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RE: 2017 basketball - Gilesfan - 12-18-2017 11:46 AM
(12-18-2017 11:40 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:(12-18-2017 11:13 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:(12-18-2017 09:39 AM)ODUCoach Wrote:(12-18-2017 12:00 AM)Monarchblue Wrote: Not trying to take a shot at anybody, but was wondering if anyone knows what the story with Shannon Evans was. How did he end up at Buffalo? Were we recruiting him? If so, does anyone know why we didn't get him. If he had come to ODU, and his career had progressed the way it has, he could have been a program changer, especially when you consider he would have been playing alongside Freeman for a couple years.
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Evans was not highly recruited at all coming out of Nansemond River. From what I remember, he was undersized, especially early in his high school career, and may have had some trouble academically early. I think the post-grad year at Hargrave really helped him with discipline in and out of the classroom. From what I remember, he had offers from the likes of Gardner Webb, App State, Morehead State, and that's about it. The offer from Buffalo was the best offer he had, by far, especially given the uptempo game they play, which suits Shannon's style pretty well.
Good example of a player not being ready to play at a level and finally having the switch turn on for him. Terrible freshman year, solid sophmore year; moved up to ASU and was pretty bad last year and is now playing like an all american this year.
He was so bad as a freshman and sophomore that his coach took him with him to a P5 program. Makes sense.
Did you miss the solid soph year part? Or maybe, just maybe, the coach saw potential in him despite his early struggles?
RE: 2017 basketball - Cyniclone - 12-18-2017 12:37 PM
(12-17-2017 06:43 PM)Old Dominion Wrote: Wow, just realized of the 11 OOC games, only 4 are at home and of those 4, 2 are MEAC's. That's pretty lame.
Four home (Bowling Green, Richmond, Towson, Maryland-Eastern Shore)
One home/netural (NSU)
Three true neutral (Temple, Indiana State, Dayton)
Four road (Fairfield, JMU, William & Mary, VCU)
Not that bad, all things considered. You're not going to get an at-large bid with that OOC, but let's be honest, this team wasn't getting an at-large anyway. Sometimes you schedule to get better, whether it benefits your NCAA chances or not.
RE: 2017 basketball - Cyniclone - 12-18-2017 12:50 PM
(12-17-2017 09:40 AM)jasdf Wrote: 6 posts in a row in response to 1 post, yet none of the 6 actually contained a rebuttal...Just a ribbing about caps use. And these responses coming from some of the posters who openly detest posts void of content, yet here they are, content-less themselves. Comical at best.
Then here's a response that has nothing to do with CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL: ODU is a mid-major program, and the scheduling is going to reflect that. Most of the power-conference programs aren't going to play ODU in Norfolk. Your best bet is getting better mid-majors to play you, and quite frankly, the Monarchs have been pretty good about scheduling those games — lots of A-10 and CAA opponents dot the OOC. This year's wasn't as sexy—thanks to St. Bonaventure crapping out on a deal and Richmond going down the toilet—but if this is as bad as it gets then I'd say that's still pretty good.
Being upset that the schedule doesn't live up to that poster's expectation only works if you can make a good argument, but quite frankly, that response read like a transcribed temper tantrum (which may not have been the poster's intent, but the all-caps is not good form and does in fact inform the message). Would fans be happier with four losses against P5 opponents than four wins against mid-majors? I don't know, but success is a paint that covers a multitude of sins, and failure is a highlighter. Plus look at how people here have gotten upset at ODU football not beating the power opponents that it has played so far, wondering why they should bother scheduling them (or in some cases even being FBS at all). Can't keep everyone happy.
I'll say this: Warts and all, I'll take ODU's basketball scheduling over most mid-major programs' (if nothing else, they're not scheduling games against D2/3/NAIA/USCAA teams on the regular).
