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May 4, 2012: the date that changed G5 History - Fighting Muskie - 02-22-2017 06:19 PM
In lieu of the public desire of UTEP and Rice to move out of C-USA and into the MWC I was curious as to if there was a point where they could have made the move and altered not only their own destinies but those of several other G5 programs. It seems that on May 4, 2012 was the day that that window shut.
By this point C-USA was down to 8 schools: Marshall, ECU, UAB, USM, Tulane, Rice, Tulsa, and UTEP.
The MWC was down to 7 and FB affiliate Hawaii: Fresno St, Nevada, UNLV, Wyoming, Colorado St, Air Force, and New Mexico.
There had already been talks and an announcement of a merger/alliance between the MWC and C-USA but the hang up was the basketball credits. At this juncture, Rice and UTEP could have simply joined the MWC they could be sitting there comfortable right now and the G5 landscape would have looked radically different.
On May 4, 2014 was the day that the MWC added Utah St and San Jose St instead of the two aforementioned schools and which C-USA announced UTSA, LA Tech, UNT, FIU, and Charlotte's impending membership (ODU followed shortly). These moves sealed UTEP and Rice's fates.
Here's how things might have turned out:
The MWC stays at 10 and continues to remain in talks with Boise St and SDSU and ultimately get them back.
Rice and UTEP's departure leaves C-USA with just Tulsa, Tulane, UAB, USM, ECU, and Marshall, two of which will leave in November. Would this group expanded differently or possibly collapsed?
At this point the WAC still had Idaho, NMSU, SJSU, Utah St, Texas St, UTSA, LA Tech, and non-FB members Denver, Seattle, and UTA.
The SBC line up was UNT, ULL, ULM, Ark St, Troy, USA, MTSU, WKU, GA St, FAU, FIU, and non-FB member UALR.
ODU, Charlotte, GA Southern, and App St were all still FCS.
Maybe WAC football somehow survives.
RE: May 4, 2012: the date that changed G5 History - Soobahk40050 - 02-22-2017 06:45 PM
Fascinating. Interesting questions for sure.
You said MWC stays at ten and stays in talks with Boise/SDSU. 7+UTEP+Rice = 9. Who would the other school be?
C-USA would be left with: Marshall, ECU, UAB, and USM. Perhaps UABs football does go away for good.
If Utah State and SJSU stay, the conference is:
USU, SJSU, Idaho, NMSU, Texas State, UTSA, and LT (7 schools). Can WAC convince Big Sky schools at that point? Perhaps they can grab UNT themselves? Grab the Dakota schools? Take Stephen F. Austin/Lamar/Sam Houston State (Abilene, Houston Baptist, and Incarnate Word had not moved yet).
Let's say that the Big Sky schools stay but UNT does move. 8 schools, and Denver/Seattle/UTA for basketball = a 20 game round robin. 7 conference games is tricky, most would not have an issue scheduling. Does MWC later come back to Utah St/SJSU anyway? Maybe not at that point with larger G5 leagues hindering individual school payouts.
SB now has: ULL, ULM, Ark St, Troy, USA, MTSU, WKU, Ga St, FAU, FIU. 10 schools and no need for FCS upgrades: they can take any or all of Marshall/ECU/UAB/USM or none.
RE: May 4, 2012: the date that changed G5 History - billybobby777 - 02-22-2017 06:52 PM
(02-22-2017 06:19 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote: In lieu of the public desire of UTEP and Rice to move out of C-USA and into the MWC I was curious as to if there was a point where they could have made the move and altered not only their own destinies but those of several other G5 programs. It seems that on May 4, 2012 was the day that that window shut.
By this point C-USA was down to 8 schools: Marshall, ECU, UAB, USM, Tulane, Rice, Tulsa, and UTEP.
The MWC was down to 7 and FB affiliate Hawaii: Fresno St, Nevada, UNLV, Wyoming, Colorado St, Air Force, and Hawaii.
There had already been talks and an announcement of a merger/alliance between the MWC and C-USA but the hang up was the basketball credits. At this juncture, Rice and UTEP could have simply joined the MWC they could be sitting there comfortable right now and the G5 landscape would have looked radically different.
