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OT the spread offense - rosewater - 06-22-2017 09:22 AM
Well I am back in the old rodeo of coaching middle school football. As an 80s football player, I am unfamiliar with the nuances of the spread attack. To me, it does not look like there are enough people to block a standard defense. Sure I can line the kids up in the correct positions, but I do not know what the greatest challenges will be. For instance, is there a trick to running out of the spread: motion, pulling lineman etc... Thanks in advance for all advice.
RE: OT the spread offense - pesik - 06-22-2017 09:29 AM
the spread actually makes it easier to run (talking auburn/ohio state not texas techs spread)...you stretch out the field so its hard for players to come and help (The spread)..tempo to catch defenses off-guard and to tire them..and incorporating a read-option, meaning they lose a defender as the qb is now an active runner and must be taken account for (not enough people to cover everyone)
the magic sauce is in the tempo and knowing the right balance without wearing out your defense aswell
RE: OT the spread offense - rosewater - 06-22-2017 09:38 AM
Thanks for the response Pesik!
RE: OT the spread offense - CoastalJuan - 06-22-2017 09:43 AM
(06-22-2017 09:22 AM)rosewater Wrote: Well I am back in the old rodeo of coaching middle school football. As an 80s football player, I am unfamiliar with the nuances of the spread attack. To me, it does not look like there are enough people to block a standard defense. Sure I can line the kids up in the correct positions, but I do not know what the greatest challenges will be. For instance, is there a trick to running out of the spread: motion, pulling lineman etc... Thanks in advance for all advice.
Basically, it will start out seeming like you don't have enough blockers. If you ditch your RB and go 5 wide. If you throw enough quick (very quick) screens to the outside, the defense will have to start dropping more guys into coverage if they don't want to keep letting you nickel and dime them all the way down the field.
RE: OT the spread offense - Hurricane Drummer - 06-22-2017 10:22 AM
Tulsa's spread offense stretches everyone out as wide as possible. This is intended to create man-on-man blocking match ups in the box. The tight end is a key element in the blocking scheme. He may not catch a lot of passes but he blocks a lot. Our TE usually gets lined up off the tackle or behind the OG/OT in more of a fullback position.
Basically you read the match ups and take what the defense gives you. If they show run D, you pass. If they show pass D, you run. Also, we run it just as much as we pass it. Keeps things balanced.
How this all translates to middle school level idk, but best of luck. Side note: I think it would be kind of cool if you had them running the triple option or wishbone just because no one sees that anymore. Especially younger kids. Or older kids like me lol
RE: OT the spread offense - invisiblehand - 06-22-2017 10:30 AM
There's a lot to be said about the read option out of the spread as well. That's what makes Tulsa's spread so deadly. Monty is excellent at teaching the QB and the RB what to look for at what he calls the "mesh point" (the point at which the qb decides if he's going to pull out the ball during the exchange between him and the tailback) That little instant is meant to keep the defensive lineman honest because they can't guarantee it's going to be a run or a pass. The QB should always have his eyes up before and during the exchange, reading the defense and his receivers. There are a couple cues on each play that our QB is looking for (especially pre-snap).
How far off are the CB's sagging? Is it man? Is it Zone? What kind of zone? Where are my safeties? If that LB comes on a blitz, do I need to switch the direction of the read option run so my RB can block if I pull the ball to throw? If that happens, there's a good chance that my slot receiver will come open quickly... etc..
If the defense drops back into one on one coverage in the backfield (plus safeties over top), chances are you're going to have a mismatch running the ball. That's when the QB has to turn his attention to the edge rusher. If you've got a QB with legs, he should start to read the defensive end (or whoever) is coming on the outside... if that DE crashes down (taking the RB) the QB should pull it and loop around one side of the line. If the DE stays wide (to block a QB run) then the QB should make the exchange where the RB can gain a big chunk up the middle.
So, really there are 6 to 7 unique movements the ball can make coming out of any given play. QB option run off tackle, RB up the middle, pass to one of the 4 receivers (or TE if you use one for blocking), then you also have the possibility of a swing pass or the RB screen.
RE: OT the spread offense - rosewater - 06-22-2017 10:43 AM
Great answers
All of the advice gives me a new perspective (only other perspective comes from a wishbone/veer option hs team).