RE: 2017 basketball - ODU BBALL - 12-18-2017 01:25 PM
(12-18-2017 12:50 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:(12-17-2017 09:40 AM)jasdf Wrote: 6 posts in a row in response to 1 post, yet none of the 6 actually contained a rebuttal...Just a ribbing about caps use. And these responses coming from some of the posters who openly detest posts void of content, yet here they are, content-less themselves. Comical at best.
Then here's a response that has nothing to do with CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL: ODU is a mid-major program, and the scheduling is going to reflect that. Most of the power-conference programs aren't going to play ODU in Norfolk. Your best bet is getting better mid-majors to play you, and quite frankly, the Monarchs have been pretty good about scheduling those games — lots of A-10 and CAA opponents dot the OOC. This year's wasn't as sexy—thanks to St. Bonaventure crapping out on a deal and Richmond going down the toilet—but if this is as bad as it gets then I'd say that's still pretty good.
Being upset that the schedule doesn't live up to that poster's expectation only works if you can make a good argument, but quite frankly, that response read like a transcribed temper tantrum (which may not have been the poster's intent, but the all-caps is not good form and does in fact inform the message). Would fans be happier with four losses against P5 opponents than four wins against mid-majors? I don't know, but success is a paint that covers a multitude of sins, and failure is a highlighter. Plus look at how people here have gotten upset at ODU football not beating the power opponents that it has played so far, wondering why they should bother scheduling them (or in some cases even being FBS at all). Can't keep everyone happy.
I'll say this: Warts and all, I'll take ODU's basketball scheduling over most mid-major programs' (if nothing else, they're not scheduling games against D2/3/NAIA/USCAA teams on the regular).
Only problem that I have with your message is that you are acting like it is a forgone conclusion that if ODU played 4 power conference schools that they would lose all 4. While that may well be the case today, it was not so much the case just a short while ago when ODU was defeating schools like Georgetown and Va Tech on the road as well as at home. It seems that we had higher expectations back then.
RE: 2017 basketball - Gilesfan - 12-18-2017 01:43 PM
We did something right because we are currently 69th in KenPom and 60th in RPI. That is approaching the conversation of at large opportunities.
For all the "we wont have any top 100 wins" criteria, we currently have 2 RPI top 100 wins. Towson (33) and Dayton (58).
Losses have been to 12 (Temple), 115 (VCU), and 122 (W&M).
Despite all the criticisms of the board, we had a solid and productive OOC this year.
RE: 2017 basketball - ODUBB35 - 12-18-2017 01:53 PM
(12-18-2017 01:43 PM)Gilesfan Wrote: We did something right because we are currently 69th in KenPom and 60th in RPI. That is approaching the conversation of at large opportunities.
For all the "we wont have any top 100 wins" criteria, we currently have 2 RPI top 100 wins. Towson (33) and Dayton (58).
Losses have been to 12 (Temple), 115 (VCU), and 122 (W&M).
Despite all the criticisms of the board, we had a solid and productive OOC this year.
That would be awesome, but we need to avoid one of those WTH losses in conference (ala, Southern Miss, UTSA). Our RPI is going to sink if we beat these teams, much less if we lose to one of them.
RE: 2017 basketball - Cyniclone - 12-18-2017 02:23 PM
(12-18-2017 01:25 PM)ODU BBALL Wrote:(12-18-2017 12:50 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:(12-17-2017 09:40 AM)jasdf Wrote: 6 posts in a row in response to 1 post, yet none of the 6 actually contained a rebuttal...Just a ribbing about caps use. And these responses coming from some of the posters who openly detest posts void of content, yet here they are, content-less themselves. Comical at best.
Then here's a response that has nothing to do with CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL: ODU is a mid-major program, and the scheduling is going to reflect that. Most of the power-conference programs aren't going to play ODU in Norfolk. Your best bet is getting better mid-majors to play you, and quite frankly, the Monarchs have been pretty good about scheduling those games — lots of A-10 and CAA opponents dot the OOC. This year's wasn't as sexy—thanks to St. Bonaventure crapping out on a deal and Richmond going down the toilet—but if this is as bad as it gets then I'd say that's still pretty good.
