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Reconsidering the 8-team playoff model - allthatyoucantleavebehind - 11-24-2016 02:30 AM
I'm generally NOT in favor of an 8-team playoff. The first two years of the CFP didn't change that thought at all. Overall, I worry that it’ll dilute the regular season…and CFP has the BEST regular season in American sports.
The two "best" models I've seen are A) semifinals the weekend after CCGs at the higher seed's home field and B) Frank the Tank's model (basically a plus-3), where you play the quarterfinals in the current bowls; the semifinals get played 10 days later; and then the finals are the Sunday before the Super Bowl week.
Frank's model so substantially changes the "end" of the season that I don't think it will be granted "political" cover in this current "concussion-sensitive" AND “amateur athletics” climate.
I think model A fits better...but NOT the week after the CCGs. Teams could not pull off the travel that fast...the media would want to build up the hype for the games longer. And to resolve the "bowl placement issue" I think you simply save a spot for losers in the New Year's Six (Seven). Would this kill some fan travel to bowl games? Absolutely. But bowls are mostly about TV viewership anyway...so I don't think this is a deal breaker. You are still keeping the top 13-15 teams in the country in games versus each other.
Teasing it out below...interested in your thoughts on what makes it good/bad. (Using CBS's current bowl projections and this week’s CFP poll...and assuming all higher seeds win remaining games…)
Quarterfinals...Friday Dec 16 and Saturday Dec 17.
#8 WMU (G5 rep) at #1 Alabama (SEC champ) (8pm FRIDAY)
#7 OU (Big 12 champ) at #2 OSU (at-large) (1pm SAT)
#6 Michigan (at-large) at #3 Clemson (ACC champ) (5pm SAT)
#5 Penn State (Big Ten champ) at #4 Washington (Pac12 champ) (9pm SAT)
BOWL GAMES
Orange—Louisville (ACC). vs. CFP loser
Rose—Wisconsin (Big Ten) vs. USC (Pac12)
Cotton—CFP loser vs. CFP loser
Sugar—Auburn (SEC) vs. Oklahoma State (Big 12)
*Citrus—Florida State (at-large) vs. CFP loser
CFP Semifinals
Peach and Fiesta. 1/8 winner vs. 4/5 winner. 2/7 winner vs. 3/6 winner.
*to allow for a place for all quarterfinal losers and continue conference guarantees, an additional bowl will need to be created in the New Year’s Six (now Seven)
RE: Reconsidering the 8-team playoff model - Hokie Mark - 11-24-2016 07:07 AM
I'm not sure the CFP losers would want to play a second post-season game.
Timing of the playoff rounds looks good, though. It even works for the Army/Navy game.
RE: Reconsidering the 8-team playoff model - allthatyoucantleavebehind - 11-24-2016 08:22 AM
I think that Army/Navy game needs to move. I think that's going to come up this year...because Navy's bowl fate might depend on their 12th game with Army. But that's kind of beside the point...
I agree that their motivation will be way down if they lose the CFP quarters.
Counter-arguments though...1) the team would like another chance to prove who they are and NOT end the season with a loss...and 2) the bowl travel is more relaxed and fun and it's an experience that the players do not get during regular season road games OR the conference championship game OR the CFP quarterfinals (very much like either a home game or a road game during the regular season). In some ways, it's a free vacation with your friends.
I've already ceded that I don't think a ton of fans will make the game (some have just paid for a conference championship game...and a quarterfinal game (mores for home teams than the visitors--few of them will get tickets to travel))...but I think it can still work. It's a top 15 match-up between two premiere CFB teams...that will get eyeballs around New Year's.
RE: Reconsidering the 8-team playoff model - hawghiggs - 11-24-2016 09:07 AM
I think we need to move back to the BCS. All the BCS needed was more access for G5 programs. If 3 or 4 more bowl games would have been added to the BCS. Then now more teams would have a quality season. Now only one team gets to have a great season.
RE: Reconsidering the 8-team playoff model - MplsBison - 11-24-2016 10:11 AM
TV will balk at auto-bids to the opening round of a bracket. Don't see that happening.
"Quarter-Finals" - traditional bowls played around NY weekend.
