seat at the highest level of university decision making. Top academics at JMU remain a priority.
2) JMU competes with other fine universities for top students, but with few exceptions, JMU can not match scholarship money offered to top students who have applied to JMU. As a result, JMU does not enroll as many of the top applicants in our applicant pool as we would like. When JMU loses a top applicant, keeping with the need to meet enrollment/budget targets, JMU casts a wider admissions net.
The higher admissions percentages are a sign of a young public university that is growing rapidly and is juggling resources to attract and hold onto top students (and faculty). There is a sophisticated understanding within JMU’s administration of the institution’s admission profile and the strategic factors involved as JMU competes for the best students in Virginia, across the U.S. and internationally.
In brief, keep the faith. Support your alma mater. Put your money towards academic scholarships and let the university decision makers know you support academics as much as you do varsity athletics.
What's the solution to #2? Just larger endowment or is there some other strategy like focus on scolarships for top end students so we don't lose out as much? I just wonder if solving the retention of the top students might also 'fix' the high acceptance rate problem as a collateral impact.
How much bigger does the endowment really need to be for it to really be worth a damn?
Recently I received an email from JMU about setting up a recurring donation to the Proud & True fund, it's the first time I recall a direct solicitation for a recurring donation on my CC that I didn't first have to initiate by going to the Duke Club and selecting 'donate' first.
Why aren't they doing that more with the general endownment? We have over 100k living alumni, almost all who can afford a $10, $20, $30 monthly credit card charge without batting an eye, which would add another $12M+ a year to the endowment on cruise control. Its not much but better than the endowment has done in most years of its existence. Use a strong follow up marketing campaign to up those donors to move to $30, $50, $100 per month and then we're getting somewhere. Giving day is great and all but I think with the subscription society we live in where people routinely drop $10 here, $15 there for monthly passes to Spotify, Peloton, Disney+ or ESPN+ what's another small fee?
RE: JMU Academics/Reputation - jmutoml757 - 01-25-2021 07:09 PM
37% acceptance rate the year I was admitted. It was not uncommon for folks to get into UVA and not JMU then; I knew several. VT was easy to get into then- received acceptance before Christmas, and it wasn’t early admission or anything.
RE: JMU Academics/Reputation - Dukeman2 - 01-25-2021 07:36 PM
The value of our diploma has been destroyed.
31% acceptance rate in 1987
https://commons.lib.jmu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1430&context=i19801989
RE: JMU Academics/Reputation - Longhorn - 01-25-2021 07:40 PM
(01-25-2021 06:59 PM)JMaddy Wrote:(01-25-2021 06:40 PM)Longhorn Wrote:(01-25-2021 05:55 PM)JMU Fan In Atlanta Wrote: I started at JMU in 85 and graduated 89. My son is a HS senior in suburban Atlanta. Goes to a small private school, valedictorian, ACT of 35. We toured about a half dozen colleges and loved JMU the best. The tour guide was fantastic and the admissions person who gave the presentation was great. The prior day we visited VT and the admissions person told everyone not to worry about the grammar or spelling on their essay. My wife was appalled. Next day JMU said to be sure to check your grammar and spelling on your essay, that details matter. I was so proud! But as my son realized he would have a lot of options, the 77% acceptance rate at JMU completely turned him off and he decided on Ga Tech business with a full tuition scholarship. I'm bummed bc I think JMU would fit his personality well, but I agree with his decision. Acceptance rate was around 35% in 1985 when I went there.....77% now is surprising to me.
Let’s get this admission question/concern straight from an “insider”....
JMU’s does not admit unqualified students.
The current percentage of JMU applicants who are offered admission is primarily due to two reasons:
1) Enrollment targets drive JMU’s budget. The JMU endowment can not fill-in for a budget shortfall if enrollment targets are not met. A large applicant pool (and JMU’s is very large), and a high percentage of admits, does not mean students offered admission are not qualified to do rigorous college level work. Proof? JMU does not offer remedial (sub freshman level coursework). Never has, and likely never will as there is zero discussion to do so. Furthermore, JMU maintains over a 92% retention rate, and graduates over 80% of all students who enter JMU. Those are verified numbers of an exceptionally strong public university. The icing on the cake is JMU’s establishment of an Honors College (not a “program”) but a college with a Dean that has a seat at the highest level of university decision making. Top academics at JMU remain a priority.
2) JMU competes with other fine universities for top students, but with few exceptions, JMU can not match scholarship money offered to top students who have applied to JMU. As a result, JMU does not enroll as many of the top applicants in our applicant pool as we would like. When JMU loses a top applicant, keeping with the need to meet enrollment/budget targets, JMU casts a wider admissions net.