On May 4, 2014 was the day that the MWC added Utah St and San Jose St instead of the two aforementioned schools and which C-USA announced UTSA, LA Tech, UNT, FIU, and Charlotte's impending membership (ODU followed shortly). These moves sealed UTEP and Rice's fates.
Here's how things might have turned out:
The MWC stays at 10 and continues to remain in talks with Boise St and SDSU and ultimately get them back.
Rice and UTEP's departure leaves C-USA with just Tulsa, Tulane, UAB, USM, ECU, and Marshall, two of which will leave in November. Would this group expanded differently or possibly collapsed?
At this point the WAC still had Idaho, NMSU, SJSU, Utah St, Texas St, UTSA, LA Tech, and non-FB members Denver, Seattle, and UTA.
The SBC line up was UNT, ULL, ULM, Ark St, Troy, USA, MTSU, WKU, GA St, FAU, FIU, and non-FB member UALR.
ODU, Charlotte, GA Southern, and App St were all still FCS.
Maybe WAC football somehow survives.
Correction: on May 4, 2012 The MWC wasn't down to 7, they were down to 8. You forgot New Mexico. Also CUSA had already agreed to add Charlotte, UTSA, Florida International. North Texas and Louisiana Tech by then.
Cheers!
RE: May 4, 2012: the date that changed G5 History - Fighting Muskie - 02-22-2017 09:00 PM
My apologies, I listed Hawaii twice when I meant to include New Mexico but my count was right--7 members for the MWC and 1 affiliate. The addition of Rice, UTEP, SDSU, and Boise St brings them to the same 11/12 set up they have now.
As for the May 4 date that was the day both the MWC and C-USA announced their membership additions so C-USA had not made the big expansion yet.
At this juncture I think it becomes a race among the 6 member C-USA, 7/10 member WAC, and 11/12 member C-USA to who can raid whom. If C-USA is unable to reach a decision by the end of November it becomes a 4 member C-USA.
Perhaps the Sunbelt holds firm until November when ECU and Tulane were announced and was in the position to extend offers to Marshall, UAB, USM, and Tulsa.
Ultimately I think a few schools end up in a position of power and can decide which leagues live and which one dies. LA Tech, UTSA, and UNT could really sway things. Maybe the WAC is able to lure UNT, Ark St, ULL, USM, and UAB into their camp
RE: May 4, 2012: the date that changed G5 History - billybobby777 - 02-22-2017 09:18 PM
(02-22-2017 09:00 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote: My apologies, I listed Hawaii twice when I meant to include New Mexico but my count was right--7 members for the MWC and 1 affiliate. The addition of Rice, UTEP, SDSU, and Boise St brings them to the same 11/12 set up they have now.
As for the May 4 date that was the day both the MWC and C-USA announced their membership additions so C-USA had not made the big expansion yet.
At this juncture I think it becomes a race among the 6 member C-USA, 7/10 member WAC, and 11/12 member C-USA to who can raid whom. If C-USA is unable to reach a decision by the end of November it becomes a 4 member C-USA.
Perhaps the Sunbelt holds firm until November when ECU and Tulane were announced and was in the position to extend offers to Marshall, UAB, USM, and Tulsa.
Ultimately I think a few schools end up in a position of power and can decide which leagues live and which one dies. LA Tech, UTSA, and UNT could really sway things. Maybe the WAC is able to lure UNT, Ark St, ULL, USM, and UAB into their camp
The whole thing statrtd in June of 2010 when Utah took the PAC invite and Boise took the MWC invite. It could have stopped there IMHO with all of MWC, WAC and CUSA surviving. BYU going Indy caused absolute panic. Suddenly the MWC started inviting schools they had shunned for years...simply to survive. I suppose the Big East could of collapsed with the teams with options going to the ACC and backfilling the Big 12 and USF and Cincinnati could have have then just came back home to CUSA. I loved CUSA from 1996 to 2012. The MWC from 1999 to 2011 was a very underrated conference too. (Sigh)
Cheers!