Rose - B1G champ v PAC champ
Sugar - SEC champ v B12 champ
Orange - ACC champ v
Fiesta
Cotton
Peach
Citrus
Holiday [upgraded and moved to new LA stadium]
Three contract bowls, plus FIVE access bowls. That gives the P5 champs their traditional slots, a slot to the G5, and then top 10 remaining teams selected in this order: Orange always picks first, then the five access bowls rotating order every year.
After these games are played, the rankings are made one more time. Top 4 teams get in the the semi-finals:
SF 1 - bid out site - #1 v #4 - Jan weekday
SF 2 - bid out site - #2 v #3 - Jan weekday
NC - bid out site - Jan weekday
Win-win-win-win. TV loves it. No argument against it possible.
RE: Reconsidering the 8-team playoff model - ken d - 11-24-2016 10:44 AM
I, too, don't want to see an 8 team playoff.
But, for the sake of argument, you are on the right track, IMO. I don't think you could have a scenario where four of the top teams finish their season in mid-December and don't get the bowl experience. The quarterfinals would be strictly a business trip, not a vacation.
I'm not keen on giving four quarter-finalists home field advantage based on a beauty contest poll (which, let's be honest, is what the CFP selection process is). I would prefer that these games be played in four domed stadiums to minimize the impact of weather on the outcome. I would also play the semifinals and final in a domed stadium as well (with the final at Jerry World).
I would not give the G5 an automatic berth in the playoff. I would have an autobid for any conference champ ranked in the Top 12, and then pick the highest ranked remaining teams to fill out the field. If one of them is a G5 school, they are in.
I would, however, guarantee a spot in an NY6 bowl to the G5 if they don't qualify for the playoff. I personally don't care if that is a league champion or not.
I would schedule the semifinals on the Thursday and Friday nights immediately before the start of the NFL playoffs, and the championship on the Monday night following the second NFL playoff weekend. This year, that would be 1/5 and 1/6 for the semis and 1/16 for the finals. I don't see a need to add another bowl to the New Year's lineup.
RE: Reconsidering the 8-team playoff model - stever20 - 11-24-2016 11:25 AM
they aren't going to do a plus 3 there Bison. It's going to be a fully bracketed 8 team setup. The 8 teams would be selected after the regular season. I know you love your tradition, but the folks in charge aren't beholden to it anywhere near as much as you are or you think they are. TV has ZERO interest in that setup.
RE: Reconsidering the 8-team playoff model - MplsBison - 11-24-2016 11:44 AM
Maybe
RE: Reconsidering the 8-team playoff model - RUScarlets - 11-24-2016 11:44 AM
Finals that week. Don't see how you play a full slate of Saturday games. Also the NFL slips in a Saturday prime time game that weekend. Think again if you think they are moving for a CFP game.
The solution is to go to a P4 model and eliminate the G5. If that is permanently off the table, you eliminate the CCG's and play four regional QF games seeded 1-8. Atlanta, Indy, DC, Santa Clara/LA, JerryWorld, all good locations. As far as prep time, maybe, MAYBE move Army up 1st week of December and then play the QF round the second week of December, so everybody else gets a universal bye after 12 games to prepare for exams plus you give fans prep time to make the road trip. The NFL can play an additional Saturday game week 14 following Army Navy.
CCG's have to be eliminated before you lock in an 8 team playoff. There are too many problems pertaining to weight of OOC schedule and interdivision scheduling to permit otherwise. Ie) Wisconsin getting screwed by playing both UM and OSU in the same year. Also OOC scheduling is meaningless with automatic bids.
RE: Reconsidering the 8-team playoff model - stever20 - 11-24-2016 11:50 AM
(11-24-2016 11:44 AM)RUScarlets Wrote: Finals that week. Don't see how you play a full slate of Saturday games. Also the NFL slips in a Saturday prime time game that weekend. Think again if you think they are moving for a CFP game.
The solution is to go to a P4 model and eliminate the G5. If that is permanently off the table, you eliminate the CCG's and play four regional QF games seeded 1-8. Atlanta, Indy, DC, Santa Clara/LA, JerryWorld, all good locations. As far as prep time, maybe, MAYBE move Army up 1st week of December and then play the QF round the second week of December, so everybody else gets a universal bye after 12 games to prepare for exams plus you give fans prep time to make the road trip. The NFL can play an additional Saturday game week 14 following Army Navy.