Being upset that the schedule doesn't live up to that poster's expectation only works if you can make a good argument, but quite frankly, that response read like a transcribed temper tantrum (which may not have been the poster's intent, but the all-caps is not good form and does in fact inform the message). Would fans be happier with four losses against P5 opponents than four wins against mid-majors? I don't know, but success is a paint that covers a multitude of sins, and failure is a highlighter. Plus look at how people here have gotten upset at ODU football not beating the power opponents that it has played so far, wondering why they should bother scheduling them (or in some cases even being FBS at all). Can't keep everyone happy.
I'll say this: Warts and all, I'll take ODU's basketball scheduling over most mid-major programs' (if nothing else, they're not scheduling games against D2/3/NAIA/USCAA teams on the regular).
Only problem that I have with your message is that you are acting like it is a forgone conclusion that if ODU played 4 power conference schools that they would lose all 4. While that may well be the case today, it was not so much the case just a short while ago when ODU was defeating schools like Georgetown and Va Tech on the road as well as at home. It seems that we had higher expectations back then.
I didn't mean to imply that losses to power-conference teams was all that ODU could hope for; I was drawing a comparison between two possibilities — 0-4 against powerful teams or 4-0 against mid-majors (Bowling Green and Towson more than Gonzaga and Wichita State). What would make fans happier? What would benefit the program more? The coaches? The players? And how would that change from year to year?
Obviously the best scenario in unbeaten against the best and the worst is winless against the worst, but since ODU will probably always be somewhere in the middle, what's the most likely good scenario to emerge from it?
As for higher expectations: When ODU was beating Virginia Tech, the Hokies generally sucked. They have a name but for many years that's all they had. Did they ever beat Georgetown at home? I know they beat them twice at their little on-campus gym.
Expectations are great but they have to be tempered by reality. ODU has never made a Sweet 16 and has only won three games in the NCAAs. ODU basketball at its peak was better than it is right now, but I wonder how much of this comparison to years past is affected by nostalgia goggles, and whether that informs how we see the program today (for whatever its flaws, I'd still take ODU from 2012-today and going forward over George Mason, even though they had a Final Four run, a top-25 ranking and NCAA win in 2011 and membership in the A-10).
RE: 2017 basketball - Cyniclone - 12-18-2017 02:28 PM
(12-18-2017 01:53 PM)ODUBB35 Wrote:(12-18-2017 01:43 PM)Gilesfan Wrote: We did something right because we are currently 69th in KenPom and 60th in RPI. That is approaching the conversation of at large opportunities.
For all the "we wont have any top 100 wins" criteria, we currently have 2 RPI top 100 wins. Towson (33) and Dayton (58).
Losses have been to 12 (Temple), 115 (VCU), and 122 (W&M).
Despite all the criticisms of the board, we had a solid and productive OOC this year.
That would be awesome, but we need to avoid one of those WTH losses in conference (ala, Southern Miss, UTSA). Our RPI is going to sink if we beat these teams, much less if we lose to one of them.
That's the biggest issue with CUSA as it's constructed now: The top teams will play at least a couple of games against teams they have no business losing to but will anyway because it's the second game of a 1,000-mile road trip. North Texas is a dangerous game because a) they've gotten better and b) Saturday game of a long trip. Ditto Louisiana Tech, though they're going to be a solid opponent no matter the circumstances; it doesn't help that they're the second game of the road swing. Like two years ago, when ODU beat them on the road Thursday, then lost to butt-ass Southern Miss two days later. It's an occupational hazard in this conference.
RE: 2017 basketball - ODU BBALL - 12-18-2017 09:00 PM
(12-18-2017 02:23 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:(12-18-2017 01:25 PM)ODU BBALL Wrote:(12-18-2017 12:50 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:(12-17-2017 09:40 AM)jasdf Wrote: 6 posts in a row in response to 1 post, yet none of the 6 actually contained a rebuttal...Just a ribbing about caps use. And these responses coming from some of the posters who openly detest posts void of content, yet here they are, content-less themselves. Comical at best.