RE: May 4, 2012: the date that changed G5 History - arkstfan - 02-23-2017 11:43 AM
To me the more interesting question is what if Tulane and ECU leave CUSA before the mega-spansion takes place when they added Charlotte, UNT, FIU, UTSA, La.Tech, and ODU. Dynamic in the room ends up being very different. If ACC snags Louisville earlier and Tulsa also departs before the vote then it gets crazy interesting.
RE: May 4, 2012: the date that changed G5 History - XLance - 02-23-2017 12:17 PM
(02-22-2017 06:19 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote: In lieu of the public desire of UTEP and Rice to move out of C-USA and into the MWC I was curious as to if there was a point where they could have made the move and altered not only their own destinies but those of several other G5 programs. It seems that on May 4, 2012 was the day that that window shut.
By this point C-USA was down to 8 schools: Marshall, ECU, UAB, USM, Tulane, Rice, Tulsa, and UTEP.
The MWC was down to 7 and FB affiliate Hawaii: Fresno St, Nevada, UNLV, Wyoming, Colorado St, Air Force, and New Mexico.
There had already been talks and an announcement of a merger/alliance between the MWC and C-USA but the hang up was the basketball credits. At this juncture, Rice and UTEP could have simply joined the MWC they could be sitting there comfortable right now and the G5 landscape would have looked radically different.
On May 4, 2014 was the day that the MWC added Utah St and San Jose St instead of the two aforementioned schools and which C-USA announced UTSA, LA Tech, UNT, FIU, and Charlotte's impending membership (ODU followed shortly). These moves sealed UTEP and Rice's fates.
Here's how things might have turned out:
The MWC stays at 10 and continues to remain in talks with Boise St and SDSU and ultimately get them back.
Rice and UTEP's departure leaves C-USA with just Tulsa, Tulane, UAB, USM, ECU, and Marshall, two of which will leave in November. Would this group expanded differently or possibly collapsed?
At this point the WAC still had Idaho, NMSU, SJSU, Utah St, Texas St, UTSA, LA Tech, and non-FB members Denver, Seattle, and UTA.
The SBC line up was UNT, ULL, ULM, Ark St, Troy, USA, MTSU, WKU, GA St, FAU, FIU, and non-FB member UALR.
ODU, Charlotte, GA Southern, and App St were all still FCS.
Maybe WAC football somehow survives.
May 4, 1970 was not such a good day.
RE: May 4, 2012: the date that changed G5 History - Wedge - 02-23-2017 12:28 PM
(02-22-2017 09:00 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote: My apologies, I listed Hawaii twice when I meant to include New Mexico but my count was right--7 members for the MWC and 1 affiliate.
For political reasons, MWC was going to offer lifelines out of the WAC to SJSU and USU regardless of what happened with CUSA or anyone else. If UTEP or Rice wanted in at that time, they had to wait in line behind SJSU and USU. And the MWC didn't want to add more teams because they figured Boise and SDSU would return:
Quote:When the MWC announced this past summer it was adding San Jose State and Utah State to replace Boise State and San Diego State, MWC commissioner Craig Thompson said then the league purposely didn't expand past 10 in case the Broncos and Aztecs had a change of heart.from http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/8653727/boise-state-broncos-sdsu-aztecs-byu-cougars-talk-mwc-return-sources-say
RE: May 4, 2012: the date that changed G5 History - MJG - 02-23-2017 12:39 PM
Think about how different realignment would be if rules didn't keep changing. All G5 conferences would probably be at ten except the MAC.the WAC would still be an FBS CONFERENCE. Even something as recent as Liberty's waiver might have influenced schools .
I think the P5 moves still happen for their networks.
Sent from my SM-J700T using CSNbbs mobile app
RE: May 4, 2012: the date that changed G5 History - UTEPDallas - 02-23-2017 01:53 PM
(02-23-2017 12:28 PM)Wedge Wrote:(02-22-2017 09:00 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote: My apologies, I listed Hawaii twice when I meant to include New Mexico but my count was right--7 members for the MWC and 1 affiliate.