RE: OT the spread offense - Underdog - 06-22-2017 10:58 AM
(06-22-2017 09:22 AM)rosewater Wrote: Well I am back in the old rodeo of coaching middle school football. As an 80s football player, I am unfamiliar with the nuances of the spread attack. To me, it does not look like there are enough people to block a standard defense. Sure I can line the kids up in the correct positions, but I do not know what the greatest challenges will be. For instance, is there a trick to running out of the spread: motion, pulling lineman etc... Thanks in advance for all advice.
It seems from reading your post that you aren’t sure if you have the players to run this type of offense. Your QB better be able to read the D properly and get the ball out quickly. The Oregon Ducks ran an up-tempo spread offense that mixed in the run pretty well when Chip Kelly was there. If you don’t have a reliable QB, you will end up with a lot of interceptions and likely your QB getting hurt. I would consider an up-tempo version of Navy’s offense if you have doubts about your players’ abilities. Nevertheless, may God bless you in your endeavor of making a positive impact in this world….
RE: OT the spread offense - NavyHusker - 06-22-2017 11:19 AM
(06-22-2017 09:22 AM)rosewater Wrote: Well I am back in the old rodeo of coaching middle school football. As an 80s football player, I am unfamiliar with the nuances of the spread attack. To me, it does not look like there are enough people to block a standard defense. Sure I can line the kids up in the correct positions, but I do not know what the greatest challenges will be. For instance, is there a trick to running out of the spread: motion, pulling lineman etc... Thanks in advance for all advice.
It kind of depends upon what you want to do. "The spread" can mean something different depending upon the audience who hears it. Paul Johnson calls his offense the spread while others called it the flexbone. WVU had a different version of a spread offense. Same is true for lots of teams.
The spread IMHO is simply a philosophy of trying to force the defense to defend the entire field. How you then make them defend that is the key. You can do it by either passing or running or both. I would suggest that you need to evaluate what type of players your team has. Army tried a pro style offense that was a disaster of an experiment. Not because the offense doesn't work, they just couldn't field the talent necessary to execute that offensive scheme. Fit your offense around the type of players you have. If you don't have a QB who can pass well, then you probably shouldn't try a west coast style spread offense.
Good luck.
RE: OT the spread offense - Underdog - 06-22-2017 11:24 AM
(06-22-2017 11:19 AM)NavyHusker Wrote:(06-22-2017 09:22 AM)rosewater Wrote: Well I am back in the old rodeo of coaching middle school football. As an 80s football player, I am unfamiliar with the nuances of the spread attack. To me, it does not look like there are enough people to block a standard defense. Sure I can line the kids up in the correct positions, but I do not know what the greatest challenges will be. For instance, is there a trick to running out of the spread: motion, pulling lineman etc... Thanks in advance for all advice.
It kind of depends upon what you want to do. "The spread" can mean something different depending upon the audience who hears it. Paul Johnson calls his offense the spread while others called it the flexbone. WVU had a different version of a spread offense. Same is true for lots of teams.
The spread IMHO is simply a philosophy of trying to force the defense to defend the entire field. How you then make them defend that is the key. You can do it by either passing or running or both. I would suggest that you need to evaluate what type of players your team has. Army tried a pro style offense that was a disaster of an experiment. Not because the offense doesn't work, they just couldn't field the talent necessary to execute that offensive scheme. Fit your offense around the type of players you have. If you don't have a QB who can pass well, then you probably shouldn't try a west coast style spread offense.
Good luck.
Spot on advice!
RE: OT the spread offense - invisiblehand - 06-22-2017 11:35 AM
Personally, I think you should adopt the philosophy, Always on-side-kick and always go for 2.
RE: OT the spread offense - invisiblehand - 06-22-2017 11:44 AM
(06-22-2017 11:19 AM)NavyHusker Wrote:(06-22-2017 09:22 AM)rosewater Wrote: Well I am back in the old rodeo of coaching middle school football. As an 80s football player, I am unfamiliar with the nuances of the spread attack. To me, it does not look like there are enough people to block a standard defense. Sure I can line the kids up in the correct positions, but I do not know what the greatest challenges will be. For instance, is there a trick to running out of the spread: motion, pulling lineman etc... Thanks in advance for all advice.
It kind of depends upon what you want to do. "The spread" can mean something different depending upon the audience who hears it. Paul Johnson calls his offense the spread while others called it the flexbone. WVU had a different version of a spread offense. Same is true for lots of teams.