Then here's a response that has nothing to do with CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL: ODU is a mid-major program, and the scheduling is going to reflect that. Most of the power-conference programs aren't going to play ODU in Norfolk. Your best bet is getting better mid-majors to play you, and quite frankly, the Monarchs have been pretty good about scheduling those games — lots of A-10 and CAA opponents dot the OOC. This year's wasn't as sexy—thanks to St. Bonaventure crapping out on a deal and Richmond going down the toilet—but if this is as bad as it gets then I'd say that's still pretty good.
Being upset that the schedule doesn't live up to that poster's expectation only works if you can make a good argument, but quite frankly, that response read like a transcribed temper tantrum (which may not have been the poster's intent, but the all-caps is not good form and does in fact inform the message). Would fans be happier with four losses against P5 opponents than four wins against mid-majors? I don't know, but success is a paint that covers a multitude of sins, and failure is a highlighter. Plus look at how people here have gotten upset at ODU football not beating the power opponents that it has played so far, wondering why they should bother scheduling them (or in some cases even being FBS at all). Can't keep everyone happy.
I'll say this: Warts and all, I'll take ODU's basketball scheduling over most mid-major programs' (if nothing else, they're not scheduling games against D2/3/NAIA/USCAA teams on the regular).
Only problem that I have with your message is that you are acting like it is a forgone conclusion that if ODU played 4 power conference schools that they would lose all 4. While that may well be the case today, it was not so much the case just a short while ago when ODU was defeating schools like Georgetown and Va Tech on the road as well as at home. It seems that we had higher expectations back then.
I didn't mean to imply that losses to power-conference teams was all that ODU could hope for; I was drawing a comparison between two possibilities — 0-4 against powerful teams or 4-0 against mid-majors (Bowling Green and Towson more than Gonzaga and Wichita State). What would make fans happier? What would benefit the program more? The coaches? The players? And how would that change from year to year?
Obviously the best scenario in unbeaten against the best and the worst is winless against the worst, but since ODU will probably always be somewhere in the middle, what's the most likely good scenario to emerge from it?
As for higher expectations: When ODU was beating Virginia Tech, the Hokies generally sucked. They have a name but for many years that's all they had. Did they ever beat Georgetown at home? I know they beat them twice at their little on-campus gym.
Expectations are great but they have to be tempered by reality. ODU has never made a Sweet 16 and has only won three games in the NCAAs. ODU basketball at its peak was better than it is right now, but I wonder how much of this comparison to years past is affected by nostalgia goggles, and whether that informs how we see the program today (for whatever its flaws, I'd still take ODU from 2012-today and going forward over George Mason, even though they had a Final Four run, a top-25 ranking and NCAA win in 2011 and membership in the A-10).
Your initial comment that I responded to merely said, "Would fans be happier with four losses against P5 opponents than four wins against mid-majors?".
VA Tech fits that. (5 wins)
Clemson fits that. (1 win)
Georgia fits that. (1 win)
Georgetown fits that. (2 wins)
Notre Dame fits that. (1 win)
That is at least 10 wins that ODU had against schools from P5 conferences from about 2004 to about 2011 under coach Taylor. During that same period they also had wins over some big name, non-P5 conference schools -St. Joes, Depaul, and VCU.
Since 2013 I know ODU has defeated LSU (P5 conference school), and had wins over some big name, non-P5 conference schools - St. John's, Rhode Island, and VCU.
All I am saying here is that we use to have a different feeling going into playing these bigger conference schools it seems to me.
Edit: I just happened to think ... Georgetown is in the Big East which isn't a P5 conference although for basketball it doesn't take a back seat to them. A win by ODU over any of the Big East teams would certainly rank high on the list of very nice wins (then or now), and Georgetown went to the Final Four one of those years that ODU defeated them up in DC.
RE: 2017 basketball - Mr.BigBlue - 12-19-2017 08:25 AM
Georgetown is happy with being the top team in the MEAC right now. I don't think we would be happy with that. I would much rather play P5 teams than NSU's. At least it is a road game that if we win it can be seen as a good win vs a home win against a bad team.