For political reasons, MWC was going to offer lifelines out of the WAC to SJSU and USU regardless of what happened with CUSA or anyone else. If UTEP or Rice wanted in at that time, they had to wait in line behind SJSU and USU. And the MWC didn't want to add more teams because they figured Boise and SDSU would return:
Quote:When the MWC announced this past summer it was adding San Jose State and Utah State to replace Boise State and San Diego State, MWC commissioner Craig Thompson said then the league purposely didn't expand past 10 in case the Broncos and Aztecs had a change of heart.from http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/8653727/boise-state-broncos-sdsu-aztecs-byu-cougars-talk-mwc-return-sources-say
From what I remember is SJSU got in the second UTEP said either "thanks but no thanks" or "let me think about it". Had UTEP said yes at the time, SJSU would've been left in the cold in the WAC with Idaho and NMSU. Utah State fans and insiders said at the time the MWC offered USU and UTEP first with SJSU and NMSU as back up in case either one or both declined. Another rumor was when Boise State decided to go back to the MWC, the conference gave a one month ultimatum to San Diego State to make up their minds otherwise they were going to call UTEP who by then wanted to get out of C-USA really bad. SDSU already found a home in the Big West and still wanted football only membership in the American but probably the AAC showed them the door so they had no other choice but to take the MWC's ultimatum.
UTEP's AD and President never confirmed nor denied this rumor so take it FWIW. Both were very open about being reunited with the MWC schools in the planned MWC/C-USA merger so I think Utah State fans were right on that assessment.
RE: May 4, 2012: the date that changed G5 History - Wedge - 02-23-2017 03:08 PM
(02-23-2017 01:53 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote: Another rumor was when Boise State decided to go back to the MWC, the conference gave a one month ultimatum to San Diego State to make up their minds otherwise they were going to call UTEP who by then wanted to get out of C-USA really bad.
When Boise returned (decided to stay), SDSU was given a January 31, 2013 deadline by the MWC.
http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/aztecs/sdut-big-east-meeting-does-nothing-to-resolve-2013jan11-story.html
Quote:As part of Boise State’s agreement to stay in the Mountain West, it included a clause that SDSU gets “right of first option” to stay as well, with a Jan. 31 deadline to accept or reject an offer to become the conference’s 12th football member.
RE: May 4, 2012: the date that changed G5 History - UTEPDallas - 02-23-2017 03:28 PM
Thanks Wedge, so it was not a rumor then.
RE: May 4, 2012: the date that changed G5 History - p23570 - 02-23-2017 11:12 PM
Don't sleep on Rice. A conference like the B1G who doesn't really need more brands but a trip to Houston would be nice and academics excite presidents and could easily end up with them. I have no doubt if the PAC or B1G wanted 2 schools in Texas rice would be #2.
At the very least I hope they end up in the AAC. Academically they deserve Tulsa and Tulane.
RE: May 4, 2012: the date that changed G5 History - billybobby777 - 02-24-2017 11:59 PM
(02-22-2017 09:00 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote: My apologies, I listed Hawaii twice when I meant to include New Mexico but my count was right--7 members for the MWC and 1 affiliate. The addition of Rice, UTEP, SDSU, and Boise St brings them to the same 11/12 set up they have now.
As for the May 4 date that was the day both the MWC and C-USA announced their membership additions so C-USA had not made the big expansion yet.
At this juncture I think it becomes a race among the 6 member C-USA, 7/10 member WAC, and 11/12 member C-USA to who can raid whom. If C-USA is unable to reach a decision by the end of November it becomes a 4 member C-USA.
Perhaps the Sunbelt holds firm until November when ECU and Tulane were announced and was in the position to extend offers to Marshall, UAB, USM, and Tulsa.
Ultimately I think a few schools end up in a position of power and can decide which leagues live and which one dies. LA Tech, UTSA, and UNT could really sway things. Maybe the WAC is able to lure UNT, Ark St, ULL, USM, and UAB into their camp
No apologies needed. I do remember being surprised that the MWC invited SJSU and Utah St. I always assumed UTEP would end up with their longtime rivals, UNM, CSU, Wyoming, AF, UNLV and SDSU in the MWC. Those 7 plus BYU seem to go together.
Cheers!
RE: May 4, 2012: the date that changed G5 History - Captain Bearcat - 02-25-2017 02:03 AM
(02-23-2017 12:28 PM)Wedge Wrote:(02-22-2017 09:00 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote: My apologies, I listed Hawaii twice when I meant to include New Mexico but my count was right--7 members for the MWC and 1 affiliate.