The higher admissions percentages are a sign of a young public university that is growing rapidly and is juggling resources to attract and hold onto top students (and faculty). There is a sophisticated understanding within JMU’s administration of the institution’s admission profile and the strategic factors involved as JMU competes for the best students in Virginia, across the U.S. and internationally.
In brief, keep the faith. Support your alma mater. Put your money towards academic scholarships and let the university decision makers know you support academics as much as you do varsity athletics.
What's the solution to #2? Just larger endowment or is there some other strategy like focus on scolarships for top end students so we don't lose out as much? I just wonder if solving the retention of the top students might also 'fix' the high acceptance rate problem as a collateral impact.
How much bigger does the endowment really need to be for it to really be worth a damn?
Recently I received an email from JMU about setting up a recurring donation to the Proud & True fund, it's the first time I recall a direct solicitation for a recurring donation on my CC that I didn't first have to initiate by going to the Duke Club and selecting 'donate' first.
Why aren't they doing that more with the general endownment? We have over 100k living alumni, almost all who can afford a $10, $20, $30 monthly credit card charge without batting an eye, which would add another $12M+ a year to the endowment on cruise control. Its not much but better than the endowment has done in most years of its existence. Use a strong follow up marketing campaign to up those donors to move to $30, $50, $100 per month and then we're getting somewhere. Giving day is great and all but I think with the subscription society we live in where people routinely drop $10 here, $15 there for monthly passes to Spotify, Peloton, Disney+ or ESPN+ what's another small fee?
The endowment is (or was) growing, and the second campaign to raise $200 million was starting when the pandemic screwed things up.
To answer your question of how large does the JMU endowment need to be to meet the needs of attracting and retaining top students is open-ended. Harvard enrolls 12k students and has multi-billion dollar endowment. Working back from that high-water mark I think you’d first have to develop a strategy as to what you want to accomplish. Right now the strategy is just trying to keep the lights on by meeting enrollment targets.
The U. of Alabama (never an institution known for its academics) decided a number of years ago they were going to admit a large number of National Merit Scholarship finalists. I can’t remember the exact number, it was in excess of 100 top kids, with full-rides. Well, they raised money and put it towards that goal and they were successful in enrolling a bunch of smart kids. In essence, UA was “seeding” their student body with top scholars, which complimented their FB success. In time it helps change or alter the public perception of an institution.
I’d love to see JMU raise an endowment sufficient to enroll 200 merit scholars (50 per class), or if not National Merit kids, 200 students enrolled and provided full rides to enroll/study within the Honors College. I’m just spit-balling now, but 200 students on full-rides (a mix that includes in-state, out of state, international and legacy applicants) could run an easy $5-8 mil a year. How large would an endowment need to be to generate that kind of return?
RE: JMU Academics/Reputation - bcp_jmu - 01-25-2021 08:04 PM
$8M would be a 3% return on a $266M endowment; and that's a crazy conservative rate of return, but that would be 100% of the interest used for one thing.
Seems doable today if it's the only thing the interest is spent on
RE: JMU Academics/Reputation - Dukeman2 - 01-25-2021 08:21 PM
BOV Comments on this topic:
Tickle goes on to describe specific grievances he holds against Alger, who he said has shown “poor judgment [and] a lack of leadership,” including Alger’s comparatively decreased activity in the state legislature as compared to former presidents Ron Carrier and Rose, and JMU’s decreasing selectivity — which Tickle attributes to increasing enrollment concerns.
As previously reported by The Breeze, the university’s admission rate has seen a steady (staggering) incline in recent years. While over the past decade, the university’s enrollment has remained decently steady, in the 2010-11 school year, JMU’s acceptance rate sat at 61%, in the 2019-20 school year, the rate hit 77%.
Longhorn is misrepresenting facts.
The first step to solving a problem is .........
RE: JMU Academics/Reputation - Longhorn - 01-25-2021 09:27 PM
(01-25-2021 08:21 PM)Dukeman2 Wrote: BOV Comments on this topic:
Tickle goes on to describe specific grievances he holds against Alger, who he said has shown “poor judgment [and] a lack of leadership,” including Alger’s comparatively decreased activity in the state legislature as compared to former presidents Ron Carrier and Rose, and JMU’s decreasing selectivity — which Tickle attributes to increasing enrollment concerns.
As previously reported by The Breeze, the university’s admission rate has seen a steady (staggering) incline in recent years. While over the past decade, the university’s enrollment has remained decently steady, in the 2010-11 school year, JMU’s acceptance rate sat at 61%, in the 2019-20 school year, the rate hit 77%.
Longhorn is misrepresenting facts.
The first step to solving a problem is .........
I haven’t misrepresented a single thing. You however, have taken stats, and apparently are attempting to promote a story that fits some sort of wacky, simplistic point based on numbers without context.