The spread IMHO is simply a philosophy of trying to force the defense to defend the entire field. How you then make them defend that is the key. You can do it by either passing or running or both. I would suggest that you need to evaluate what type of players your team has. Army tried a pro style offense that was a disaster of an experiment. Not because the offense doesn't work, they just couldn't field the talent necessary to execute that offensive scheme. Fit your offense around the type of players you have. If you don't have a QB who can pass well, then you probably shouldn't try a west coast style spread offense.
Good luck.
Not that I want the kids to lose games, but you're going to find a lot more HS ranks running spread offenses than things like the triple option. Maybe it would be smarter for the kids' development to play them in a system that they are more likely to play in later years. It will teach them fundamentals of the style of play they are more likely to see in years to come.
If you're just going for wins... then choosing an offense that defenses don't see much might make sense. But if you actually want to prepare the kids to play later on, maybe you should go with the more popular offense. Not every one of the kids that play for you is going to end up at Navy.
RE: OT the spread offense - invisiblehand - 06-22-2017 11:59 AM
Oh, and Rosewater, as far as the blocking is concerned, remember that for each receiver you put on the field it either means one more CB to guard him, or a mismatch of WR vs LB. That usually means the other team can only run a Middle LB on defense unless they have some athletically talented OLB's. That should help with blocking. Against the 4 WR spread you'll see a lot of Nickel (3 CB, 2 LB) or Dime (4 CB, 1 LB) defenses. If you run 3 WR's + TE then you'll probably see Nickel (3 CB, 2 LB) or the traditional 4-3 front (2 CB, 3 LB).
Whether the other team puts a linebacker on one of your slot receivers can kind of tell you:
1. They are giving you the mismatch in the slot because they think they can make up for it with athleticism and scheme
or
2. They are scared of the run and they feel that they need to be able to bring a big guy in for run support should your QB or RB keep the ball on the ground.
You can use those two ideas to your advantage.
RE: OT the spread offense - rosewater - 06-22-2017 11:59 AM
(06-22-2017 11:19 AM)NavyHusker Wrote:(06-22-2017 09:22 AM)rosewater Wrote: Well I am back in the old rodeo of coaching middle school football. As an 80s football player, I am unfamiliar with the nuances of the spread attack. To me, it does not look like there are enough people to block a standard defense. Sure I can line the kids up in the correct positions, but I do not know what the greatest challenges will be. For instance, is there a trick to running out of the spread: motion, pulling lineman etc... Thanks in advance for all advice.
It kind of depends upon what you want to do. "The spread" can mean something different depending upon the audience who hears it. Paul Johnson calls his offense the spread while others called it the flexbone. WVU had a different version of a spread offense. Same is true for lots of teams.
The spread IMHO is simply a philosophy of trying to force the defense to defend the entire field. How you then make them defend that is the key. You can do it by either passing or running or both. I would suggest that you need to evaluate what type of players your team has. Army tried a pro style offense that was a disaster of an experiment. Not because the offense doesn't work, they just couldn't field the talent necessary to execute that offensive scheme. Fit your offense around the type of players you have. If you don't have a QB who can pass well, then you probably shouldn't try a west coast style spread offense.
Good luck.
Personally I would never run a spread due to my ignorance, but our prime objective is to prepare them for high school. Consequently we will have a very smart athletic kid that screams quarterback
RE: OT the spread offense - CoastalJuan - 06-22-2017 12:08 PM
(06-22-2017 10:30 AM)invisiblehand Wrote: There's a lot to be said about the read option out of the spread as well. That's what makes Tulsa's spread so deadly. Monty is excellent at teaching the QB and the RB what to look for at what he calls the "mesh point" (the point at which the qb decides if he's going to pull out the ball during the exchange between him and the tailback) That little instant is meant to keep the defensive lineman honest because they can't guarantee it's going to be a run or a pass. The QB should always have his eyes up before and during the exchange, reading the defense and his receivers. There are a couple cues on each play that our QB is looking for (especially pre-snap).
This.
An easy way to run this is to put 2 WRs out left, stack 2 WRs (including your best playmaker) wide right, and position your RB intermediate right. When the ball is snapped to the QB in shotgun, send the RB across the formation (right to left, crossing in front of the QB). If the strong side linebacker follows the RB, throw it to your WR out right who also has another WR blocking. If the Sam doesn't bite, hand it off.