For political reasons, MWC was going to offer lifelines out of the WAC to SJSU and USU regardless of what happened with CUSA or anyone else. If UTEP or Rice wanted in at that time, they had to wait in line behind SJSU and USU. And the MWC didn't want to add more teams because they figured Boise and SDSU would return:
Quote:When the MWC announced this past summer it was adding San Jose State and Utah State to replace Boise State and San Diego State, MWC commissioner Craig Thompson said then the league purposely didn't expand past 10 in case the Broncos and Aztecs had a change of heart.from http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/8653727/boise-state-broncos-sdsu-aztecs-byu-cougars-talk-mwc-return-sources-say
Why would Utah State and San Jose State need lifelines out of the WAC? The WAC probably would have stuck around if they hadn't left.
RE: May 4, 2012: the date that changed G5 History - Wedge - 02-25-2017 02:32 AM
(02-25-2017 02:03 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:(02-23-2017 12:28 PM)Wedge Wrote:(02-22-2017 09:00 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote: My apologies, I listed Hawaii twice when I meant to include New Mexico but my count was right--7 members for the MWC and 1 affiliate.
For political reasons, MWC was going to offer lifelines out of the WAC to SJSU and USU regardless of what happened with CUSA or anyone else. If UTEP or Rice wanted in at that time, they had to wait in line behind SJSU and USU. And the MWC didn't want to add more teams because they figured Boise and SDSU would return:
Quote:When the MWC announced this past summer it was adding San Jose State and Utah State to replace Boise State and San Diego State, MWC commissioner Craig Thompson said then the league purposely didn't expand past 10 in case the Broncos and Aztecs had a change of heart.from http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/8653727/boise-state-broncos-sdsu-aztecs-byu-cougars-talk-mwc-return-sources-say
Why would Utah State and San Jose State need lifelines out of the WAC? The WAC probably would have stuck around if they hadn't left.
La Tech and UTSA were joining Conference USA. Texas State had made a deal to join the Sun Belt. These moves were negotiated in the same time period as the USU/SJSU move, and IIRC were all announced the same week. The WAC had already tried and failed to convince other FCS programs to move to FBS and join the WAC. If USU and SJSU had not been invited to the MWC, there would have been only 4 WAC football teams left, and USU and SJSU would have been up the creek without a paddle just like NMSU and Idaho.
RE: May 4, 2012: the date that changed G5 History - Kittonhead - 02-25-2017 12:52 PM
It's hard to believe its been 5 years since all of this went down.
RE: May 4, 2012: the date that changed G5 History - Attackcoog - 02-25-2017 07:03 PM
(02-23-2017 11:12 PM)p23570 Wrote: Don't sleep on Rice. A conference like the B1G who doesn't really need more brands but a trip to Houston would be nice and academics excite presidents and could easily end up with them. I have no doubt if the PAC or B1G wanted 2 schools in Texas rice would be #2.
At the very least I hope they end up in the AAC. Academically they deserve Tulsa and Tulane.
Of the Big 12 can add them when Texas leaves.
RE: May 4, 2012: the date that changed G5 History - p23570 - 02-25-2017 10:02 PM
(02-25-2017 07:03 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:(02-23-2017 11:12 PM)p23570 Wrote: Don't sleep on Rice. A conference like the B1G who doesn't really need more brands but a trip to Houston would be nice and academics excite presidents and could easily end up with them. I have no doubt if the PAC or B1G wanted 2 schools in Texas rice would be #2.
At the very least I hope they end up in the AAC. Academically they deserve Tulsa and Tulane.
Of the Big 12 can add them when Texas leaves.
What incentive would Texas have to leave?
RE: May 4, 2012: the date that changed G5 History - p23570 - 02-25-2017 10:04 PM
(02-25-2017 12:52 PM)Kittonhead Wrote: It's hard to believe its been 5 years since all of this went down.
![[Image: t1larg.martin.cooper.jpg]](http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/TECH/mobile/07/09/cooper.cell.phone.inventor/t1larg.martin.cooper.jpg)