CCG's have to be eliminated before you lock in an 8 team playoff. There are too many problems pertaining to weight of OOC schedule and interdivision scheduling to permit otherwise. Ie) Wisconsin getting screwed by playing both UM and OSU in the same year and getting left out behind a 12-1 Washington. Also OOC scheduling is meaningless with automatic bids.
This year though shows why TV won't want to go strictly like that. In your set up, Ohio St would be out. No way in hell is TV interested in Ohio St being out right now. And moreso if we went to 8. TV WANTS at large spots in any setup.
RE: Reconsidering the 8-team playoff model - toddjnsn - 11-24-2016 12:50 PM
I can't see a playoff loser in the 1st round going to a BCS Bowl. :) Now, for a high-end-but-not-NY6/BCS-level one, I could see that. I would just think they'd be eligible for any of those under.
I like the idea of 8-team playoffS *being* bowls -- kind of like NCAA basketball, where you have 4 different tournaments, with the Big one, obviously.
Maybe a 12-team playoff as the National Championship Playoff (top 4 getting a bye), then all the rest are 8-team playoffs. Would be Much more fulfilling.
But yes, right now -- it sucks. The 4 team "Play Off" isn't a real playoff. It's a final four when there was no playoff leading up to it. You need 8 teams minimum to have a real Playoff.
Right now, it's just the same as it was in the last years of the BCS days. They had Top 2 Bowls. The winners of each just didn't play each other, is the only difference (and making the winner of the #1 of the 2 bowls, the national champion).
RE: Reconsidering the 8-team playoff model - westwolf - 11-24-2016 01:03 PM
No expansion to 8 without auto bids for P5 champs.
RE: Reconsidering the 8-team playoff model - allthatyoucantleavebehind - 11-24-2016 01:29 PM
(11-24-2016 11:44 AM)RUScarlets Wrote: Finals that week. Don't see how you play a full slate of Saturday games. Also the NFL slips in a Saturday prime time game that weekend. Think again if you think they are moving for a CFP game.
The solution is to go to a P4 model and eliminate the G5. If that is permanently off the table, you eliminate the CCG's and play four regional QF games seeded 1-8. Atlanta, Indy, DC, Santa Clara/LA, JerryWorld, all good locations. As far as prep time, maybe, MAYBE move Army up 1st week of December and then play the QF round the second week of December, so everybody else gets a universal bye after 12 games to prepare for exams plus you give fans prep time to make the road trip. The NFL can play an additional Saturday game week 14 following Army Navy.
CCG's have to be eliminated before you lock in an 8 team playoff. There are too many problems pertaining to weight of OOC schedule and interdivision scheduling to permit otherwise. Ie) Wisconsin getting screwed by playing both UM and OSU in the same year. Also OOC scheduling is meaningless with automatic bids.
You're confusing a model that "makes sense" with a model that is possible.
The conferences will not surrender their power/money to a new system. The CFP as it currently exists exists because it makes MORE money for the conferences.
I like the idea of quarterfinals in home stadiums...and in whatever weather God brings at gametime. Imagine Florida playing in snow in Michigan...or USC on a 15 degree day in State College, PA. And the advantage of being at home for round 1 would make the regular season significant still. Yes, it'd be selected by a committee, but they haven't shown me that they are idiots or shills yet. So far, they've done a difficult job very well.
RE: Reconsidering the 8-team playoff model - stever20 - 11-24-2016 01:40 PM
(11-24-2016 01:29 PM)allthatyoucantleavebehind Wrote:(11-24-2016 11:44 AM)RUScarlets Wrote: Finals that week. Don't see how you play a full slate of Saturday games. Also the NFL slips in a Saturday prime time game that weekend. Think again if you think they are moving for a CFP game.
The solution is to go to a P4 model and eliminate the G5. If that is permanently off the table, you eliminate the CCG's and play four regional QF games seeded 1-8. Atlanta, Indy, DC, Santa Clara/LA, JerryWorld, all good locations. As far as prep time, maybe, MAYBE move Army up 1st week of December and then play the QF round the second week of December, so everybody else gets a universal bye after 12 games to prepare for exams plus you give fans prep time to make the road trip. The NFL can play an additional Saturday game week 14 following Army Navy.
CCG's have to be eliminated before you lock in an 8 team playoff. There are too many problems pertaining to weight of OOC schedule and interdivision scheduling to permit otherwise. Ie) Wisconsin getting screwed by playing both UM and OSU in the same year. Also OOC scheduling is meaningless with automatic bids.