RE: 2017 basketball - 757ODU - 12-19-2017 08:32 AM
(12-19-2017 08:25 AM)Mr.BigBlue Wrote: Georgetown is happy with being the top team in the MEAC right now. I don't think we would be happy with that. I would much rather play P5 teams than NSU's. At least it is a road game that if we win it can be seen as a good win vs a home win against a bad team.
Whoever developed their schedule, is a joke. What an embarrassment to their program. How far have they fallen?
RE: 2017 basketball - Gilesfan - 12-19-2017 08:49 AM
(12-19-2017 08:32 AM)757ODU Wrote:(12-19-2017 08:25 AM)Mr.BigBlue Wrote: Georgetown is happy with being the top team in the MEAC right now. I don't think we would be happy with that. I would much rather play P5 teams than NSU's. At least it is a road game that if we win it can be seen as a good win vs a home win against a bad team.
Whoever developed their schedule, is a joke. What an embarrassment to their program. How far have they fallen?
Not everything is cut and dried. Ewing was left with nothing and they are going to have a rough conference schedule. The schedule was made to develop young players knowing a tourney appearance is not happening.
If they have the same schedule next year, they need to really reevaluate. I would guess one time thing.
RE: 2017 basketball - odu09 - 12-19-2017 09:37 AM
Here are some opponents that the Top 25 teams just played yesterday. RPI was from yesterday, before the results:
#2 Michigan State played Houston Baptist RPI #300.
#12 Gonzaga played IUPUI RPI #311.
#14 Kansas played Omaha RPI #277.
#15 TCU played Texas Southern #190.
#18 Arizona played North Dakota State #109.
#24 Florida State played Charleston Southern #321.
#25 Creighton played UT Arlington #59.
That was just one day. I wonder how upset these fanbases are that they aren't playing top quality teams every game? Good job by Creighton.
RE: 2017 basketball - 757ODU - 12-19-2017 09:47 AM
(12-19-2017 08:49 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:(12-19-2017 08:32 AM)757ODU Wrote:(12-19-2017 08:25 AM)Mr.BigBlue Wrote: Georgetown is happy with being the top team in the MEAC right now. I don't think we would be happy with that. I would much rather play P5 teams than NSU's. At least it is a road game that if we win it can be seen as a good win vs a home win against a bad team.
Whoever developed their schedule, is a joke. What an embarrassment to their program. How far have they fallen?
Not everything is cut and dried. Ewing was left with nothing and they are going to have a rough conference schedule. The schedule was made to develop young players knowing a tourney appearance is not happening.
If they have the same schedule next year, they need to really reevaluate. I would guess one time thing.
This is a thought I have never understood. If you are in a tough conference...Why wouldn't you challenge yourself before conference play? Throw these young guys into the fire and see what you have.
RE: 2017 basketball - Gilesfan - 12-19-2017 09:58 AM
(12-19-2017 09:47 AM)757ODU Wrote:(12-19-2017 08:49 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:(12-19-2017 08:32 AM)757ODU Wrote:(12-19-2017 08:25 AM)Mr.BigBlue Wrote: Georgetown is happy with being the top team in the MEAC right now. I don't think we would be happy with that. I would much rather play P5 teams than NSU's. At least it is a road game that if we win it can be seen as a good win vs a home win against a bad team.
Whoever developed their schedule, is a joke. What an embarrassment to their program. How far have they fallen?
Not everything is cut and dried. Ewing was left with nothing and they are going to have a rough conference schedule. The schedule was made to develop young players knowing a tourney appearance is not happening.
If they have the same schedule next year, they need to really reevaluate. I would guess one time thing.
This is a thought I have never understood. If you are in a tough conference...Why wouldn't you challenge yourself before conference play? Throw these young guys into the fire and see what you have.
Build confidence? Get experience under belt in lower pressure situations? Throw in freshman right off the bat vs Top teams might be counter productive.