A few pertinent questions:
1.What was JMU’s enrollment in 2010?
2.What was the targeted enrollment for JMU (as agreed to by SCHEV) in 2010?
3.What were the number of students in the applicant pool?
4.What was the academic profile of the applicant pool?
5.What was the university budget in 2010, and the percentage of that budget dependent on enrollment?
6.What was the Commonwealth’s budget for academic support at JMU in 2011?
7.What was the university’s endowment in 2010, and what part of it went to support student scholarships?
I could go on...but comparing 2011 to 2019 without a deeper context is meaningless.
The same questions above might also be asked of the 2019 class. A lot can happen in 8 years.
RE: JMU Academics/Reputation - Deez Nuts - 01-25-2021 10:36 PM
Dukeman will never miss a good chance to smear JMU so his replies mean nothing.
The Dukes are the best at all things, so keep those applications coming!
RE: JMU Academics/Reputation - Longhorn - 01-26-2021 12:00 AM
(01-25-2021 10:36 PM)Deez Nuts Wrote: Dukeman will never miss a good chance to smear JMU so his replies mean nothing.
The Dukes are the best at all things, so keep those applications coming!
JMU is an extraordinary institution, and the envy of many schools. That shared (and I truly believe it) JMU is competing in a market for a limited number of top students...and our stiffest competition have advantages that are very difficult to overcome. Take UVA or W&M, or even VA Tech, they have either an academic history, endowment, or public profile that is stronger than JMU.
I always hated seeing a bright student decline an offer from JMU to attend another school...but more often than not the student chose a university that was equally strong, and often stronger. It’s akin to recruiting athletes, and you can’t win ‘em all.
For example, JMU has an outstanding School of Music, however, if we lose a potential student to Cincinnati or Indiana we can’t start dissing JMU’s music program. We’ve got to continue to recruit and work harder...and as I’ve shared, it helps if you have the $$$ to attract those good students. Cincinnati and Indiana know JMU’s program is excellent, but those programs currently have a leg up on us. Now, if that talented music student is offered admission by Juilliard or Eastman, even with available scholarship money, it’s very unlikely even Cincinnati, Indiana or JMU will sign that student. Rather like trying to recruit that 5 star QB or Power Forward. Some talent is currently (I stress currently) beyond our reach.
As the dust settles on JMU’s frenzied campus construction, and enrollment stops after arriving at around 25-27k, JMU’s admission selectively may go up...although with fewer kids of college age in the available national application pool, perhaps it will stay the same, or even decrease. But I’m optimistic the next century of JMU’s existence will be the best yet.
RE: JMU Academics/Reputation - TUowl06 - 01-26-2021 01:13 AM
As someone who is currently transitioning into higher education (I had TWO positions lined up at NDSU that Covid kiboshed, now I'm getting my butt kicked taking classes at ND before starting my grad program this summer in higher-ed leadership) the JMU situation is certainly fascinating to me. The alumni base/fans seem to be in quite the quandary between FBS football aspirations and maintaining quality academic affiliations. The CAA as a whole is comprised of excellent academic institutions. I can certainly see why administrators and trustees would be hesitant to cut ties with W&M, Villanova, SBU, UNH, Delaware, Maine, Northeastern etc. THAT "quality of institutional depth" simply does not exist in the SBC and CUSA (Rice is such an outlier) as presently constructed or the ASUN should it opt to move up.
If there is a clear separation that occurs within FBS, there's a chance the new second tier will be comprised of mostly regional, less selective institutions with honestly modest at best resources. Meanwhile, FCS will likely still be home to several flagship/land grand universities, the Ivies, the Patriot League school as well as the prominent HBCU's. In the grand scheme of things that will NEVER be bad company to keep.
The best landing stop for JMU is still the MAC imo. It's a conference that's comprised of quality institutions and is generally comfortable in their own skin; it's a very stable conference. Those key components (among others) have allowed the MAC to forge a niche identity within FBS. The conference's close ties to the Big 10 (geographically/politically/academically) provides added stability. Plus, from a purely selfish prospective, the MAC saved Temple football.
RE: JMU Academics/Reputation - TUowl06 - 01-26-2021 01:39 AM
(01-25-2021 07:09 PM)jmutoml757 Wrote: 37% acceptance rate the year I was admitted. It was not uncommon for folks to get into UVA and not JMU then; I knew several. VT was easy to get into then- received acceptance before Christmas, and it wasn’t early admission or anything.
To go from 37% to 77% is alarming. Are there any other examples of an acceptance rate increasing this significantly?
I know Holy Cross's acceptance rate at one point (30+ years ago) was a tick below 20% and now hovers around 40%. Doug Flutie and Boston College basically stole their thunder. Hence the term, "Flutie Effect"...