You're confusing a model that "makes sense" with a model that is possible.
The conferences will not surrender their power/money to a new system. The CFP as it currently exists exists because it makes MORE money for the conferences.
I like the idea of quarterfinals in home stadiums...and in whatever weather God brings at gametime. Imagine Florida playing in snow in Michigan...or USC on a 15 degree day in State College, PA. And the advantage of being at home for round 1 would make the regular season significant still. Yes, it'd be selected by a committee, but they haven't shown me that they are idiots or shills yet. So far, they've done a difficult job very well.
The 1 thing I would say- the committee has done a job pretty well so far. BUT, they haven't had anything close to the scenario we're looking at this season. And if Michigan beats Ohio St, it could be very easy this season yet again.
RE: Reconsidering the 8-team playoff model - ken d - 11-24-2016 02:10 PM
(11-24-2016 01:40 PM)stever20 Wrote:(11-24-2016 01:29 PM)allthatyoucantleavebehind Wrote:(11-24-2016 11:44 AM)RUScarlets Wrote: Finals that week. Don't see how you play a full slate of Saturday games. Also the NFL slips in a Saturday prime time game that weekend. Think again if you think they are moving for a CFP game.
The solution is to go to a P4 model and eliminate the G5. If that is permanently off the table, you eliminate the CCG's and play four regional QF games seeded 1-8. Atlanta, Indy, DC, Santa Clara/LA, JerryWorld, all good locations. As far as prep time, maybe, MAYBE move Army up 1st week of December and then play the QF round the second week of December, so everybody else gets a universal bye after 12 games to prepare for exams plus you give fans prep time to make the road trip. The NFL can play an additional Saturday game week 14 following Army Navy.
CCG's have to be eliminated before you lock in an 8 team playoff. There are too many problems pertaining to weight of OOC schedule and interdivision scheduling to permit otherwise. Ie) Wisconsin getting screwed by playing both UM and OSU in the same year. Also OOC scheduling is meaningless with automatic bids.
You're confusing a model that "makes sense" with a model that is possible.
The conferences will not surrender their power/money to a new system. The CFP as it currently exists exists because it makes MORE money for the conferences.
I like the idea of quarterfinals in home stadiums...and in whatever weather God brings at gametime. Imagine Florida playing in snow in Michigan...or USC on a 15 degree day in State College, PA. And the advantage of being at home for round 1 would make the regular season significant still. Yes, it'd be selected by a committee, but they haven't shown me that they are idiots or shills yet. So far, they've done a difficult job very well.
The 1 thing I would say- the committee has done a job pretty well so far. BUT, they haven't had anything close to the scenario we're looking at this season. And if Michigan beats Ohio St, it could be very easy this season yet again.
This year it's entirely possible there won't be many P5 teams with fewer than 3 losses. If the committee had to pick 3 at large teams this year, you could either argue that they couldn't get it wrong or that they couldn't get it right.
Let's say your choices are among 2 loss teams like Penn State, Louisville, West Virginia and Nebraska and 3 loss teams like Wisconsin, Colorado, Oklahoma State, USC, Florida State and Florida. You could make a good case for or against every one of them.
I'm OK staying at 4.
Reconsidering the 8-team playoff model - JHS55 - 11-24-2016 02:27 PM
I think the college football committee has done a horrible job
A real playoff is the only way IMO
RE: Reconsidering the 8-team playoff model - stever20 - 11-24-2016 02:44 PM
(11-24-2016 02:10 PM)ken d Wrote:(11-24-2016 01:40 PM)stever20 Wrote:(11-24-2016 01:29 PM)allthatyoucantleavebehind Wrote:(11-24-2016 11:44 AM)RUScarlets Wrote: Finals that week. Don't see how you play a full slate of Saturday games. Also the NFL slips in a Saturday prime time game that weekend. Think again if you think they are moving for a CFP game.
The solution is to go to a P4 model and eliminate the G5. If that is permanently off the table, you eliminate the CCG's and play four regional QF games seeded 1-8. Atlanta, Indy, DC, Santa Clara/LA, JerryWorld, all good locations. As far as prep time, maybe, MAYBE move Army up 1st week of December and then play the QF round the second week of December, so everybody else gets a universal bye after 12 games to prepare for exams plus you give fans prep time to make the road trip. The NFL can play an additional Saturday game week 14 following Army Navy.