RE: 2017 basketball - 757ODU - 12-19-2017 10:01 AM
(12-19-2017 09:58 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:(12-19-2017 09:47 AM)757ODU Wrote:(12-19-2017 08:49 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:(12-19-2017 08:32 AM)757ODU Wrote:(12-19-2017 08:25 AM)Mr.BigBlue Wrote: Georgetown is happy with being the top team in the MEAC right now. I don't think we would be happy with that. I would much rather play P5 teams than NSU's. At least it is a road game that if we win it can be seen as a good win vs a home win against a bad team.
Whoever developed their schedule, is a joke. What an embarrassment to their program. How far have they fallen?
Not everything is cut and dried. Ewing was left with nothing and they are going to have a rough conference schedule. The schedule was made to develop young players knowing a tourney appearance is not happening.
If they have the same schedule next year, they need to really reevaluate. I would guess one time thing.
This is a thought I have never understood. If you are in a tough conference...Why wouldn't you challenge yourself before conference play? Throw these young guys into the fire and see what you have.
Build confidence? Get experience under belt in lower pressure situations? Throw in freshman right off the bat vs Top teams might be counter productive.
Why not have a nice balance? They have the 3rd worst strength of schedule in the country.
RE: 2017 basketball - mac - 12-19-2017 10:02 AM
757, maybe Georgetown knew exactly what they had and that's why they built this years schedule this way. Maybe they didn't want to be 2-11 or whatever it would be entering conference play.
BTW, I remember John Thompson the elder scheduling lots of cupcakes in the old days, fwiw. Folks use to mock him, then they would end up in the Final Four or something crazy.
RE: 2017 basketball - 757ODU - 12-19-2017 10:06 AM
Also, they start 1 senior, 3 juniors, and a freshman.
RE: 2017 basketball - 757ODU - 12-19-2017 10:07 AM
(12-19-2017 10:02 AM)mac Wrote: 757, maybe Georgetown knew exactly what they had and that's why they built this years schedule this way. Maybe they didn't want to be 2-11 or whatever it would be entering conference play.
BTW, I remember John Thompson the elder scheduling lots of cupcakes in the old days, fwiw. Folks use to mock him, then they would end up in the Final Four or something crazy.
Mac, I can agree with scheduling to your roster, but for Georgetown to be 348 out of 351 leaving OOC play....
RE: 2017 basketball - ODU BBALL - 12-19-2017 10:08 AM
(12-19-2017 09:37 AM)odu09 Wrote: Here are some opponents that the Top 25 teams just played yesterday. RPI was from yesterday, before the results:
#2 Michigan State played Houston Baptist RPI #300.
#12 Gonzaga played IUPUI RPI #311.
#14 Kansas played Omaha RPI #277.
#15 TCU played Texas Southern #190.
#18 Arizona played North Dakota State #109.
#24 Florida State played Charleston Southern #321.
#25 Creighton played UT Arlington #59.
That was just one day. I wonder how upset these fanbases are that they aren't playing top quality teams every game? Good job by Creighton.
I can't speak for the fan base of any of these top rated teams, or for the ODU fan base. I can say that the difference between most of these rated teams and ODU is likely to be the following -
Most of these teams play in conferences that will have them playing quality teams in conference play throughout the 2nd half of the season. They don't have to play similar types of teams several times throughout the non-conference schedule to have played a strong schedule. They are all likely to have accumulated a few wins over some strong teams by the end of the season if for no other reason than that they are a very good team and had a few opportunities to do so. Those same two components are what used to provide ODU the strong opportunity to end the season with a win or two over teams that would be considered very nice wins.
Look, I'm not saying that ODU should be playing a different schedule this season from the one that they are. I don't think that they have been as strong of a team the past few seasons as the ODU teams of the 2004 - 2011 era that routinely racked up wins over bigger named opponents, won conference championships, and had several NCAA appearances. My only thought is why is it taking ODU so long to get back to that level? When/if they ever do then they should be playing a stronger out of conference schedule.