RE: OT the spread offense - Underdog - 06-22-2017 12:23 PM
(06-22-2017 11:44 AM)invisiblehand Wrote:(06-22-2017 11:19 AM)NavyHusker Wrote:(06-22-2017 09:22 AM)rosewater Wrote: Well I am back in the old rodeo of coaching middle school football. As an 80s football player, I am unfamiliar with the nuances of the spread attack. To me, it does not look like there are enough people to block a standard defense. Sure I can line the kids up in the correct positions, but I do not know what the greatest challenges will be. For instance, is there a trick to running out of the spread: motion, pulling lineman etc... Thanks in advance for all advice.
It kind of depends upon what you want to do. "The spread" can mean something different depending upon the audience who hears it. Paul Johnson calls his offense the spread while others called it the flexbone. WVU had a different version of a spread offense. Same is true for lots of teams.
The spread IMHO is simply a philosophy of trying to force the defense to defend the entire field. How you then make them defend that is the key. You can do it by either passing or running or both. I would suggest that you need to evaluate what type of players your team has. Army tried a pro style offense that was a disaster of an experiment. Not because the offense doesn't work, they just couldn't field the talent necessary to execute that offensive scheme. Fit your offense around the type of players you have. If you don't have a QB who can pass well, then you probably shouldn't try a west coast style spread offense.
Good luck.
Not that I want the kids to lose games, but you're going to find a lot more HS ranks running spread offenses than things like the triple option. Maybe it would be smarter for the kids' development to play them in a system that they are more likely to play in later years. It will teach them fundamentals of the style of play they are more likely to see in years to come.
If you're just going for wins... then choosing an offense that defenses don't see much might make sense. But if you actually want to prepare the kids to play later on, maybe you should go with the more popular offense. Not every one of the kids that play for you is going to end up at Navy.
...which makes it harder to defend and simple to start with as a new head coach. He can still add more passing plays and change up the offense as he learns more about his players' abilities...
RE: OT the spread offense - Underdog - 06-22-2017 12:37 PM
(06-22-2017 11:59 AM)rosewater Wrote:(06-22-2017 11:19 AM)NavyHusker Wrote:(06-22-2017 09:22 AM)rosewater Wrote: Well I am back in the old rodeo of coaching middle school football. As an 80s football player, I am unfamiliar with the nuances of the spread attack. To me, it does not look like there are enough people to block a standard defense. Sure I can line the kids up in the correct positions, but I do not know what the greatest challenges will be. For instance, is there a trick to running out of the spread: motion, pulling lineman etc... Thanks in advance for all advice.
It kind of depends upon what you want to do. "The spread" can mean something different depending upon the audience who hears it. Paul Johnson calls his offense the spread while others called it the flexbone. WVU had a different version of a spread offense. Same is true for lots of teams.
The spread IMHO is simply a philosophy of trying to force the defense to defend the entire field. How you then make them defend that is the key. You can do it by either passing or running or both. I would suggest that you need to evaluate what type of players your team has. Army tried a pro style offense that was a disaster of an experiment. Not because the offense doesn't work, they just couldn't field the talent necessary to execute that offensive scheme. Fit your offense around the type of players you have. If you don't have a QB who can pass well, then you probably shouldn't try a west coast style spread offense.
Good luck.
Personally I would never run a spread due to my ignorance, but our prime objective is to prepare them for high school. Consequently we will have a very smart athletic kid that screams quarterback
If that's your goal, invisiblehand's read option suggestion would be the way to go in my opinion.
RE: OT the spread offense - DownEastPirate - 06-22-2017 12:57 PM
I'm not sure why someone would feel the need to over complicate middle school football. There's absolutely no need for the spread IMO, especially a passing spread. The most successful middle school team around Eastern NC has always run a wishbone or triple option. Find your best three or four players, put them as QB and the other back positions and go run the ball. Especially with younger kids, the less they think the faster they go.
That middle school I refer to has had multiple players played for them who went on to high school state championships, high level D1 teams, MLB teams, NFL teams etc.
All you have to do at that level is out athlete them.
RE: OT the spread offense - Hurricane Drummer - 06-22-2017 01:41 PM
Are we going to get game film to review and game plan for our boys each week of the season?
RE: OT the spread offense - DownEastPirate - 06-22-2017 01:43 PM
(06-22-2017 01:41 PM)Hurricane Drummer Wrote: Are we going to get game film to review and game plan for our boys each week of the season?
lol now that'd probably be a first. Would we be listed in the yearbook as part of the coaching staff??