CCG's have to be eliminated before you lock in an 8 team playoff. There are too many problems pertaining to weight of OOC schedule and interdivision scheduling to permit otherwise. Ie) Wisconsin getting screwed by playing both UM and OSU in the same year. Also OOC scheduling is meaningless with automatic bids.
You're confusing a model that "makes sense" with a model that is possible.
The conferences will not surrender their power/money to a new system. The CFP as it currently exists exists because it makes MORE money for the conferences.
I like the idea of quarterfinals in home stadiums...and in whatever weather God brings at gametime. Imagine Florida playing in snow in Michigan...or USC on a 15 degree day in State College, PA. And the advantage of being at home for round 1 would make the regular season significant still. Yes, it'd be selected by a committee, but they haven't shown me that they are idiots or shills yet. So far, they've done a difficult job very well.
The 1 thing I would say- the committee has done a job pretty well so far. BUT, they haven't had anything close to the scenario we're looking at this season. And if Michigan beats Ohio St, it could be very easy this season yet again.
This year it's entirely possible there won't be many P5 teams with fewer than 3 losses. If the committee had to pick 3 at large teams this year, you could either argue that they couldn't get it wrong or that they couldn't get it right.
Let's say your choices are among 2 loss teams like Penn State, Louisville, West Virginia and Nebraska and 3 loss teams like Wisconsin, Colorado, Oklahoma State, USC, Florida State and Florida. You could make a good case for or against every one of them.
I'm OK staying at 4.
Well lets look at just 1 thing. 2 loss team like Penn St. Means either they won the Big Ten OR Michigan beats Ohio St. Regardless, you have 2 Big Ten teams in easily no matter what.
You have Clemson. That's 3.
You have Alabama. That's 4.
You have Oklahoma. That's 5.
You have Washington. That's 6.
You have Michigan or Ohio St loser. That's 7. Yes, 3 teams from Big Ten in.
I have no problem at all if either a G5 team OR USC got in.
RE: Reconsidering the 8-team playoff model - bullet - 11-24-2016 03:57 PM
I like the quarterfinals at the home fields as you suggest. But the losers simply will not want to play again, even against each other. They killed the basketball consolation games and that took a lot less preparation. So the semi-finals are on NYD with the finals the same time as now. You basically just add the quarterfinals between the end of the season and NYD. It gets rid of a lot of the rustiness that infects bowl games. And you get a lot of the subjectivity out of it. I think there is an excellent chance TCU would have won everything in 2014. But they didn't get a shot. Having the P5 conference champs all make the playoffs enhances the regular season as more teams have a shot and the conference title really means something.
More likely is probably having a NY6 with 4 of the 6 being playoff games. They probably do a neutral site semi-final that won't be attended well vs. the logistical problems of a home field semi-final (which makes sense in every other way). That pushes the title game back one week.
RE: Reconsidering the 8-team playoff model - Scoochpooch - 11-24-2016 04:19 PM
(11-24-2016 08:22 AM)allthatyoucantleavebehind Wrote: I think that Army/Navy game needs to move. I think that's going to come up this year...because Navy's bowl fate might depend on their 12th game with Army. But that's kind of beside the point...
I agree that their motivation will be way down if they lose the CFP quarters.
Counter-arguments though...1) the team would like another chance to prove who they are and NOT end the season with a loss...and 2) the bowl travel is more relaxed and fun and it's an experience that the players do not get during regular season road games OR the conference championship game OR the CFP quarterfinals (very much like either a home game or a road game during the regular season). In some ways, it's a free vacation with your friends.
I've already ceded that I don't think a ton of fans will make the game (some have just paid for a conference championship game...and a quarterfinal game (mores for home teams than the visitors--few of them will get tickets to travel))...but I think it can still work. It's a top 15 match-up between two premiere CFB teams...that will get eyeballs around New Year's.
Army/Navy game is never moving. If the NCAA or CFP Committee tries to force them, Navy will just go back to Indy.
RE: Reconsidering the 8-team playoff model - Scoochpooch - 11-24-2016 04:25 PM
(11-24-2016 02:27 PM)JHS55 Wrote: I think the college football committee has done a horrible job
A real playoff is the only way IMO
Yup, 128 team playoff, your dream scenario and everyone else's nightmare.